Hillsborough

Sluffy wrote:

Probably linked to Coppers point.

Copper - if the gates were opened to the 'crowd' and they were not 'counted' in via the turnstyles - then how the authorities know how many people were actually in the 'pens'?

Are they not simply saying 2,200 tickets were sold but they should only have sold 1,600?

You've taken my post all wrong Sluffy.

The independent report said that pens 3 and 4 should hold 2,200 but a health and safety report said that it should be 1,600. Nothing to do with how many were in at the time.

I also suggested that there's nothing to say that when the gates were opened, if all of the fans who went in did have tickets that they wouldn't still have all gone in the same pen, causing a crush.

I really don't understand why you still have a problem with what happened that day. It was poor organisation, a poor show from Sheff Weds and more importantly poor policing.

A delayed kick off would have solved any problems.

I don't have a problem with what happened 20 years ago.

I am merely trying to make the point that perhaps the tragedy could have been avoided in the first place - long before the police got involved.

I had quite an hectic day that day as well (although no one died).

We were playing Darlington at home and we took up our normal place on the Longside. Any road early in the first half there's a bit of a commotion to the left of us, it turns out that a good number of Darlington fans had infiltrated the home end of the Longside.

To cut a long story short I ended up having to get stuck in, it was that or get blood on my shirt. I gave it ten 't dozen and I even got smacked over the head with a police truncheon (Up The Bum'ers).

A very sad day all round and one that shall not be forgotten.

Not relating to the Hillsborough disaster but I was on a work related course for about two years, with a few scoucers. 

The day after Heysal disaster they came in all very apolegetic at what had happened the night before.feeling very ashamed,although none of them went.
Cracking set of lads, a bit light fingered at times but sound.

Banks of the Croal wrote:
Cracking set of lads, a bit light fingered at times but sound.

  

Copper Dragon wrote:I had quite an hectic day that day as well (although no one died).

We were playing Darlington at home and we took up our normal place on the Longside.  Any road early in the first half there's a bit of a commotion to the left of us, it turns out that a good number of Darlington fans had infiltrated the home end of the Longside.

To cut a long story short I ended up having to get stuck in, it was that or get blood on my shirt. I gave it ten 't dozen and I even got smacked over the head with a police truncheon (Up The Bum'ers).

A very sad day all round and one that shall not be forgotten.

Crass, insensitive bollocks.

What the fuck has a story about your alleged involvement in a bit of fisticuffs with some Darlington fans got to do with events at Hillsborough?

Blood on your shirt, so you thought you'd better get stuck in....?

Sorry Cops, thought you were better than that, mate.

I thought the same when you were applauding Sluffy, Breadman.

Have you read the opening post of this thread?

Sick and tired of it aren't we?

'Blood on your shirt, so you thought you'd better get stuck in....?'

You had to be there, it wasn't by choice but necessity.

Post removed because I have been drinking and can't properly articulate my thoughts even though I know I'm right and you're ll wrong.

Damn you Torro Loco from Aldi....

The only people who are wrong Breadman are those that put the blame on a collection of fans who may or may not have got into an 'all ticket' football match.

Whilst obviously ignoring independent reports, police negligence, poor health and safety and the fact that 96 innocent people died.

So when you've got over the very 'crass, insensitive bollocks' nature which this thread was started with, what were you doing that day?

Copper, I bet you ran off and the Darlington lot caught you and made you do a silly dance, naked.

scottjames30 wrote:Copper, I bet you ran off and the Darlington lot caught you and made you do a silly dance, naked.

That's right, it's on youtube.

Just type in 'Break Dancing Big Bazoomer Claret'.

Emotive this subject isn't it? 
Just to add a point about the ticketless fans. My understanding from the report is that they were outside the ground trying to buy tickets from touts. As the turnstile arrangements were inadequate, a decision was made by the Hillsborough management and Police to bypass the turnstiles at the Leppings Lane End to avoid a late start so they opened the gates to the exit tunnel and told the fans to stop queuing and enter that way, paving the way for fans with or without tickets to pour in.
In essence, it was the police who invited the ticketless fans into the ground in the first place if my understanding is correct.

wessy wrote:

Reebok_Rebel wrote: Slag me off all you want, but they are milking it. More died in the Burnden park Disaster (same thing as Hillsborough) and at the Valley Parade fire - both of these were caused by human error or neglect by SOMEBODY, yet they never get a mention.

  

You slag yourself off by writing utter bollocks, Take your statistic re your own clubs disaster, you haven't a clue how many died at Burnden?  The answer is 33 people died. much less than the Hillsborough disaster. but it's not about comparison or numbers one death is one to many. its about Justice. and being able to rely on the people who should be there to protect the public.

I wanted to counter your deluded, vitriol fueled rant with a statement about how sentiment and emotions can be influenced by a crowd or the news etc, but I wont bother...

