Hillsborough

Seriously,

I'm sick to the fucking back teeth about it. I'm sorry they died, the police made a couple of mistakes, Maggie's 'lets cage all football fans' policy didn't help but ultimately, if thousands of pissed up scousers hadn't turned up and forced their way in... they would NEVER have died.

Get over it, face the fact that your own fans were just as much at fault as the police were.

You got your compo, you got the statements changed... how much more 'justice' do you want? Maggie Thatcher is dead... so one issue solved. If we hang a few policemen outside Anfield and give you £10million of taxpayers money each - will you shut the fuck up about it then?

Nowadays its just a pathetic bandwagon Liverpool fans jump on. Slag me off all you want, but they are milking it. More died in the Burnden park Disaster (same thing as Hillsborough) and at the Valley Parade fire - both of these were caused by human error or neglect by SOMEBODY, yet they never get a mention.

  

I can't believe I'm going to say this but I totally agree.

The police are an easy target, and of course mistakes were made, but the main fault lies with the people who entered the ground without tickets.

It's awful to lose anyone dear to you, but particularly when it could have easily been avoided, and I understand the families need to blame someone - but the fact is that those to blame are many of the fans they sit with every week at Anfield.

I agree too.

Is it standard practice at an inquest to have relatives bring along big, glossy photos of the departed and deliver a speech about how wonderful and special they were?

I thought that was for funerals and memorial services.

I know it must be terrible to lose a loved one in such circumstances, but come on.......

I think the authorities are giving the families this opportunity to have one last "day in the sun", in the hope that they finally shut the fuck up and let it go, so that we can all move on.

Sorry if that sounds harsh,  but it's getting on my nerves now.

Fuck me I thought I was a lone voice against all the Hillsborough bollocks,they want compensation end of,they are scousers ffs ! How many of the pissed up fans who forced their way in are going to testify at the inquiry,yep not a fucking one.Makes my fucking blood boil every time its mentioned.

How many times throughout history have a load of fans turned up to a match ticketless? Countless.
How many other times did 96 people die? None.

But it's about more than a few coppers that didn't do their jobs properly. It's the lies that were told for years about the Liverpool fans. It made absolute sense for the police to deflect the blame onto a load of pissed up working class people, and that's what they did.
They lied about the gates being forced open, and the scousers were systematically made out to be the scum of the earth.

It's absolutely sickening.

doffcocker wrote:How many times throughout history have a load of fans turned up to a match ticketless? Countless.
How many other times did 96 people die? None.

But it's about more than a few coppers that didn't do their jobs properly. It's the lies that were told for years about the Liverpool fans. It made absolute sense for the police to deflect the blame onto a load of pissed up working class people, and that's what they did.
They lied about the gates being forced open, and the scousers were systematically made out to be the scum of the earth.

It's absolutely sickening.

You utter bellend. You're just another liberal who doesn't think people should be responsible for their own actions.

Answer me this, would there have been a disaster had those ticketless fans stayed in the pub?

What about the poor families that have been waiting years for justice?

scottjames30 wrote:What about the poor families that have been waiting years for justice?

Justice from who though?

The thing for me is, they want all the blame apportioned to the plod and conveniently choose to ignore the fact that Nat keeps making - If there hadn't been a late rush of pissed-up scousers who thought they'd be clever and force the authorities to let them in for free, it would never have happened.

If they at least acknowledged this fact, I'd be more understanding and patient with them.

But they won't, so bollocks to 'em.

Natasha Whittam wrote:Answer me this, would there have been a disaster had those ticketless fans stayed in the pub?

You've missed the point (or more likely ignored it) - 

doffcocker wrote:But it's about more than a few coppers that didn't do their jobs properly. It's the lies that were told for years about the Liverpool fans. It made absolute sense for the police to deflect the blame onto a load of pissed up working class people, and that's what they did. 
They lied about the gates being forced open, and the scousers were systematically made out to be the scum of the earth. 

I get what people are saying, the media and government are afraid to; at least publicly, blame the Liverpool fans in any way as they'll get crucified for it, despite the obvious part they played in it. 

But as Doff says this is about the lies the Police put out to cover themselves and the smear campaign against the fans since it happened. It's a much wider issue than just Hillsborough, the police have been caught up in corruption and lies a lot recently they have to be held accountable.

Hillsborough was an unmitigated disaster from start to finish. Sorry, but the police have to accept a considerable amount of responsibility for what happened and it wouldn't have happened at all if they had acted professionally instead of exercising their prejudices against Liverpool supporters, ignoring the lessons learned in the previous "near-disaster" of '81, and generally behaved like a bunch of smart ass know-it-all's.


Here are some nuggets from the report which came out once the police documents were finally made public:
18. The SYP Operational Order concentrated primarily on the control and regulation of the crowd with no appropriate reference to crowd safety, crushing or evacuation of the stands/terraces.

19. From the documents disclosed to the Panel, the management roles and responsibilities of senior SYP officers were unclear, particularly the lines of communication, decision-making and information exchange between those responsible for policing outside the stadium and the ground commander inside the stadium.

