General Election

T.R.O.Y wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

The ONLY solution is to have a new (not second!) referendum where the choices are accept Boris's deal or remain.

Because those are the choices in the real world.

Are you aware that what you’re describing is essentially Labour’s policy? Except they’d renegotiate Boris’s deal to be far less damaging and put that to the people alongside remain.

TBH they haven't made that clear to the electorate at all.

Can’t agree with that personally. But now you know will you be voting for it?

T.R.O.Y wrote:Can’t agree with that personally. But now you know will you be voting for it?

I've got to arrange a postal vote as I'll be in South East Asia throughout December. I'll vote tactically depending on which candidate has the best chance of deposing the incumbent Tory who is a cock of the first order, but TBH there's little chance of that happening in this rural farming community where they are panicking about Brexit but will always go with party allegiances for a GE.
As mentioned, they see the GE and Brexit as completely separate issues so I anticipate voting along party lines rather than issues.

Both Labour and Conservatives likely to take public spending up to 1970s levels whoever wins according to this. How it will be funded is the question especially as the Tories also plan to promise tax cuts. I think most of us remember how it panned out in the 70s.
And in a pre-emptive move to prevent more broken election promises, Chris Hopson has asked the parties not to use the NHS as a political weapon again here.

I'm sitting in my bunker, with my tin hat and bullshit deflectors on during this campaign. I have a feeling that nobody will be happy with whatever the outcome.
The one thing I really don't want to see is a second referendum. How can we completely ignore the first one, when so many politicians are blatantly ignoring their constituencies, let alone their oath/promise to observe Article 50 they had signed up to? 
In many ways democracy has been dealt a severe blow, from which we are now seeing the fallout. The political future isn't good I fear, whatever your leanings.

A lot of promises being made about the NHS and free TV licences, and I wish they'd just shut up. We're not stupid.
Just the usual empty promises on both sides.

gloswhite wrote:I'm sitting in my bunker, with my tin hat and bullshit deflectors on during this campaign. I have a feeling that nobody will be happy with whatever the outcome.
The one thing I really don't want to see is a second referendum. How can we completely ignore the first one, when so many politicians are blatantly ignoring their constituencies, let alone their oath/promise to observe Article 50 they had signed up to? 
In many ways democracy has been dealt a severe blow, from which we are now seeing the fallout. The political future isn't good I fear, whatever your leanings.

A second referendum makes perfect sense and was the preference of far more people than a general election.

We need a second referendum now that we know the terms of the deal, which were never made clear before the 2016 referendum. It would provide us with an answer unlike a general election which could just give us another hung parliament with no party having a majority.

Promising stuff is the easy bit as there's always a ready made excuse e.g. "the economic circumstances have changed" when they don't deliver on them so in essence there's no sanction other than the next election on anything they promise.
And given that once elected it is usually a 4 year term - plenty of time to forget - and that Brits vote dogmatically along party lines anyway for the most part, they might as well promise us everything because they will never be held to account.

What they never promise is to ensure that all expenditure proposed will be matched by the necessary tax rises to pay for it.

And I have every sympathy for the NHS guy's statement. The NHS is used as a political football because it's a sentimental subject dear to our hearts but when push comes to shove it has been attacked from all sides, with any promises of money being based on previous promises that weren't delivered i.e. not "new money" and now the threat of staff shortages due to changes in the immigration laws, the falling pound and the removal of free movement. I wish they'd just leave the NHS out of it and give them a chance of survival - much better than Boris opening the door to private sector American companies who will strip it to the bones.

Here's an interesting angle on Brexit as a political message for the election:

All 10 of the local authority areas with the steepest jumps in the number of people out of work and claiming benefits in the year to the end of September overwhelmingly backed Brexit.

Teignbridge in Devon (79.3% Leave) has seen its claimant count rise almost 110% from 565 to 1,185 — a higher percentage rise than anywhere else.

The Lincolnshire town of Boston (77.2% Leave) known for its high level of migrant workers, has seen the claimant count jump 83.5% from 605 to 1,110.

Two towns in Kent, Sevenoaks (80.6% Leave) and Dartford (75.5% Leave) have also seen rises in unemployment of more than 80%.


Say what you like folks but the words "turkeys" and "Christmas" spring to mind.

Of course those turkeys have been fed a diet of nothing but lies about the EU for decades by the Sun, Mail, Telegraph, Express, etc. They do so love their bendy bananas and prawn cocktail flavour crisps.

xmiles wrote:Of course those turkeys have been fed a diet of nothing but lies about the EU for decades by the Sun, Mail, Telegraph, Express, etc. They do so love their bendy bananas and prawn cocktail flavour crisps.

Not forgetting the square tins of beans.

Whoops! The mask slips:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50283520

xmiles wrote:Whoops! The mask slips:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50283520

Why do so many Tory's still dress like Derek Batey?

