HomeChairmanda wrote:best debate on this subject I have read anywhere, including the so called quality broadsheet comment sections
Where do you stand Mand?
Be more German
+17
Hipster_Nebula
okocha
Sluffy
Reebok Trotter
Bolton Nuts
Norpig
boltonbonce
Copper Dragon
Bwfc1958
Boggersbelief
scottjames30
Natasha Whittam
Soul Kitchen
karlypants
Chairmanda
wanderlust
Bollotom2014
21 posters
Message [Page 6 of 33]
101 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 11:18
Guest
Guest
Where do you stand Mand?
102 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 11:57
Chairmanda
Andy Walker
I'll answer your question as best i can, 74. I look at some of the photos, there's one this morning of a Syrian lady in the sea desperately trying to hold a baby above the water, and I know that on a human, individual level I would have to help.
An accident of birth has put me in a relatively affluent, safe environment, and to those much has been given, much should be expected. Immigration can bring net benefit to a country in any case, so it can be argued that economically we are acting in our own self interest by accepting people into the country.
To me its also obvious that a lot of our infrastructure is creaking under the strain of austerity, so those who say that housing, health service is already overburdened are right, have a point, and shouldn't be dismissed as overly selfish, racist, or blinkered to the genuine suffering of others. This reaction makes that debate harder to have, and practicalities dictate that if as a country we are going to experience population growth, we have to plan successfully for how to accommodate it. If this came from people already in the country having more children and living longer purely, we would have to do something, why do we think "indigenous" people have lives of greater value than anyone else?
When people say "we first have to look after our own", I agree with them. I just define "our own" differently, to include all human life. And yes, there will be some trying to enter the country who are horrid, mean, radicalised, takers not givers...they are people, and like every community, there are good and less good. That is no reason to lump all people as one.
Thats the principle. In terms of action, I think we are behaving dreadfully, we need to accept people into the country with a plan to help them contribute to society and build the life they want...radical, forward thinking plan, not the current wishy washy hope the problem will go away...it could be an opportunity for the country if used correctly, and, going back to the start of this rant, as people it makes us human...I don't think anyone on this site could see suffering directly in front of them, such as the lady trying to save her baby, or the other iconic photo of a Dad with his family on a sinking dinghy and not want to help...why should we not expect our country to do the same?
An accident of birth has put me in a relatively affluent, safe environment, and to those much has been given, much should be expected. Immigration can bring net benefit to a country in any case, so it can be argued that economically we are acting in our own self interest by accepting people into the country.
To me its also obvious that a lot of our infrastructure is creaking under the strain of austerity, so those who say that housing, health service is already overburdened are right, have a point, and shouldn't be dismissed as overly selfish, racist, or blinkered to the genuine suffering of others. This reaction makes that debate harder to have, and practicalities dictate that if as a country we are going to experience population growth, we have to plan successfully for how to accommodate it. If this came from people already in the country having more children and living longer purely, we would have to do something, why do we think "indigenous" people have lives of greater value than anyone else?
When people say "we first have to look after our own", I agree with them. I just define "our own" differently, to include all human life. And yes, there will be some trying to enter the country who are horrid, mean, radicalised, takers not givers...they are people, and like every community, there are good and less good. That is no reason to lump all people as one.
Thats the principle. In terms of action, I think we are behaving dreadfully, we need to accept people into the country with a plan to help them contribute to society and build the life they want...radical, forward thinking plan, not the current wishy washy hope the problem will go away...it could be an opportunity for the country if used correctly, and, going back to the start of this rant, as people it makes us human...I don't think anyone on this site could see suffering directly in front of them, such as the lady trying to save her baby, or the other iconic photo of a Dad with his family on a sinking dinghy and not want to help...why should we not expect our country to do the same?
103 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 12:05
Guest
Guest
That's a more articulate and intelligent response than I could write on this topic, thanks for sharing it.
I completely agree with everything you've written - including the strain on infrastructure and how it shouldn't be dismissed - we need a radical, progressive solution across the EU to deal with this because it's not going anywhere. People keep writing in an ideal world we'd take them all, no in an ideal world the world would be safe enough for everybody to remain in their homes (where they'd rather be) and not have to flee such atrocities.