20. There was clear evidence in the build-up to the match, both inside and outside the stadium, that turnstiles serving the Leppings Lane terrace could not process the required number of fans in time for the kick-off. Yet the growing danger was ignored. When the request to delay the kick-off eventually was made, it was considered too late as the teams were on the pitch.

25.From the documents provided to the Panel it is clear that the crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles outside the stadium was not caused by fans arriving 'late' for the kick-off. The turnstiles were inadequate to process the crowd safely, and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground.

Not only was there delay in recognising that there were mass casualties, the major incident plan was not correctly activated and only limited parts were then put into effect. As a result, rescue and recovery efforts were affected by lack of leadership, coordination, prioritisation of casualties and equipment. 

The emergency response to the Hillsborough disaster has not previously been fully examined, because of the assumption that the outcome for those who died was irretrievably fixed long before they could have been helped.

The SYP were incompetent and unprofessional - not unusual in itself - but the hoo-ha was exacerbated because they lied about what happened to cover up their mistakes. Then sections of the press ran with the lies and even expanded on them a bit. The stuff the Sun put out was so disrespectful to the dead and  their relatives, I still cringe when I think about it - especially as most of it wasn't true.

That's why we hear about it so much - it's a story about Police and Media prejudices, lies and cover -ups as much as being about the victims and circumstances of the tragedy.

Here's the relevant bit of the Independent Enquiry report:

The idea that alcohol contributed to the disaster was raised at an early stage, and has proved remarkably durable despite being dismissed by the Taylor Report. The disclosed documents confirm the repeated attempts that were made to find supporting evidence for this. (Wanderlust: By the Police who spent a disproportionate amount of time questioning the injured about their drinking habits whilst they were trying to get treatment)

They also show that available evidence was significantly misinterpreted, including an attempt to establish a link between later arrival and drunkenness that was fundamentally flawed.

The weight placed on alcohol in the face of objective evidence of a pattern of consumption modest for a leisure event was inappropriate. It has since fuelled persistent and unsustainable assertions about drunken fan behaviour.

Another one here who agrees with Rebel, Nat and Bread.

Many of us older posters have probably been in big crowds and have experience of people 'rushing' the gates to get in free - it wasn't unique to Hillsborough by any means - but back in those days it was the culture of fans of clubs like Liverpool to 'try it on' more than most - they somehow reveled in the 'loveable scalley' epithet.

I didn't have to be there that day to know that there would have been scores of the loveable rouges hanging about until the last minute to rush the gates, to chance their luck at getting in without paying a penny.

Dozens would have travelled knowing full well that they should not be able to get into the ground of an all ticket match that had been sold out - but still they went.  Why - it's not rocket science - we all know what their game was and it wasn't paying top price to ticket touts!

It was an accident waiting to happen - if it had not have been Hillsborough that day, it would have been another match on another day - but I'll tell you this - in my opinion that match would have also involved Liverpool fans at an away venue too!

Sure fans of other clubs tried it on - ours included - but the big difference was that it was almost a cultural thing for the scoucers to do - a sort of badge of honour - hard up, economically depressed, highly unionised (Red Robbo anybody?), militant politically (Degsy Hatton) - breaking the rules, feelings of they could do whatever the hell they bloody well wanted - Toxteth riots - two fingers up to any sort of laws or regulations that the rest of us have to adhere to sort of mind set.

There's been two major football tragedy's in recent years - Hillsborough - 96 dead and - Heysel - 39 dead and both involved Liverpool fans away - what a coincidence eh!?

Yes mistakes were made at Hillsborough but what's the point looking at the effects if you don't deal with the cause in the first place?

If there were just the people who had tickets for the game there that day there would not have been a tragedy - and that if anything is the thing that as been hidden - the elephant in the room.

It's about time the Liverpool fans took a good look at themselves and started to hunt down their own who were there without tickets and who got in to watch the game.  

Point the finger at them - the ones who left 96 of their own dead on the pitch - just so they could scally another free game for themselves to watch.

doffcocker wrote:How many times throughout history have a load of fans turned up to a match ticketless? Countless.
How many other times did 96 people die? None.

But it's about more than a few coppers that didn't do their jobs properly. It's the lies that were told for years about the Liverpool fans. It made absolute sense for the police to deflect the blame onto a load of pissed up working class people, and that's what they did.
They lied about the gates being forced open, and the scousers were systematically made out to be the scum of the earth.

It's absolutely sickening.

Absolutely right Doffcocker.

Folk have a problem just because they are Liverpool fans and/or scousers.

Sluffy wrote:Another one here who agrees with Rebel, Nat and Bread.

Many of us older posters have probably been in big crowds and have experience of people 'rushing' the gates to get in free - it wasn't unique to Hillsborough by any means - but back in those days it was the culture of fans of clubs like Liverpool to 'try it on' more than most - they somehow reveled in the 'loveable scalley' epithet.

