A Genuine Question for Brexit Fans

Fair enough, and I think its fair to say that a few will have second thoughts, with some wishing they had voted for the other side. I doubt its just one way though, (and no, I don't have evidence to back that one up ) My first thought when I got up in the morning and saw the result was to wonder if I had done the right thing. As time goes on, I think, (hope), I have.

bwfc1874 wrote:Out of interest, did you vote Boggers?

He can't spell X Lol

wessy wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:Out of interest, did you vote Boggers?

He can't spell X Lol

Comedic genius

bwfc1874 wrote:Out of interest, did you vote Boggers?

Yes

gloswhite wrote:Fair enough, and I think its fair to say that a few will have second thoughts, with some wishing they had voted for the other side. I doubt its just one way though, (and no, I don't have evidence to back that one up ) My first thought when I got up in the morning and saw the result was to wonder if I had done the right thing. As time goes on, I think, (hope), I have.

Time will tell Glos but as you might have gathered I feel pretty strongly about this. I just cannot believe that anything that had support from Farage, Boris, Gove, the Sun and the Daily Mail can be good for most people. Their interests are entirely different.

I know what you mean. Its stirred up a lot of feelings, both good and bad, and the way the politicians, , have behaved, there's no wonder feelings are running high. 
There's even talk that Parliament won't ratify the result and will work to keep us in the EU. Apart from being undemocratic, it will emphasise how the politicians, of all parties, are really looking out for their own agendas.

Always find Hannan to be a good speaker, but he's going to have a bit of a nightmare with this one. Where do brexiters stand if we end up with the immigration policy we already had? 

Cracking EU Brexit debate on BBC News Channel 130 now. Dianne ' Bud '  Abbot giving it big licks! Pitiful,............  really.

Enjoyed Salmond on that, his line about project leave taking over Cameron's normal source of sewage (the Daily Mail) to spread their own lies and how that blocked Cameron's scare stories getting out was a favourite.

Read a good article yesterday. This is a bit of it.


The media do not damn themselves, so I am speaking out of turn when I say that if you think rule by professional politicians is bad wait until journalist politicians take over. Johnson and Gove are the worst journalist politicians you can imagine: pundits who have prospered by treating public life as a game. Here is how they play it. They grab media attention by blaring out a big, dramatic thought. An institution is failing? Close it. A public figure blunders? Sack him. They move from journalism to politics, but carry on as before. When presented with a bureaucratic EU that sends us too many immigrants, they say the answer is simple, as media answers must be. Leave. Now. Then all will be well.

 Johnson and Gove carried with them a second feature of unscrupulous journalism: the contempt for practical questions. Never has a revolution in Britain’s position in the world been advocated with such carelessness. The Leave campaign has no plan. And that is not just because there was a shamefully under-explored division between the bulk of Brexit voters who wanted the strong welfare state and solid communities of their youth and the leaders of the campaign who wanted Britain to become an offshore tax haven. Vote Leave did not know how to resolve difficulties with Scotland, Ireland, the refugee camp at Calais, and a thousand other problems, and did not want to know 


It responded to all who predicted the chaos now engulfing us like an unscrupulous pundit who knows that his living depends on shutting up the experts who gainsay him. For why put the pundit on air, why pay him a penny, if experts can show that everything he says is windy nonsense? The worst journalists, editors and broadcasters know their audiences want entertainment, not expertise. If you doubt me, ask when you last saw panellists onQuestion Time who knew what they were talking about.


Naturally, Michael Gove, former Timescolumnist, responded to the thousands of economists who warned he was taking an extraordinary risk with the sneer that will follow him to his grave: “People in this country have had enough of experts.” He’s being saying the same for years.
If sneers won’t work, the worst journalists lie. The Times fired Johnson for lying to its readers. Michael Howard fired Johnson forlying to him. When he’s cornered, Johnson accuses others of his own vices, as unscrupulous journalists always do. Those who question him are the true liars, he blusters, whose testimony cannot be trusted because, as he falsely said of the impeccably honest chairman of the UK Statistics Authority, they are “stooges”.
The Vote Leave campaign followed the tactics of the sleazy columnist to the letter. First, it came out with the big, bold solution: leave. Then it dismissed all who raised well-founded worries with “the country is sick of experts”. Then, like Johnson the journalist, it lied.

On Friday, Johnson and Dan Hannan said that in all probability the number of foreigners coming here won’t fall

I am not going to be over-dainty about mendacity. Politicians, including Remain politicians lie, as do the rest of us. But not since Suez has the nation’s fate been decided by politicians who knowingly made a straight, shameless, incontrovertible liethe first plank of their campaign. Vote Leave assured the electorate it would reclaim a supposed £350m Brussels takes from us each week. They knew it was a lie. Between them, they promised to spend £111bn on the NHS, cuts to VAT and council tax, higher pensions, a better transport system and replacements for the EU subsidies to the arts, science, farmers and deprived regions. When boring experts said that, far from being rich, we would face a £40bn hole in our public finances, Vote Leave knew how to fight back. In Johnsonian fashion, it said that the truth tellers were corrupt liars inBrussels’ pocket.
Now they have won and what Kipling said of the demagogues of his age applies to Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

I could not dig; I dared not rob: 
Therefore I lied to please the mob. 
Now all my lies are proved untrue 
And I must face the men I slew. 
What tale shall serve me here among 
Mine angry and defrauded young?

