Gary Megson vs Owen Coyle - The Debate

This is a brief article I've written because of an absolutely fascinating debate going on in over on the Bolton Nuts Forum (If you haven't joined then get in there because the banter is awesome and there's room for every view under the sun whether it's in the Bolton News, Wanderers Banter (both BWFC related) or on the Wandering Minds where we talk about things like the news, politics or some truly weird stuff like who's having what for dinner.) The debate started out as a simple vote in trying to decide which of four managers Phil Gartside has appointed was the worst but it's become a debate about more than a manager's record.

For me the question has become one that could be phrased as “What makes a manager good/bad in the eyes of the fans?”

Is it pure statistics? Is it about which players he signed? What tactics he used? Those are of course important and often quantifiable evidence as to how a manager actually performed during his tenure. But are they all that matters? Are they even the most important factors in considering whether or not a manager was good or bad?

In all honesty for me those are only a part of the answer. In fact from a fan's point of view I'd have to state that I think what makes a manager good or bad is about all those things but with one very important addition that can't be quantified. How did it feel to be a fan when Gary Megson was our manager? How did it feel to be a fan when Owen Coyle was manager?

It's as much a subjective experience as being a football fan in the first place is.

So from my subjective point of view here is the answer I believe to be right.

Megson was much worse than Coyle. His all round demeanour was unpleasant, he branded the fans “pathetic” and told us “football people know how good I am” while serving up the worst, most boring football I've ever seen either at Burnden Park or The Reebok/Macron. His oft repeated mantra “We were below Derby when I came in.” Became not just irritating but to me seemed to be saying we all had to accept the garbage on the field and coming out of his mouth without comment because he'd “saved” us from relegation which to be fair he probably did. His relationship with the fans and press were awful and simply added to the feeling of deep unhappiness I got from watching a team that seemed to lack cohesion, spirit and spent all its time in its own half because he was so frightened of losing a match he rarely set out a team to go and win one. By the end of the 2008/2009 season I'd become so appalled by what I was seeing on and off the pitch I refused to set foot in the Reebok again as long as he was the manager and for the first time in over twenty years I did NOT renew my season ticket. I refused to give a penny to the club I love because I felt it was wasted as long as Megson remained in charge of the team. I went to some away games because I couldn't bear to not watch us at all but that was it.

Contrast that to how I felt when Coyle came in. I had some reservations, largely due to his lack of real top flight coaching experience but I like many others was pleased to see him both because at last Megson was gone and here was a guy who'd played for us, was popular among the fans and had just brought Burnley into the Premier League on next to nothing. Not only that Burnley played some very attractive football under Coyle and so I took my seat at the 'Bok for the game against Burnley and when I left I felt things were already looking up. And oh boy they sure were. The rest of that season was largely one of re-organisation and re-energising players who'd looked crushed and spiritless under Megson.

The following season (09/10) was one of the best I've ever had as a Trotters fan. Up till Christmas it seemed we were incapable of doing anything wrong. We got to the top eight again, we played some superb football and did it with largely the same players we'd had at the end of the Megson reign. In fact that made me even more annoyed with Megson because the man had signed some absolute gems and yet failed to get anything like the best from them. He had an eye for talent that was undeniable, possibly even better than Big Sam's but it took Coyle to let them show what they could really do with the right encouragement and system.

Of course I should have known there would be problems, that other teams would figure out that Owen played all out attack most of the time because he didn't know how to do anything else just as Megson knew nothing but uber-defensive football based on the mantra “don't lose” rather than Owen's “Go for the win at any cost” but it was just so much fun to watch that I didn't really care and probably wouldn't have if someone had told me what was going to happen.

Sluffy and others on the forum are quite correct in the assertion that Owen failed. But his failures made me feel way better than Megson's “successes” and even though we lost 5-0 in the semi-final against Stoke and began the slide that would lead us into the championship there were still great high points for a trotter to enjoy along the way.

Watching us demolish Liverpool 3-1 with my then fiancée Wendy (a Liverpool fan) put a grin on my face that would have made the Cheshire Cat look like a manic depressive even if it meant she didn't speak to me for three days afterwards. (I got forgiven, in fact it's our first wedding anniversary on August 31st ) Watching the mauling we gave Stoke when they came to the 'Bok and gained some revenge for Wembley by reversing the scoreline, seeing the night Tim Howard scored the freakiest goal ever to put Everton in front only to have us dig in and fight back to win 2-1 and many other truly awesome moments that stick in my memory all made me feel that even if we did go down we'd go down swinging and doing it the right way.

In fact I thought Owen had turned the corner when we went down. We did so by the narrowest of margins and that after having only nine points from nineteen games. We went down with 36 points, a total that would have seen us survive in three of the previous four seasons. However, I would be the first to admit that faith was misplaced. It became obvious from the first game that Owen simply had nothing left in the locker, that he couldn't lift the players and get us back up. He had to go and as much as I would wish otherwise when he was eventually fired it was the only possible decision.

