The Hillsborough tragedy.

sorry, but I get would up on the whole blame culture we have now... Sheffield police's budget is going to get swallowed up by 96 compensation claims now.

you may think im being nasty, but it wasn't just the police at fault - the fans knowingly travelled without tickets and sneaked in to the ground, yes - some of them WOULD have been drunk, not that that matters to much, we all know how much of a bunch of gobshites the travelling Liverpool fans can be dont we? or did the idiot element not turn out that day?

yes, the police and the stewards SHOULD have handled it better, but ALL the blame cannot be pointed at the authorities - ok, the fans who died were quite possibly ticket holding, innocent fans, but one of the main root-causes of their deaths was becasue hundreds of non-ticket holding fans, travelled to the game and forced there way in to the stand? was this the fault of the police and stewards? not really...

im going to get ripped apart for this, but im sticking by my guns... I wont post on the subject if it offends anyone, which it undoubtedly will - because ive dared to express my own opinion on a touchy subject that is not in line with the current train of thought that the 'authorities murdered 96 Liverpool fans'

I'm with you rebel. It's too easy to blame the cop's.

looks like its not just me who think the government have copped-out to stop them from insistently winging and milking it for all its worth...

http://www.burndenaces.co.uk/forum/general-banter-other-football/th-scourser-love-in-debate/

It's not about blaming the cops it's about their dishonesty. 164 statements were significantly altered to hide their incompetence. They also actively tried to lay all the blame on the fans, the vast majority of whom were sober and had tickets and did nothing wrong. The coroner was also negligent and authorised blood tests on every corpse, including children, to try to find high levels of alcohol. No such evidence was found.

It is the job of the police to organise the handling of large crowds and they failed to do this properly.

For what its worth I have no connection or particular sympathy with Liverpool.

Reebok_Rebel wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:So the fans did nothing wrong.

honestly i don't understand it and never will.

we live in a society of blame...

if anybody dies, regardless of how... its SOMEBODY'S fault, it has to be, otherwise there would be nobody to claim compensation from...

Was it ok for the policeman that got £330,000 for post traumatic stress disorder 9 years after Hillsborough?

OneOinCoyle wrote:

Reebok_Rebel wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:So the fans did nothing wrong.

honestly i don't understand it and never will.

we live in a society of blame...

if anybody dies, regardless of how... its SOMEBODY'S fault, it has to be, otherwise there would be nobody to claim compensation from...

Was it ok for the policeman that got £330,000 for post traumatic stress disorder 9 years after Hillsborough?

you mean this guy?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/mar/02/football.angeliquechrisafis

no...

its another example of the tragedy being milked... this time by a copper, but its milking nonetheless...

Just been watching it on the news, feel very emotional after hearing what now really happened.

Can understand now why the family's of the deceased continued to fight for the Truth.

Still think it's pretty sad that you think they have been seeking justice for 23 years just to make a few quid from losing their loved ones.

The emergency services just like squaddies should not be allowed compensation for trauma. It comes with the territory. I was quite shocked at some of the findings to be honest.Only one ambulance at the scene ? I think the fact that the previous semi-final the year before, passed without incident may have led to some complacency among the senior policemen on duty that day.

One or two red herrings need to be dispelled. Back then football hooliganism was still rampant. Fans were penned into terraces like cattle, and steel barriers were there to prevent fans invading the pitch. This was commonplace throughout most football grounds and what happened at Hillsborough could in theory have happened at any other ground.

The Leppings Lane terrace capacity was 2,200 and it is estimated that over 3,000 liverpool fans were cramped into the enclosure. Clearly some of those fans who rushed in just before 3pm could not have been in possession of legitimate tickets. The crowd was so tightly packed on the concourse to such an extent that a mounted Police Sergeant requested the main gates to the stand be opened to avoid serious casualties. The Chief Superintendent, David Dukinfield was newly promoted and had never been in charge of an FA Cup semi final before. He gave the order for the main gates to be opened and hundreds of fans teemed through which ultimately caused those nearest to the barriers to become crushed and trapped.

The police initially thought the Liverpool fans were fighting among themselves and it took several minutes for them to realise what was really happening. Back then, the police had no cutting equipment to remove the barriers. They were as powerless as the fans on the other side of the barrier. As for the Paramedics ? Back then there were very few genuine Paramedics. Ambulance drivers were just that. They had basic first aid skills but none of the lifesaving equipment of the modern day Paramedic.