So we are where we are, my issue comes with the rhetoric we hear from this government and it builds a level of mistrust and hate towards people that deserve compassion. To read them described as undesirables, making places look filthy it winds me up. So apologies if I went a bit over the top yesterday, I'm not that much of a twat in real life I promise!
I completely agree with everything you've written - including the strain on infrastructure and how it shouldn't be dismissed - we need a radical, progressive solution across the EU to deal with this because it's not going anywhere. People keep writing in an ideal world we'd take them all, no in an ideal world the world would be safe enough for everybody to remain in their homes (where they'd rather be) and not have to flee such atrocities.
So we are where we are, my issue comes with the rhetoric we hear from this government and it builds a level of mistrust and hate towards people that deserve compassion. To read them described as undesirables, making places look filthy it winds me up. So apologies if I went a bit over the top yesterday, I'm not that much of a twat in real life I promise!
104 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 12:18
Guest
Guest
The rhetoric we're currently hearing from the Tories (and I suppose if I'm honest, Labour as well) about "dealing" with the immigration problem is a reaction to the shock they got when UKIP polled 4 million votes in the last election.
They're pandering for popular acceptance by coming across as being "UKIP Lite" when it suits them to do so and that's my main problem with it all.
The entire discussion would be framed differently if they weren't trying to get those (crucial) votes back from the people who voted UKIP.
And in framing it the way they are, they are perpetuating the idea that these poor, wretched people pose a threat to our borders and stifling the debate to the point where a "proper" solution will always be difficult to come up with because too many people can't see beyond "We don't want them here."
There doesn't appear to be any separation between playing party politics and genuinely doing what's for the best.
They're pandering for popular acceptance by coming across as being "UKIP Lite" when it suits them to do so and that's my main problem with it all.
The entire discussion would be framed differently if they weren't trying to get those (crucial) votes back from the people who voted UKIP.
And in framing it the way they are, they are perpetuating the idea that these poor, wretched people pose a threat to our borders and stifling the debate to the point where a "proper" solution will always be difficult to come up with because too many people can't see beyond "We don't want them here."
There doesn't appear to be any separation between playing party politics and genuinely doing what's for the best.
105 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 12:25
Soul Kitchen
Ivan Campo
Biggie wrote:Some of the ignorant comments on here are causing me to feel depressed.
Soul Kitchen. You tell us what is so special about you that means you get a piece of paper saying you're allowed in this country while others aren't.
What did you personally do to earn the right to be here?
Nothing. You were born here, you got lucky.
If ISIS tore through your town tomorrow, murdered all your neighbours, raped your kids, set your house and car on fire and said they were going to take the rest of the country too - what would you do?
...
The people who are coming here as paupers, climbing fences in desperation, risking life and limb on sinking boats were the same as you and I 12 months ago. They had jobs, businesses, cars.
How would you feel if it happened to you. If you tried to get to France or America and the locals said "turn him away, all he wants is for us to look after him. Plus, what if he is a thief or rapist, we cant take that risk". "we cant afford to let him come with his family, send them back, i don't care if his wife and his mother are captured and sold as sex slaves because its more important that our kids get a good education and that we can build a new railway."
Exactly was born here, got lucky, paid my tax!!
I don't pretend to know how they feel but how many do we let in , how do we choose and at what cost?
Get real you can't get a gallon in a pint pot despite your best intentions. Furthermore I would guess I am not in the minority in this matter.
106 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 12:28
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
1874, if the government said "yes, we'll take as many migrants as we can so long as people like 1874 put them up and help them out with food, clothing and other necessities" would you still have the same stand point?
It's easy to shout for other people to help, but what are you doing yourself?
It's easy to shout for other people to help, but what are you doing yourself?
107 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 12:56
Soul Kitchen
Ivan Campo
Natasha Whittam wrote:1874, if the government said "yes, we'll take as many migrants as we can so long as people like 1874 put them up and help them out with food, clothing and other necessities" would you still have the same stand point?
It's easy to shout for other people to help, but what are you doing yourself?
He's between uni and job at the mo so rattling his bucket round Tower Hamlets wealthy areas.
108 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 13:10
Guest
Guest
Natasha Whittam wrote:1874, if the government said "yes, we'll take as many migrants as we can so long as people like 1874 put them up and help them out with food, clothing and other necessities" would you still have the same stand point?
