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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Bolton Wanderers Banter » Time for Anderson to deliver

Time for Anderson to deliver

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luckyPeterpiper
Nigelbwfc
rammywhite
MartinBWFC
DEANO82
Boggersbelief
boltonbonce
Norpig
Kane57
finlaymcdanger
Leeds_Trotter
Growler
BoltonTillIDie
karlypants
Sluffy
observer
Natasha Whittam
wanderlust
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121Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 12:06

y2johnny

y2johnny
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly

wanderlust wrote:
luckyPeterpiper wrote:just a short one lusty. Assume Ken HAS leveraged club assets to secure capital. It's not a problem assuming those loans are being properly serviced (ie repayments made on time) since the assets would only be at risk if they weren't. I suspect Ken may well have done this in order to pay off or reduce pre-existing debts that we CAN'T service from current revenue. I suspect any potential investor who knows his stuff would be able to see that in the books. Anyway, we clearly don't agree on Ken's motives for his actions but I think even you should be able to accept that our debts were out of control and we were heading for at least admin if not outright liquidation before he came in. At least now the costs are provably down and if we're a bit threadbare then so be it, we at least have a solid foundation on which to begin building.

I'm not going to go into ED's role based on unprovable accusations and the absence of evidence, however I do take issue with the highlighted sentence as we do not have a solid foundation, and what foundation we have is being eroded under Anderson. 

We are a loss making business and whichever way you stack it up, a failing business is forced to use up existing assets until it can cover costs out of profit instead. When they run out, the business is finished if it doesn't start making profit. Making profit without investment in the means to make profit is nigh impossible. Whilst we lose money, the cake can only get smaller.

IMO we would probably have survived and re-emerged if we had gone into administration instead of letting the fox into the hen-house - especially after ED wiped off 90% of the club's debt to ensure we didn't go into liquidation as the assets ED had paid for were, at the time, of greater value than the remaining debt.

IMO ED's contribution to BWFC in funding those assets is still the only thing that is keeping this club running, but one day, Anderson will have used that legacy up and they'll be gone - shortly followed by Anderson himself who will claim victory and move on to somewhere where the pickings are easier.

We'll see.
Whens that ever stopped you lusty :rofl:

122Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 15:52

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

On ED the money he took out of the club and the clause regarding what happens if we return to the Prem are NOT speculation lusty, they're in the accounts for all to see and in the contract which completed the sale of the club to Ken and Dean.

You still don't seem to recognise that BWFC is not some wonderful business opportunity for Sheikh Casha Fatwalletah to buy into at the moment and that Ken has no choice but to adopt the two pronged approach he has to date ie cost cutting and restructuring debts in order to make outgoings at least close to being met by revenue.

Of course that can't go on forever, there comes a point beyond which no more costs can be cut and no more assets can be used as collateral but I think you're missing one crucial point right now.

Revenue at this moment in time is almost non existent due to the fact we're still in the close season. Sure we're hosting some concerts and events but compared to match day and TV revenues they're tiny while our outgoings in terms of things like wages etc remain constant all year long.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect to see a miraculous swelling of the coffers overnight just because football's back on but the revenue from what is after all the primary business of Bolton Wanderers will certainly help to ease the pressure under which the club has been working.

I for one am willing to be patient and see where we are next year because until now Ken's not actually had ANY wiggle room to work with. Hopefully that will change over this season now that most if not all the fat has been trimmed and things like the embargo are over. If Ken's STILL singing the 'cut costs' mantra NEXT summer I'll probably be as mad about it as you are. For me THIS is the crucial season lusty, by the end of it one of us is going to be proven right about what he's doing and why.

123Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 16:07

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

luckyPeterpiper wrote:On ED the money he took out of the club and the clause regarding what happens if we return to the Prem are NOT speculation lusty, they're in the accounts for all to see and in the contract which completed the sale of the club to Ken and Dean.

You still don't seem to recognise that BWFC is not some wonderful business opportunity for Sheikh Casha Fatwalletah to buy into at the moment and that Ken has no choice but to adopt the two pronged approach he has to date ie cost cutting and restructuring debts in order to make outgoings at least close to being met by revenue.

Of course that can't go on forever, there comes a point beyond which no more costs can be cut and no more assets can be used as collateral but I think you're missing one crucial point right now.

Revenue at this moment in time is almost non existent due to the fact we're still in the close season. Sure we're hosting some concerts and events but compared to match day and TV revenues they're tiny while our outgoings in terms of things like wages etc remain constant all year long.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect to see a miraculous swelling of the coffers overnight just because football's back on but the revenue from what is after all the primary business of Bolton Wanderers will certainly help to ease the pressure under which the club has been working.

I for one am willing to be patient and see where we are next year because until now Ken's not actually had ANY wiggle room to work with. Hopefully that will change over this season now that most if not all the fat has been trimmed and things like the embargo are over. If Ken's STILL singing the 'cut costs' mantra NEXT summer I'll probably be as mad about it as you are. For me THIS is the crucial season lusty, by the end of it one of us is going to be proven right about what he's doing and why.
And what about the accounts that show ED donated £170 million to BWFC in writing off most of the debt? Or is that normal for a club owner too - or just a lifelong Wanderers fan?
And what about another lifelong Wanderers fan Paul Heathcote? 
Paul Heathcote, the Bolton-based chef and a lifelong supporter of the club, has instigated legal action to recover “significant and escalating debt”.