 

boltonbonce wrote:According to The Taylor Report,there were fewer than 30 ticketless fans at best estimate.

Is this the 'new' edited report that the weary police basically let the Liverpool fans write themselves after years and years of shit form them?

Liverpool DID have a reputation for hundreds, possibly thousands of fans turning up to smaller games than this without tickets... but on this occasion, only 30 turned up?

Yeah right.

Chief Superintendent Duckndive is on his third day of testimony and it's not looking good. He has already admitted to lying about events on the day. In his defence he claimed he had limited experience of policing a major sporting event having only been promoted to Chief Superintendent a month earlier and spending the vast bulk of his service in the CID. As well as discovering that he was totally out of his depth it's also been revealed that Sheffield Council hadn't renewed Hillsborough's health and safety certificate to hold sporting events.
DucknDive has admitted that he gave the order to open the gates which resulted in the crush which caused the death of the 96.
His reason for giving the order was that officers outside the stadium were radioing to say that there was a terrible crush outside the ground and if the gates were not opened then fans would be killed and injured in the crush.
I wouldn't like to be in his shoes but I do think he was in a ' Damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. Had he refused to give the order to open the gates there is a high likelihood that there would have casualties outside the ground.

Reebok Trotter wrote:Chief Superintendent Duckndive is on his third day of testimony and it's not looking good. He has already admitted to lying about events on the day. In his defence he claimed he had limited experience of policing a major sporting event having only been promoted to Chief Superintendent a month earlier and spending the vast bulk of his service in the CID. As well as discovering that he was totally out of his depth it's also been revealed that Sheffield Council hadn't renewed Hillsborough's health and safety certificate to hold sporting events.
DucknDive has admitted that he gave the order to open the gates which resulted in the crush which caused the death of the 96.
His reason for giving the order was that officers outside the stadium were radioing to say that there was a terrible crush outside the ground and if the gates were not opened then fans would be killed and injured in the crush.
I wouldn't like to be in his shoes but I do think he was in a ' Damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. Had he refused to give the order to open the gates there is a high likelihood that there would have casualties outside the ground.

No such thing with these as 'dammed if you do, damned if you don't'. 

These Liverpool fans want somebody's blood, and they will get it. 

Its about time they grew the fuck up and accepted that if thousands of so called 'fans' were not a bunch of pissed up thugs who thought they would storm the ground... it wouldn't have happened in the first place. 

I'm sorry towards the family's who lost people, I really am, but its about time they stopped trying to blame every body they can and look at the conduct of their own fans. 

Although, you cant get compensation from unnamed fans can you?

Why would the families just give up on wanting to know the truth about how/why they're loved ones died? Would you?

I'm still a bit with Rebel on this one.

I get that they want to get to the bottom of what went on and finally discover the truth but there has always been this sense that they (the Liverpool fans) were completely blameless in what went on.

I've never heard anybody connected to any of the campaign groups involved say "You know what? Yes - the fact that we had thousands of ticket-less scallies there that day, creating a major safety issue, was partly to blame for what happened."

They won't accept any responsibility for what went on and that sticks in my craw.

They've cast themselves as perennial victims in all this and won't acknowledge that they played a part.

I saw that woman who's always at the front whenever a camera appears on the news last night saying something along the lines of: "These admissions from the plod will come as a great relief to all the fans involved that day who survived."

In other words, "Wahay! Get out of jail with no guilty conscience card! Get in!"

What happened that day was terrible, but I'd be more tolerant of their seemingly never ending quest to point fingers and find a scapegoat if they'd ever acknowledged their own part in what went on.

bwfc1874 wrote:Why would the families just give up on wanting to know the truth about how/why they're loved ones died? Would you?

They know the truth, they just wont admit it. 

Tell me honestly, in a yes or no answer.... 

Would the terrible events of that day, regardless of the police or any other power, have happened, if an extra few thousand ticketless fans hadn't turned up to watch the game by whatever means necessary?

Breadman wrote:I'm still a bit with Rebel on this one.

I get that they want to get to the bottom of what went on and finally discover the truth but there has always been this sense that they (the Liverpool fans) were completely blameless in what went on.

I've never heard anybody connected to any of the campaign groups involved say "You know what? Yes - the fact that we had thousands of ticket-less scallies there that day, creating a major safety issue, was partly to blame for what happened."

They won't accept any responsibility for what went on and that sticks in my craw.

They've cast themselves as perennial victims in all this and won't acknowledge that they played a part.

I saw that woman who's always at the front whenever a camera appears on the news last night saying something along the lines of: "These admissions from the plod will come as a great relief to all the fans involved that day who survived."

In other words, "Wahay! Get out of jail with no guilty conscience card! Get in!"

What happened that day was terrible, but I'd be more tolerant of their seemingly never ending quest to point fingers and find a scapegoat if they'd ever acknowledged their own part in what went on.

great post. 

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