But I make no bones about this when I say it was a hell of a ride while it lasted and I for one am grateful to have been a part of it. Whereas with Megson I was only grateful I got off early and more grateful still when it finally ended. As a fan I believe more than just bald stats matter and for me Megson vs Coyle is absolute proof of the fact that subjective criteria are equally important in terms of judging who was better or worse. Neither man was a good manager, in fact both were poor in purely footballing terms but for me at least Coyle was a much better man and that decides it.

Author: luckypeterpiper

karlypants wrote:He had an eye for talent that was undeniable, possibly even better than Big Sam's 

Please justify this comment. 

It's a myth he had an eye for talent, he made 2 signings that were pretty good value in Mavies and Lee. Apart from that he overpaid wildly for average players.

Hi mate. I think Elmander was a cracking player but Megson badly misused him which is why we never saw what he could do until Coyle put him in a better system that worked to his strengths. And didn't Meggo sign Cahill? I seem to remember it being him but that could be faulty memory on my part.

No fair point I'll give you Cahill another excellent signing. Surprised you rated Elmander so highly, a decent player but never in a million years would he justify the price we paid for him. We needed to replace Anleka not sign a link up player. 

The main thing for our club is value for money (as we never have any) Megson failed at this horrendously. Big Sam was an absolute master of it.

Great article Peter thank you.

I'd like to thank Lusty for his recent contribution too.

If you're not sure what I'm talking about simply go to the top of this (or any other page) and click on the 'News' link, which you will find inbetween the 'Home' and 'Portal' links.

This section is where we 'broadcast' out to the internet, so it can be picked up on amongst things like Facebook and Twitter.

Our aim is to get outselves more widely known and attract more people to join and participate in Nuts and thereby make it better for all of us.

If anyone would like to write an article and have in published to the world please let us know.



As for the comments on Elmander, would that be the same Elmander that Coyle played in midfield, dropped, or supplied him with hoof ball over the top from Knight and Wheater?

Yes, Owen certainly knew how to get the best out of his players.

Nice one Owen.

Sluffy wrote:As for the comments on Elmander, would that be the same Elmander that Coyle played in midfield, dropped, or supplied him with hoof ball over the top from Knight and Wheater?

Yes, Owen certainly knew how to get the best out of his players.

Nice one Owen.

It's pretty undeniable that Coyle got more out of Elmander than Megson did. 

Even though he was still a massive waste of money.

i remember Elmander playing in midfield in the semi final, totally out of his depth, but not his fault i suppose.

Megson did sign some good players but the way he handled them left a lot to be desired. The constant barracking of Elmander from the touchline being the worst of the lot.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I think Elmander was a cracking player

Are you pissed? Elmander would make my top 10 'useless bastards'. Even if he'd been free it would have been a rip off.

Fans like "personalities" - and certain positive media traits can paper over a lot of cracks. Ian Holloway for example. Coyle talked a great game. He didn't always deliver what he promised but he made it sound good - even as we sank.
Megson on the other hand made no effort whatsoever to entertain either on the pitch or in the media. The man didn't give a monkeys about PR - he considered himself a "proper football man" and above all that media circus nonsense. It's not a popularity contest - it's about results.
The media performances of Coyle and Megson's unwillingness to engage both contributed significantly to how they were perceived by fans and to some extent masked how they were actually performing. In reality, this perception lengthened Coyle's tenure just as it shortened Megson's.
Results matter most, but it really does help bring stability if the manager has a decent media presence.

Great article Pete and echoes my thoughts and feelings perfectly. However, I do think it's a tad sad that you get the knob heads that feel they have to counter your article with their own opinions, even though it's been debated the other day on a thread itself. Just let the article stand as that. It's not a thread title to be debated on it's an article. You want to counter it, then go and be as dedicated as Pete about it and write an article in response. (I know Sluff you asked him to write it which means especially you should be setting a better example even if you don't agree in the content!)

Point of order Jah.

I may well be a knob head BUT my comments on this thread had nothing whatsoever to do with the article itself (indeed I even praised it if you care to check back) but in reply to post 3 in this thread.

Not much point in having a forum if people aren't allowed to comment on new remarks made really is there?

If you don't think I write any articles for this site in an attempt to make this place better for both pro and anti Megson fans, then simply count the number of them that I have posted over the last year or so.

Feel free to help Peter (pro-Coyle) and I (anti-Coyle), make this site better for ALL of us by contributing an article or two yourself - I'll even give you a title 'In Praise of Owen Coyle' - about eight or so paragraphs long please.

Are you up for the challenge or not?