It's easy to shout for other people to help, but what are you doing yourself?
I think it's pretty blatant that I understand this would be funded by the taxpayer, so as a taxpayer im advocating taking refugees in which of course incurs me contributing.
109 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 13:11
Guest
Guest
Natasha Whittam wrote:1874, if the government said "yes, we'll take as many migrants as we can so long as people like 1874 put them up and help them out with food, clothing and other necessities" would you still have the same stand point?
It's easy to shout for other people to help, but what are you doing yourself?
Why would they do that?
That's like asking: "If you believe fat people are all shit and are a burden on the government coffers, we (the government) will stop all their benefits, provided people like Whittam buy all their salad for them and pay their gym membership for 5 years."
Ridiculous.....
110 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 13:41
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Breadman wrote:
Why would they do that?
That's like asking: "If you believe fat people are all shit and are a burden on the government coffers, we (the government) will stop all their benefits, provided people like Whittam buy all their salad for them and pay their gym membership for 5 years."
Ridiculous.....
I'd definitely be prepared to do that.
PM me your address, I'll send over a fresh salad.
111 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 13:44
Soul Kitchen
Ivan Campo
bwfc1874 wrote:Natasha Whittam wrote:1874, if the government said "yes, we'll take as many migrants as we can so long as people like 1874 put them up and help them out with food, clothing and other necessities" would you still have the same stand point?
It's easy to shout for other people to help, but what are you doing yourself?
I think it's pretty blatant that I understand this would be funded by the taxpayer, so as a taxpayer im advocating taking refugees in which of course incurs me contributing.
Do you actually think people would agree to an increase in taxes that this project would more than likely incur? Furthermore what limit do we place, 1 million, 3 million, how many? Open the door and it encourages more, it's self perpetrating, and you really expect people in Britain to fund this?
The Tories can't control who is coming in now never mind making a free for all, which to all intent and purpose you and like minded are proposing.
Get real, life is a lottery, some win, some lose and fuck all you can do about it.
I won the lottery when and where I was born, and I realised compassion and equality for all is a pipe dream many years ago, so you make best of it.
112 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 13:44
Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Natasha Whittam wrote:Breadman wrote:
Why would they do that?
That's like asking: "If you believe fat people are all shit and are a burden on the government coffers, we (the government) will stop all their benefits, provided people like Whittam buy all their salad for them and pay their gym membership for 5 years."
Ridiculous.....
I'd definitely be prepared to do that.
PM me your address, I'll send over a fresh salad.
114 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 14:32
Guest
Guest
Soul Kitchen wrote:bwfc1874 wrote:Natasha Whittam wrote:1874, if the government said "yes, we'll take as many migrants as we can so long as people like 1874 put them up and help them out with food, clothing and other necessities" would you still have the same stand point?
It's easy to shout for other people to help, but what are you doing yourself?
I think it's pretty blatant that I understand this would be funded by the taxpayer, so as a taxpayer im advocating taking refugees in which of course incurs me contributing.
Do you actually think people would agree to an increase in taxes that this project would more than likely incur? Furthermore what limit do we place, 1 million, 3 million, how many? Open the door and it encourages more, it's self perpetrating, and you really expect people in Britain to fund this?
The Tories can't control who is coming in now never mind making a free for all, which to all intent and purpose you and like minded are proposing.
Get real, life is a lottery, some win, some lose and fuck all you can do about it.
I won the lottery when and where I was born, and I realised compassion and equality for all is a pipe dream many years ago, so you make best of it.
You're continuing to ignore all of the points made in this thread.
Go back, read them over, take them in and then come back. We can't keep going around in circles here.
115 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 14:58
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Currently the topic is about the economics of immigration including strain on existing resources.
Surely if productive immigrants came in - and there is general concensus that they add value - they would generate sufficient to create the additional resources required and possibly even make life better for the rest of us in the process.
I understand SKs point about putting a gallon in a pint pot, but the plan would be to make it into a two gallon pot.
Problem is that in the current political climate which enhances the rich/poor divide it's unlikely that the money generated by the new immigrants would be spent on the resources required.