The real division in Britain is not between London and the north, Scotland and Wales or the old and young, but between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded. What tale will serve them now? On Thursday, they won by promising cuts in immigration. On Friday, Johnson and the Eurosceptic ideologue Dan Hannan said that in all probability the number of foreigners coming here won’t fall. On Thursday, they promised the economy would boom. By Friday, the pound was at a 30-year low andDaily Mail readers holidaying abroad were learning not to believe what they read in the papers. On Thursday, they promised £350m extra a week for the NHS. On Friday, it turns out there are “no guarantees”.
If we could only find a halfway competent opposition, the very populist forces they have exploited and misled so grievously would turn on them. The fear in their eyes shows that they know it.

So very true Barb. Where did you find this?

It was on the guardian website

http://gu.com/p/4myct/sfb

Utter bollocks from the Guardian.

There isn't a real division between London and the North? Which planet is he living on?

The wanker says that we were defrauded by Gove, Johnson and Farage.

It's funny how some folk can call others stupid whilst doing the same thing.

Editing out all the lies, exaggerations and scare-mongering on both sides, I still found it almost impossible to cast my vote with any degree of conviction. 

The conflicting advantages and disadvantages of being in the EU balanced each other out in my mind, so I am amazed at how so many people seemed to have had no such doubts and are acting with aggression towards any who "dare" to hold opposing views to their own. 

Surely, we can all see the complexity of the many pros and cons to be considered, and be sympathetic to the degree of difficulty involved in choosing. 

I am amazed that so many opted for democracy above the economy but I wouldn't criticise anyone for making this ethical choice, even if it makes practicalities difficult.
 I am dismayed by the way Remain are labelling their peers in the Leave camp as "thick"........because the counter-argument would be that you'd have to be equally "thick" not to see the host of reasons that someone might have for voting to leave.

This was not a referendum about the personalities involved (but if we were weighing up the respective merits of the leading characters on either side, I would have scored it a 0-0 draw. Decency, honesty  and civility took a resounding back-seat).

No, this should have been purely about the merits and demerits of the organisation, and which issues weighed more heavily in the mind of each voter. In the aftermath, respect for people's choices should be paramount.

The biggest irony was DC making such a song and dance about his view that we are not a nation of quitters......and then quitting the moment he had to admit that his misjudged gamble had failed.

Absolutely bob on Okocha.

Nothing to add

Thanks, Copper.....

Copper Dragon wrote:Utter bollocks from the Guardian.

There isn't a real division between London and the North? Which planet is he living on?

The wanker says that we were defrauded by Gove, Johnson and Farage.

It's funny how some folk can call others stupid whilst doing the same thing.

He hasn't said there is no divide between London and the North he's saying the real division is caused by the lies Farage, Johnson and Gove have pedalled throughout.

Copper Dragon wrote:Utter bollocks from the Guardian.

There isn't a real division between London and the North? Which planet is he living on?

The wanker says that we were defrauded by Gove, Johnson and Farage.

It's funny how some folk can call others stupid whilst doing the same thing.

If you think there is a divide between London and the North now wait until you see what several years of Boris, Gove and co can do. All those EU subsidies won't be replaced any more than they will put £350m a week into the NHS.

And as for stupid there are two clear correlations in the voting patterns: the younger you are and/or the better your education the more likely you are to have voted Remain.

okocha wrote:Editing out all the lies, exaggerations and scare-mongering on both sides, I still found it almost impossible to cast my vote with any degree of conviction. 

The conflicting advantages and disadvantages of being in the EU balanced each other out in my mind, so I am amazed at how so many people seemed to have had no such doubts and are acting with aggression towards any who "dare" to hold opposing views to their own. 

Surely, we can all see the complexity of the many pros and cons to be considered, and be sympathetic to the degree of difficulty involved in choosing. 

I am amazed that so many opted for democracy above the economy but I wouldn't criticise anyone for making this ethical choice, even if it makes practicalities difficult.
 I am dismayed by the way Remain are labelling their peers in the Leave camp as "thick"........because the counter-argument would be that you'd have to be equally "thick" not to see the host of reasons that someone might have for voting to leave.

This was not a referendum about the personalities involved (but if we were weighing up the respective merits of the leading characters on either side, I would have scored it a 0-0 draw. Decency, honesty  and civility took a resounding back-seat).

No, this should have been purely about the merits and demerits of the organisation, and which issues weighed more heavily in the mind of each voter. In the aftermath, respect for people's choices should be paramount.

The biggest irony was DC making such a song and dance about his view that we are not a nation of quitters......and then quitting the moment he had to admit that his misjudged gamble had failed.

Spot on, and many seem to forget that the referendum was held to tell the government what to do, not the individuals. We have yet to hear what the government has in the way of contingency plans, etc, for withdrawal. I have a feeling that none have been made, as they thought it would be a Remain vote.



The 350 million has been explained as the gross figure and the nett is 160 million. They made a mistake putting that figure on the bus, but I would ask the remainers : Did you really make your decision to remain, thinking that it would all go to the NHS ? If so, what about the wider argument, did you ignore it?
Anyone who is still going on about the bus is very naïve. Its done and gone.

The bus is still relevant because it proves that the Leave team were well aware that there is a section of British society that could easily be swayed by throwing glib numbers at them, knowing full well that these people would swallow said numbers and vote Leave on the back of hearing them.

I know some properly stupid people who can just about tie their own shoelaces and walk upright unaided and they all fell for this whopper.

It was a cheap trick and it worked.

And then the fuckers had the nerve to come out 5 fucking hours after the results came in and start saying it was all a mistake and they couldn't deliver on that promise.

And now, because they  quite rightly got pulled on it, that's somehow morphed into "We never said that anyway."

It's just all lies stacked upon more lies and these are the people who will be running the country soon.

So that's why it's still relevant.