Once the authorities realised the full horror of what had occurred a damage limitation exercise took place. We now know that the original statements submitted by officers at the scene were later altered to put the blame on the Liverpool fans. The fact that those statements still exist show that the original accounts were truthful and they were only altered at a later date to divert the blame away from the emergency services.

The most worrying aspect of the tragedy is that every successive Government from the Thatcher reign onwards must have been privy to what really happened. Every single one of them were complicit in this cover up. Call Me Dave has come out with an apology today even though he would have known the real sequence of events shortly after he took the reigns of power. Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown all knew the truth but were content to stay silent. I find it incredibly disturbing that neither the Tory or Labour party were prepared for the truth to come out. What does that say about our politicians?

The Taylor report which brought about the introduction of all seater stadia was the right and proper thing to do. It took a tragedy like Hillsborough for the authorities to see the light. It's no consolation to the victims of the 96 who died but football stadiums are now far safer than they used to be.

What does "justice" look like for the families of the deceased?

I can't see any particular demands, aside of "justice"

I can only assume that the posters on here are Sun readers and are attempting to put the blame for this disaster on Liverpool supporters, is it because they are from Liverpool that makes them feel so confident they were to blame? Anyway a couple or very good articles in today's Independent (which you will not find in the phone hacking lying Sun) I have copied a bit but there is much more.
A statement on behalf of the HFSG, said: "The findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel have finally vindicated the families in their 23-year struggle to establish the truth.
"However, after truth must come justice. We have spoken today to our lawyers and taken initial advice.
"As the families have always believed and insisted, it was the actions and inaction of those in authority that caused the deaths at Hillsborough n April 15, 1989.
"The fans did not contribute to the tragedy. Any blame previously laid at their door has been shown to be part of a despicable conspiracy by those in authority to tarnish the reputations of the dead, the survivors of the disaster and the people of Liverpool. This conspiracy has been revealed for what it is; a bid to avoid accountability.
"Those responsible can avoid accountability no longer."
The statement said the families strongly condemn the comments made this week by Sir Norman Bettison and describes the "monumental" scale of the wrongdoing and cover up that will leave an "indelible stain on the reputations of those authorities in whom the public implicitly placed their trust."

Also a very good piece from Andy Burnham a Labour MP who got the whole thing back on the agenda.

Now the truth is out, the fight for justice is starting in earnest. I won't be able to rest until we have overturned the inquest verdict of "accidental death". I'm no lawyer but the centrality of the safety certificate issue – that the authorities knew Hillsborough was not a legally certified safe venue – means "unlawful killing" must be a real possibility.

Other questions need to be answered as we digest the panel's comprehensive report. Will individuals now be held properly accountable for unforgivably blaming the survivors of a tragedy? If the authorities were aware of a cover-up, why didn't they do something about it? How did Parliament allow injustice on this scale to stand for so long? Was it in part down to the anti-Liverpool feeling that was stoked by some politicians and the London-based media in the past two decades?

The families will never achieve closure, but, for now, they can at least find some comfort in truth.that the authorities knew Hillsborough was not a legally certified safe venue – means "unlawful killing" must be a real possibility.

NOT A LEGALLY CERTIFIED SAFE VENUE. This is the fault of the scousers I assume. Not something the Sun reported in much detail.



No apologies for the length of the piece. I just hope the Sun readers have the mental concentration to read for more than three lines (and without photos of tits).

chipbutty wrote:I can only assume that the posters on here are Sun readers and are attempting to put the blame for this disaster on Liverpool supporters, is it because they are from Liverpool that makes them feel so confident they were to blame? Anyway a couple or very good articles in today's Independent (which you will not find in the phone hacking lying Sun) I have copied a bit but there is much more.
A statement on behalf of the HFSG, said: "The findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel have finally vindicated the families in their 23-year struggle to establish the truth.
"However, after truth must come justice. We have spoken today to our lawyers and taken initial advice.
"As the families have always believed and insisted, it was the actions and inaction of those in authority that caused the deaths at Hillsborough n April 15, 1989.
"The fans did not contribute to the tragedy. Any blame previously laid at their door has been shown to be part of a despicable conspiracy by those in authority to tarnish the reputations of the dead, the survivors of the disaster and the people of Liverpool. This conspiracy has been revealed for what it is; a bid to avoid accountability.
"Those responsible can avoid accountability no longer."
The statement said the families strongly condemn the comments made this week by Sir Norman Bettison and describes the "monumental" scale of the wrongdoing and cover up that will leave an "indelible stain on the reputations of those authorities in whom the public implicitly placed their trust."