I don't expect a billionaire to throw money at the club unless he or she happens to be a lifelong Wanderers fan too, but nor do I expect the resumption of "the primary business of BWFC" as you put it, to change anything as that "primary business" is losing money hand over fist under Anderson.

This is indeed a crucial season for us - just as last season was. Let's hope we get through it in one piece - and ideally get a proper owner in before further damage is done.

124Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 16:37

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Lusty, what's the source on the Heathcote's 'legal action' story? I'm not doubting you, just couldn't find it on BN site or Beeb.

As to whether or not the start of the season changes anything we'll have to wait and see. I seriously take issue with your statement about 'further damage' though. Ken has kept this club alive when he could in all probability have simply walked away the moment he found out he'd been misled by Dean and Sportshield PLUS Trevor Birch who definitely and provably lied about the actual state of the club's finances. Had Ken NOT been committed to making BWFC a success he could easily have claimed his money back and the club would now be dead.

As to Heathcote being a 'lifelong' supporter please don't make me laugh. He's loved taking the money and has enjoyed pretty much a monopoly on catering services to the entirety of Burnden Leisure for many years. If Ken's late paying them then yes that's wrong but since neither you nor I actually are privy to those details I'm willing to wait for it to play out. Moreover, if Ken's so bad about paying Heathcote's then why is he so keen to keep the contract? Why is he telling his staff not to worry and that things with the club will be back to normal soon? Surely if we owe him 'significant and escalating' amounts of money he'd want to sell his goods and services elsewhere while taking us to court wouldn't you say?

125Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 16:40

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Lusty, what's the source on the Heathcote's 'legal action' story? I'm not doubting you, just couldn't find it on BN site or Beeb.
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He is a lifelong fan - his dad used to go running with my dad so I know.

126Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 18:59

Nigelbwfc


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka

wanderlust wrote:
luckyPeterpiper wrote:Lusty, what's the source on the Heathcote's 'legal action' story? I'm not doubting you, just couldn't find it on BN site or Beeb.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

He is a lifelong fan - his dad used to go running with my dad so I know.
The article is six of one and half a dozen of the other. Wanderers say he hasn't been providing the service. 

Wanderer's want to fire the company of. So we will wait and see.

127Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 19:49

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Nigelbwfc wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
luckyPeterpiper wrote:Lusty, what's the source on the Heathcote's 'legal action' story? I'm not doubting you, just couldn't find it on BN site or Beeb.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

He is a lifelong fan - his dad used to go running with my dad so I know.
The article is six of one and half a dozen of the other. Wanderers say he hasn't been providing the service. 

Wanderer's want to fire the company of. So we will wait and see.
What they said was not that Paul Heathcote MBE has failed to provide a service. What they said was that when he asked to be paid the money he was owed he didn't follow "the correct procedure."
So taking the livelihood off 200 Bolton people and taking it to court will further delay Ken having to pay his bills I guess.

128Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 19:54

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Lusty, are you really saying Heathcotes can ignore the agreements they themselves make and Ken's in the wrong?

129Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 20:01

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Lusty, are you really saying Heathcotes can ignore the agreements they themselves make and Ken's in the wrong?
no

130Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 20:03

Nigelbwfc


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka

wanderlust wrote:
Nigelbwfc wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
luckyPeterpiper wrote:Lusty, what's the source on the Heathcote's 'legal action' story? I'm not doubting you, just couldn't find it on BN site or Beeb.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

He is a lifelong fan - his dad used to go running with my dad so I know.
The article is six of one and half a dozen of the other. Wanderers say he hasn't been providing the service. 

Wanderer's want to fire the company of. So we will wait and see.
What they said was not that Paul Heathcote MBE has failed to provide a service. What they said was that when he asked to be paid the money he was owed he didn't follow "the correct procedure."
So taking the livelihood off 200 Bolton people and taking it to court will further delay Ken having to pay his bills I guess.
"This dispute has been brought about by a number of recent serious breaches of the agreement by SCC, which they have not rectified."


I interpret that differently

131Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 20:06

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

OK that's a good start at least.

Basically I think we should all wait to see what the actual facts in this matter are. It's obvious that both sides in this dispute are going to try and spin it so they appear to be the injured party but 'trial by media' isn't something I'd put any faith in, especially not when the media is the BN and Marc Iles.

Once the actual facts are known then it should be pretty obvious who's done what and who's to blame. I'll make my own judgement on this issue then, not before.

132Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 20:20

Nigelbwfc


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka

luckyPeterpiper wrote:OK that's a good start at least.

Basically I think we should all wait to see what the actual facts in this matter are. It's obvious that both sides in this dispute are going to try and spin it so they appear to be the injured party but 'trial by media' isn't something I'd put any faith in, especially not when the media is the BN and Marc Iles.