No prizes for guessing why Boris wants this report suppressed:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50294569

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I'm sitting in my bunker, with my tin hat and bullshit deflectors on during this campaign. I have a feeling that nobody will be happy with whatever the outcome.
The one thing I really don't want to see is a second referendum. How can we completely ignore the first one, when so many politicians are blatantly ignoring their constituencies, let alone their oath/promise to observe Article 50 they had signed up to? 
In many ways democracy has been dealt a severe blow, from which we are now seeing the fallout. The political future isn't good I fear, whatever your leanings.

A second referendum makes perfect sense and was the preference of far more people than a general election.

We need a second referendum now that we know the terms of the deal, which were never made clear before the 2016 referendum. It would provide us with an answer unlike a general election which could just give us another hung parliament with no party having a majority.

How can we really know the terms of the deal when our future relationship with the EU has still to be sorted out? We know the general framework, but not much more. To me, a second referendum shows that our politicians were unable to agree  and have reneged on their promises, and handed it back to what is a largely uninformed public. Its a cop-out no matter how you look at it.

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I'm sitting in my bunker, with my tin hat and bullshit deflectors on during this campaign. I have a feeling that nobody will be happy with whatever the outcome.
The one thing I really don't want to see is a second referendum. How can we completely ignore the first one, when so many politicians are blatantly ignoring their constituencies, let alone their oath/promise to observe Article 50 they had signed up to? 
In many ways democracy has been dealt a severe blow, from which we are now seeing the fallout. The political future isn't good I fear, whatever your leanings.

A second referendum makes perfect sense and was the preference of far more people than a general election.

We need a second referendum now that we know the terms of the deal, which were never made clear before the 2016 referendum. It would provide us with an answer unlike a general election which could just give us another hung parliament with no party having a majority.

How can we really know the terms of the deal when our future relationship with the EU has still to be sorted out? We know the general framework, but not much more. To me, a second referendum shows that our politicians were unable to agree  and have reneged on their promises, and handed it back to what is a largely uninformed public. Its a cop-out no matter how you look at it.

We know the terms of Boris' deal (slightly worse than May's and unacceptable to the DUP). Why is it not reasonable to put this to people in a referendum?

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I'm sitting in my bunker, with my tin hat and bullshit deflectors on during this campaign. I have a feeling that nobody will be happy with whatever the outcome.
The one thing I really don't want to see is a second referendum. How can we completely ignore the first one, when so many politicians are blatantly ignoring their constituencies, let alone their oath/promise to observe Article 50 they had signed up to? 
In many ways democracy has been dealt a severe blow, from which we are now seeing the fallout. The political future isn't good I fear, whatever your leanings.

A second referendum makes perfect sense and was the preference of far more people than a general election.

We need a second referendum now that we know the terms of the deal, which were never made clear before the 2016 referendum. It would provide us with an answer unlike a general election which could just give us another hung parliament with no party having a majority.

How can we really know the terms of the deal when our future relationship with the EU has still to be sorted out? We know the general framework, but not much more. To me, a second referendum shows that our politicians were unable to agree  and have reneged on their promises, and handed it back to what is a largely uninformed public. Its a cop-out no matter how you look at it.

It's not as if - as discussed above - breaking election promises made in order to get into power is not the norm and I don't see how Brexit is any different. Only today the Government Watchdog reported on this - a Tory promise 5 years ago to build 200 thousand "starter homes" to help sort the housing crisis and get young people on the ladder and as of today they have built a total of ZERO.
That didn't stop the Government responding with a statement on how excellent their housing record is  

If, as seems to be the case, most election promises are meaningless all we are left with is a choice between what lies we prefer to hear and perhaps a preference in the general direction of travel we would like our Government to go in. Personally I'd like to see more spending on public services and the protection of pensions rather than tax cuts for the rich and tearing up the great international trade deals we already have in place - deals that have taken 40 years and more to put into place and to bring us to the point where we have the cheapest food in Europe and a relatively vibrant economy.

Pay more tax then.

He probably wouldn't need to if the rich paid their fair share of tax.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:Pay more tax then.

That's the real world and yes if folk want more services they should pay for it. No problem with that and I can't imagine anyone would have a problem if it's fair.

Glos wrote:How can we really know the terms of the deal when our future relationship with the EU has still to be sorted out?

We definitely  know what deal  and what influence we have in the relationship we already have as members of the EU compared to some vague promises from the Brexiteers who seem to be going to great lengths to hide exactly what they've agreed.
Are you really suggesting that a vague promise and a shady cover up are better than the great deal already in the bag and our future influence as a member of the world's third largest trading bloc with the purchasing power that brings?
I certainly wouldn't be sacrificing that for chlorinated chicken, higher prices, a devalued currency, a defunct NHS and widespread unemployment.