Also a very good piece from Andy Burnham a Labour MP who got the whole thing back on the agenda.

Now the truth is out, the fight for justice is starting in earnest. I won't be able to rest until we have overturned the inquest verdict of "accidental death". I'm no lawyer but the centrality of the safety certificate issue – that the authorities knew Hillsborough was not a legally certified safe venue – means "unlawful killing" must be a real possibility.

Other questions need to be answered as we digest the panel's comprehensive report. Will individuals now be held properly accountable for unforgivably blaming the survivors of a tragedy? If the authorities were aware of a cover-up, why didn't they do something about it? How did Parliament allow injustice on this scale to stand for so long? Was it in part down to the anti-Liverpool feeling that was stoked by some politicians and the London-based media in the past two decades?

The families will never achieve closure, but, for now, they can at least find some comfort in truth.that the authorities knew Hillsborough was not a legally certified safe venue – means "unlawful killing" must be a real possibility.

NOT A LEGALLY CERTIFIED SAFE VENUE. This is the fault of the scousers I assume. Not something the Sun reported in much detail.



No apologies for the length of the piece. I just hope the Sun readers have the mental concentration to read for more than three lines (and without photos of tits).

Thanks for that.


I still don't see what they want as "justice"?

Do they really want to put the goodwill at risk in pusuing every person in authority who made the wrong decision on that day? Do they want people locked up? Who?

Is it about revenge?

Is it about compensation?


Why might they want to know that their child might not have died before 3.15pm? And could have saved if the authorities had been up to the job?

At some stage, it will be better for them to move on.

I think what they want is the inquest verdict over turned and a new inquest.

And who can blame them.

chipbutty wrote:I think what they want is the inquest verdict over turned and a new inquest.

And who can blame them.

Not me

Is that all they want, do you think? Will that = justice?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-families-truth-justice

I find Liverpool FC intensely irritating, but feel over the moon for them finally seeing the truth come out.
If it had been Man Utd, Newcastle, Arsenal, Chelsea, City or any other club of that magnitude playing Forest at Hillsborough that day, you'd have had the exact same situation - a load of pissed up loonies turning up ticketless. It will have happened countless times throughout history where that number of people have turned up drunk and ticketless and nobody has ended up dead.

The police failed to provide their duty of care, but that isn't what I'd want to see action taken in relation to - it's their setting out to demonise others to cover up for their incompetence.

doffcocker wrote:I find Liverpool FC intensely irritating, but feel over the moon for them finally seeing the truth come out.
If it had been Man Utd, Newcastle, Arsenal, Chelsea, City or any other club of that magnitude playing Forest at Hillsborough that day, you'd have had the exact same situation - a load of pissed up loonies turning up ticketless. It will have happened countless times throughout history where that number of people have turned up drunk and ticketless and nobody has ended up dead.

The police failed to provide their duty of care, but that isn't what I'd want to see action taken in relation to - it's their setting out to demonise others to cover up for their incompetence.

can't disagree with that

Everybody fucked up big style that day. For me the Authorities made some massive errors of judgement. The outcome was already expected. Maybe what wasn't expected was that the fans were totally absolved of any blame. I find that very hard to believe. Having seen at first hand how Liverpool fans have behaved in trying to get into other stadia without tickets, and the lengths that they will go to in order to get into a game for free, I certainly believe that at least a few hundred -if not more- Liverpool fans contributed to this disaster, and should hold there hands up to that fact instead of blaming everyone except themselves.

^^^ this...

It's rather worrying that Hillsborough had not been granted a safety certificate by Sheffield Council and yet the FA still allowed the tie to go ahead there.

Had the police held their hands up and said they got it wrong by opening the gates then things might be different. Had they not opened the gates then there is no doubt that there could have been casualties on the concourse.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. The altering or finely tuning of statements reflects badly on the senior management of South Yorks police at that time because it is apparent that the original statements submitted by the officers in the stadium were scathing of senior management and their lack of organisation.

Both sides were to blame, obviously the cover up should never have happened but for all these fans wanting justice I bet you can't find me a liverpool fan who turned up on the day without a ticket but still forced their way into the ground.