I didn't have to be there that day to know that there would have been scores of the loveable rouges hanging about until the last minute to rush the gates, to chance their luck at getting in without paying a penny.

Dozens would have travelled knowing full well that they should not be able to get into the ground of an all ticket match that had been sold out - but still they went.  Why - it's not rocket science - we all know what their game was and it wasn't paying top price to ticket touts!

It was an accident waiting to happen - if it had not have been Hillsborough that day, it would have been another match on another day - but I'll tell you this - in my opinion that match would have also involved Liverpool fans at an away venue too!

Sure fans of other clubs tried it on - ours included - but the big difference was that it was almost a cultural thing for the scoucers to do - a sort of badge of honour - hard up, economically depressed, highly unionised (Red Robbo anybody?), militant politically (Degsy Hatton) - breaking the rules, feelings of they could do whatever the hell they bloody well wanted - Toxteth riots - two fingers up to any sort of laws or regulations that the rest of us have to adhere to sort of mind set.

There's been two major football tragedy's in recent years - Hillsborough - 96 dead and - Heysel - 39 dead and both involved Liverpool fans away - what a coincidence eh!?

Yes mistakes were made at Hillsborough but what's the point looking at the effects if you don't deal with the cause in the first place?

If there were just the people who had tickets for the game there that day there would not have been a tragedy - and that if anything is the thing that as been hidden - the elephant in the room.

It's about time the Liverpool fans took a good look at themselves and started to hunt down their own who were there without tickets and who got in to watch the game.  

Point the finger at them - the ones who left 96 of their own dead on the pitch - just so they could scally another free game for themselves to watch.

Dont always agree on some points Sluffy but spot on there lad !

Not sure that this subject deserves an answer in terms of the unbelievable lack of empathy shown for the death of 96 people including women and children shown by the posters on here.

 Many pre Hillsborough fans will remember being in a crush at a big match it was scary even when well policed. For that reason i am against bringing standing back.

In this case, the policing was diabolical, but worse than that the police lied to cover up the many mistakes made. Even worse than that the government of the day aided the cover up. Only the constant pressure of the family's brought this information out. 

 If my child was involved then i would have wanted the truth.

Many instances can be found that supports factually that the majority of fans were not pissed, but i bet some of those above criticising the Scousers have been bevied up themselves at a big cup game? but you returned home on a bus not in a box.

 It is also in doubt that many ticket less fans caused the problem, one eye witness says that the fans had tickets but the police opened the gates to let the crush disperse outside the ground.

Evidence exists that says the capacity in that part of the ground was 10,100 estimates made by CTV at the tribunal shows counts of around 9800. 

So sorry that someone else's grief pisses you off it must very hard for you to cope.

wessy wrote:Not sure that this subject deserves an answer in terms of the unbelievable lack of empathy shown for the death of 96 people including women and children shown by the posters on here.

 Many pre Hillsborough fans will remember being in a crush at a big match it was scary even when well policed. For that reason i am against bringing standing back.

In this case, the policing was diabolical, but worse than that the police lied to cover up the many mistakes made. Even worse than that the government of the day aided the cover up. Only the constant pressure of the family's brought this information out. 

 If my child was involved then i would have wanted the truth.

Many instances can be found that supports factually that the majority of fans were not pissed, but i bet some of those above criticising the Scousers have been bevied up themselves at a big cup game.? but you returned home on a bus not in a box.

 It is also in doubt that many ticket less fans caused the problem, one eye witness says that the fans had tickets but the police opened the gates to let the crush disperse outside the ground.

Evidence exists that says the capacity in that part of the ground was 10,100 estimates made by CTV at the tribunal shows counts of around 9800. 

So sorry that someone else's grief pisses you of it must very hard for you to cope.

Couldn't agree more.

To quote somebdoy from the Football Supporters Association at the time, if the police thought that a sudden influx of supporters from pubs was a novelty at a football ground, they must have been policing Noddyland before that.

wessy wrote:Not sure that this subject deserves an answer in terms of the unbelievable lack of empathy shown for the death of 96 people including women and children shown by the posters on here.

 Many pre Hillsborough fans will remember being in a crush at a big match it was scary even when well policed. For that reason i am against bringing standing back.

In this case, the policing was diabolical, but worse than that the police lied to cover up the many mistakes made. Even worse than that the government of the day aided the cover up. Only the constant pressure of the family's brought this information out. 

 If my child was involved then i would have wanted the truth.

Many instances can be found that supports factually that the majority of fans were not pissed, but i bet some of those above criticising the Scousers have been bevied up themselves at a big cup game? but you returned home on a bus not in a box.

 It is also in doubt that many ticket less fans caused the problem, one eye witness says that the fans had tickets but the police opened the gates to let the crush disperse outside the ground.

Evidence exists that says the capacity in that part of the ground was 10,100 estimates made by CTV at the tribunal shows counts of around 9800. 

So sorry that someone else's grief pisses you off it must very hard for you to cope.