In all honesty there isn't much else that needs to be written about the OC vs GM debate Sluff. Pete has summed up my feelings perfectly and its great to know I'm not on my own in my experience of the two managers, but that's not why I felt the need to write more than my appreciation here. The issue has been debated with gusto this last week. I've not read Lusty's? article in the pro Megson camp, but I would receive that with equal measure even if I don't agree with the content and if its a well written piece I would commend that as well. I wouldn't feel the need to post my opinion in response to it as that would take away from the author's time and dedication in writing it. If Lusty or Pete had simply written a post thread with this title then fair enough - maybe the fault is with Karly in creating this thread with it here.

Yes, it is a debating forum, but wasn't the debating done/being done in the thread OC vs GM with a poll?

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but the articles were written to counter each other, hence their publication in the 'News Link'. If the whole idea of the articles were to give us yet more gung ho to wade into another debate about Owen Coyle then I have the wrong end of the stick as to why they were written in the first place.

No I won't be writing another article on this matter as its been done to death already and why would I spend my limited time and dedication for some keyboard warrior to pick it apart because they didn't feel they could respect the authors opinion. If I wanted to start a debate up about it I would just start another Coyle vs Megson thread.

If Pete had published this piece as a thread on its own then he would be starting the debate and everything that goes with it. I just think that if you ask someone to do this kind of task you as the admin of this site must offer them a level of protection in how its presented. That goes for the Pro Megson article as well and would've been the decent thing to do.

JAH Thanks for the sterling defence my friend. However I'd like to also defend sluffy and the other posters on here. For one thing the weebly site also allows for comments on it directly. For another this actually ISN'T the article you were referring to. I wrote this later simply because I felt like it when watching the debate between other posters on the poll. 

The article sluffy asked for is entitled "The Case To Go Now" and I for one would welcome any comments on that or anything else I write. I don't mind if people call me a twit as long as they have a reasonable basis for it. I don't even mind if people think I'm completely wrong as long as they tell me WHY they thinks so. I have always believed the best protection when putting forward an opinion or article is to successfully defend it against the challenges of those who disagree with it. 

I'd hate to think people are simply too afraid or feel they mustn't say anything simply because it appears on the 'other' Nuts site. By now you all know I don't exactly keep my thoughts to myself and I see no reason why anyone else should.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:JAH Thanks for the sterling defence my friend. However I'd like to also defend sluffy and the other posters on here. For one thing the weebly site also allows for comments on it directly. For another this actually ISN'T the article you were referring to. I wrote this later simply because I felt like it when watching the debate between other posters on the poll. 

The article sluffy asked for is entitled "The Case To Go Now" and I for one would welcome any comments on that or anything else I write. I don't mind if people call me a twit as long as they have a reasonable basis for it. I don't even mind if people think I'm completely wrong as long as they tell me WHY they thinks so. I have always believed the best protection when putting forward an opinion or article is to successfully defend it against the challenges of those who disagree with it. 

I'd hate to think people are simply too afraid or feel they mustn't say anything simply because it appears on the 'other' Nuts site. By now you all know I don't exactly keep my thoughts to myself and I see no reason why anyone else should.

Fair dos Pete, still a really well written article mate!

I'm glad you liked it. I try to write as well as I can and give a reasoned opinion when I do. I don't necessarily think everyone or even many people will agree with me on any given topic but I call it like I see it and would be very sad to think others didn't.

JAH wrote:Great article Pete and echoes my thoughts and feelings perfectly. However, I do think it's a tad sad that you get the knob heads that feel they have to counter your article with their own opinions, even though it's been debated the other day on a thread itself. Just let the article stand as that. It's not a thread title to be debated on it's an article. You want to counter it, then go and be as dedicated as Pete about it and write an article in response. (I know Sluff you asked him to write it which means especially you should be setting a better example even if you don't agree in the content!)

Christ you are a bit of a wanker aren't you Jah. Knob heads for posting an opinion on a forum? Nobody's knocking a well thought out article, but it's been put here to provoke debate.

Just one minor point of order Jah and that is that the brief for the two articles was somewhat confusing. It began as "Should Freedman go now or should we review after another 8 weeks?" then I was advised to put together instead 6 paras on the subject "Freedman" which I did, then the weebly thing came out as something else due to editing and I think the Megson v Coyle thing is something else again.
Peter gets his point across really well, but to my knowledge there has been no forum on which we are writing about the same topic at the same time. And given that this is a thread it would seem a logical place to comment.
My comment is that the common perceptions of the two differing personalities directly affected tolerance levels whilst masking or at least contextualising the performances - and this seems like the only place to make it.

Thanks Peter, I was half way writing a reply to Jah but you've beaten me to it.

Just to add, we nearly always post the articles on the forum as well as the 'News' link at the top of the page as most people simply don't stray away from the 'forum' part of our site and we think the least we can do for the people who go to the trouble of doing something for the site and it's readers, is to give them maximum publicity by posting them both in the 'News' and 'Forum' parts of our site.

Jah, how about writing us a Bolton based article on anything of your choice then, best match, favourite player, Burnden Park bogs, Why I want Freedman's baby's, anything, about eight para's long.

Get something off your chest, or share a good experience with us.

Are you up for it?