Surely if productive immigrants came in - and there is general concensus that they add value - they would generate sufficient to create the additional resources required and possibly even make life better for the rest of us in the process.
I understand SKs point about putting a gallon in a pint pot, but the plan would be to make it into a two gallon pot.
Problem is that in the current political climate which enhances the rich/poor divide it's unlikely that the money generated by the new immigrants would be spent on the resources required.
116 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 18:01
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
bwfc1874 wrote:
I think it's pretty blatant that I understand this would be funded by the taxpayer, so as a taxpayer im advocating taking refugees in which of course incurs me contributing.
So basically you're only prepared to get involved if everyone else does.
Instead of spouting bollocks on here, get in your car, drive across to Calais, stick a couple of migrants in your boot and smuggle them back to the UK. You can them put them up and feed them.
Then you've made a difference. Until then you're just another keyboard warrior, all talk no action.
117 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 18:10
Guest
Guest
Good point, I'm getting the car packed right now.
You should probably begin the cull of under 25s/fat people too, nobody wants to end up a keyboard warrior.
You should probably begin the cull of under 25s/fat people too, nobody wants to end up a keyboard warrior.
118 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 18:23
Soul Kitchen
Ivan Campo
bwfc1874 wrote:Soul Kitchen wrote:bwfc1874 wrote:Natasha Whittam wrote:1874, if the government said "yes, we'll take as many migrants as we can so long as people like 1874 put them up and help them out with food, clothing and other necessities" would you still have the same stand point?
It's easy to shout for other people to help, but what are you doing yourself?
I think it's pretty blatant that I understand this would be funded by the taxpayer, so as a taxpayer im advocating taking refugees in which of course incurs me contributing.
Do you actually think people would agree to an increase in taxes that this project would more than likely incur? Furthermore what limit do we place, 1 million, 3 million, how many? Open the door and it encourages more, it's self perpetrating, and you really expect people in Britain to fund this?
The Tories can't control who is coming in now never mind making a free for all, which to all intent and purpose you and like minded are proposing.
Get real, life is a lottery, some win, some lose and fuck all you can do about it.
I won the lottery when and where I was born, and I realised compassion and equality for all is a pipe dream many years ago, so you make best of it.
You're continuing to ignore all of the points made in this thread.
Go back, read them over, take them in and then come back. We can't keep going around in circles here.
I'm not missing any point at all. It's simple, you want migrants in, I don't. You'll pay for them, I won't.
That's not going round in circles, that's me having different opinions to you!! Once again, get real.
119 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 18:27
Soul Kitchen
Ivan Campo
bwfc1874 wrote:Good point, if only I had a car!
Do the job proper and hire a truck!!
Keep it well vented though.
120 Re: Be more German Fri Aug 28 2015, 19:00
Guest
Guest
To be honest with you SK, you making jokes about 71 people suffocating in a van goes to show your level.
As I said, read the comments on this thread again, it was intended to discuss alternatives to the governments current course. You think the Tories are doing a fine job of it, that's fine but you're still ignoring the point Lust made when he replied to you last -
A similar point to one I'd made earlier -
But neither of us are economists so ignoring the financial implications for a moment, you've already said you don't want immigrants in because they hate you, they're undesirables and they make the place look filthy.
My guess is the main reason you're against allowing the refugees from Syria and Iraq into the country is the above and the possible financial implications are you trying to justify those views to yourself.
As I said, read the comments on this thread again, it was intended to discuss alternatives to the governments current course. You think the Tories are doing a fine job of it, that's fine but you're still ignoring the point Lust made when he replied to you last -
Surely if productive immigrants came in - and there is general concensus that they add value - they would generate sufficient to create the additional resources required and possibly even make life better for the rest of us in the process.
I understand SKs point about putting a gallon in a pint pot, but the plan would be to make it into a two gallon pot.
A similar point to one I'd made earlier -
leaving people to rot in refugee camps is inhumane and also prevents positive contributions to the economy (which immigrants are more likely to do than UK nationals).
But neither of us are economists so ignoring the financial implications for a moment, you've already said you don't want immigrants in because they hate you, they're undesirables and they make the place look filthy.
My guess is the main reason you're against allowing the refugees from Syria and Iraq into the country is the above and the possible financial implications are you trying to justify those views to yourself.
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