Bolton Wanderers Football Club Fan Forum for all BWFC Supporters.
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Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:39 pm
Not a clue what you're talking about Bread - I think you should provide us with much more specific detail, examples of what you're talking about and generally elaborate on the concept...Breadman wrote:
From my own (very basic) experience of submitting the accounts for my own Ltd company for auditing (careful how I phrase this now), I know that it is eminently possible to, erm......well....er, you know........?
Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:57 pmOK. Accounts can place an emphasis in one aspect of the business or another and can be presented in a particular way to support particular ideas (by using selective ratio analysis for example) but it's nigh impossible to hide tens of millions, let alone hundreds of millions. The whole point of looking at all 3 financial documents in conjunction with one another is that generally speaking the whole picture comes out.Breadman wrote:I've got this idea nibbling away at the back of my head that the accounts aren't perhaps 100% kosher, or at the very least, have been deliberately put together in a way that confuses the whole issue.
Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:05 pm
Lusty, I am NOT saying he shouldn't get his money back at all so I'm not sure where that came from. All I said was that if he's listed as a creditor in the event of admin he MUST be paid in full for us to exit it as he is a direct football creditor (ie he lent the money to the football club itself rather than to Moonshift etc). If he is NOT listed as a creditor he isn't entitled to anything automatically and would not be able to take the assets (such as the stadium and hotel) in lieu of his debt as you suggested. He would have to buy them at their current commercial value and the money involved would be very significant indeed, well into eight figures.wanderlust wrote:So you're saying that ED is not entitled to the money BWFC owe him? I disagree.luckyPeterpiper wrote:No lusty. I think you need to understand that while ED and Moonshift are not legally the same entity Eddie is listed as a major shareholder. An attempt by him to take the assets back the way you suggested could (and likely would) be seen as an attempt to avoid paying other creditors including HMRC. If they're given to the administrator the way you suggest they would cease to belong to him or Moonshift etc and the administrator would be obliged to sell them for a maximum amount he can get. This means Eddie would have to pay market value for them whatever that might be and given he's already said he won't put in any more money now I can't see him doing it after admin, especially not to purchase assets he currently owns or holds a majority stake in.
When Ken Bates pulled his stunt of buying Leeds Utd for one pound while paying creditors a few pennies in the pound it caused a furore that still hasn't faded. HMRC will not stand by and allow someone else to try and pull that stunt again. That's one of the reasons why footballing creditors MUST be paid in full. Eddie's choices in an admin situation are now incredibly limited as a result. Either he or his company are listed as a creditor in which case he has to be paid and the assets would have to be sold to fund it or he declines the right to be so listed and as such receives zip.
As I said earlier Manda and rammywhite are much better at explaining this but Eddie couldn't even form a new holding company to buy the assets and exit admin that way because the assets are worth less than the total debt owed to Moonshift/him alone let alone everyone else.
When Southampton's parent company went into admin a few years back they were still docked points and still had to pay all football creditors despite their claim they weren't the same entity as St Mary's Holdings. I understand where you're going with your question and it would be a great trick that would help the club hugely if Eddie could do it but legally he simply can't any more no matter what his motives might be.
The fact is that it is HMRC who are vulnerable as they are legally down the pecking order (Sluffy will confirm this) and any attempt by HMRC to prevent ED from being paid as a preferential creditor so that they can advance their own claim would be highly illegal.
Do you really think that HMRC can just steal people's money if they want to?
This situation has nothing to do with what happened at Leeds or anywhere else for that matter as it is an entirely different set of circumstances.
BWFC owe ED £180 million and he has every right to get it back as a preferential creditor in the eyes of the law and there is absolutely nothing that HMRC can do about it.
And if he chooses to then give it back to BWFC or the dog's home or anyone else for that matter once the club exits administration he is entitled to so - and again it is my understanding that there is nothing that HMRC can do about it - as it's his to give.
And personally, I hope he does it.
Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:20 pm Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:53 pm Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:56 pmBreadman wrote:Very small or far away..........?
That is the question:
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Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:59 pmExcept he won't be allowed to do that lusty. Don't you grasp that yet? How can we exit admin if there are no assets left to settle the remaining football debts not to mention HMRC and non preferred creditors? Do you really think HMRC will say "yes it's fine, you take these multi million pound assets for nothing, don't pay us what you owe us and tell the other creditors to bog off". What you're talking about is just not possible given the value of the assets against the size of the debt even if it were legal.wanderlust wrote:I'll try to keep it simple.
If we go into admin, instead of writing off his debt as promised, ED as the main preferential creditor should try to retain as many of the assets as poss in lieu of payment. This should be more than 90% of the assets if historic reports that all but £10 million is owed to ED are to be believed. Then when the club exits admin, he can gift them back to the club (same as writing off the debt from EDs perspective) - leaving the club with >90% of what it has today which can then be used to find a new buyer.
Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:10 pm
Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:18 pmYou're going all or nothing again. He is owed 90% say. So whatever % is required of the assets are sold to pay off the other 10% creditors. It may take 20% of the assets to settle 10% of the debt but at least the rest (say 80%) can be rescued from the firesale.luckyPeterpiper wrote:Except he won't be allowed to do that lusty. Don't you grasp that yet? How can we exit admin if there are no assets left to settle the remaining football debts not to mention HMRC and non preferred creditors?wanderlust wrote:I'll try to keep it simple.
If we go into admin, instead of writing off his debt as promised, ED as the main preferential creditor should try to retain as many of the assets as poss in lieu of payment. This should be more than 90% of the assets if historic reports that all but £10 million is owed to ED are to be believed. Then when the club exits admin, he can gift them back to the club (same as writing off the debt from EDs perspective) - leaving the club with >90% of what it has today which can then be used to find a new buyer.
Re: Armchair Twats Have Killed Us Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:32 pmNorpig wrote:my favourite ever comedy programme
I love the Dougal milkman episode with Pat Mustard - those women were in the nip!
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