Once the actual facts are known then it should be pretty obvious who's done what and who's to blame. I'll make my own judgement on this issue then, not before.
Agreed

133Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 21:05

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

KA sounds so Trumpian... all of our deals are one-sided and were made by a previous administration... though he may be correct.  He then uses the system to forestall payments... and hoping to make a better settlement... all legal btw.  

I am not diminishing the claims by either side... but find this type of behavior more the norm these days... with Trump's detractors pointing to his company's failure to pay 100% on the dollar to many companies who work for him. So if we extrapolate, then KA is trying to renegotiate loans, deals, naming rights, player salaries and bonuses and anything that he feels is taking away from his ability to run a break even proposition (give or take that he may or may not be putting his own money into the club... an irrelevant point to date).

From the business point of view, KA is doing the smart thing as opposed to the debts incurred under the previous ownership.  Each of these has risk... including up to the final game when we may have been relegated.  Selling Madine was a no-brainer if you believe the numbers. Not replacing Madine was a risk... and one that only saw us stay in the league by two goals in the final minutes, while two other clubs who were above us, lost. Hence, KA is playing risk-reward.  Magennes vs Wyke... another gamble... but who knows how injury prone Wyke is at this stage.  BWFC vs Heathcote's... another gamble... one which will settle but most probably on better terms to the club... or at a percentage off to Heathcote with a late payment and a new vendor coming in with more favorable terms to the club.  

In the end, KA has been  playing the risk-reward game. But I also realize if someone would pay upwards of £6,000,000 (give or take) for Madine, then a good striker is worth a fortune. Hey, Rooney is being benched in America... maybe he would like a shot with us?



Last edited by observer on Sat Jul 28 2018, 23:01; edited 2 times in total

134Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 22:45

DEANO82

DEANO82
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly

A message from Ken.

Im sure you will all, like myself, have been very pleased to see the team end pre-season on a high with victory over Peterborough United earlier today.

It was against a tough and competitive Peterborough United team who I am sure will do well in Sky Bet League One this season.

It is a result however that will set us in good stead ahead of the start of our own Sky Bet Championship campaign that gets underway next Saturday against West Brom.

I feel sure that you are all looking forward to the campaign as much as I am.

Hopefully, between now and our clash at The Hawthorns, we are looking to bring a number of exciting new signings to the club in order to have strength in depth for the 2018/19 season.

West Bromwich Albion will be a very tough test for us, having been recently relegated from the Premier League, but I firmly believe that our players will give the best account possible of themselves next Saturday.

I hope to see as many of you as possible down at The Hawthorns, cheering the team on.

I have been made aware of the statement issued today by SCC/Heathcotes to the Bolton News.

Whilst the club has stated that no further comments will be made, as the matter is now in the hands of our lawyers, l must place on record my view that their statement is both misleading and factually incorrect.

I am unable to go into detail of their numerous breaches to the agreement, but I was left with no choice but to withhold the monies that have now become due to them over the last week or so and that in normal circumstances only became due and payable yesterday afternoon. Despite numerous assurances, SCC have failed to repay the substantial amounts long overdue to us.

The agreement clearly sets out the procedures that either party can take in the event of a dispute, but once again, SCC/Heathcotes chose to ignore the process.

For the record, we have no problem in paying any monies we may currently owe to SCC/Heathcotes, provided they first of all pay us the amounts long overdue to us.

Indeed, in an effort to resolve the current issues quickly and promptly, l am happy to lodge the monies due to SCC/Heathcotes with their lawyers, if they first of all lodge what they owe us to our lawyers at the same time.

As SCC/Heathcotes have said there is one simple solution to the current issue, so let's both pay the gross amounts due to each other with no further arguments about set offs etc. 

In the meantime, we still intend to terminate the agreement in view of their serious and ongoing breaches of the agreement.

l have also noted their comments about the staff of SCC/Heathcotes and can also personally reassure them, that once the agreement is terminated, they will have the usual TUPE protections available to them when we take control of the food and hospitality operations.

It is important to note that this dispute will have no adverse impact on our hosting of the Rugby League Challenge Cup semi-finals next Sunday and the start to the Sky Bet Championship campaign.

However, we will insist on an undertaking from SCC/Heathcotes that they will operate in accordance with the agreement and no further breaches will occur. In the event that this undertaking is not forthcoming, we have alternative arrangements in place.

It is unfortunate that we have had to take this course of action but recent events and the continuing serious breaches of the agreement left us with no alternative.​

Ken

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135Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 22:52

Maurice Greene


David Ngog
David Ngog

Was just about to mention that but you beat me to it Deano82!

Seems we now have two versions of events, so you pays your money and takes your choice.

136Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 22:55

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

As I mentioned in an earlier post it's obvious that both parties will use the media to try and spin the story so they appear to be the injured party. I think I'd prefer to wait for all the facts to come out into the open (assuming they ever do) before making a judgement on it.

137Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 23:08

DEANO82

DEANO82
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly

luckyPeterpiper wrote:As I mentioned in an earlier post it's obvious that both parties will use the media to try and spin the story so they appear to be the injured party. I think I'd prefer to wait for all the facts to come out into the open (assuming they ever do) before making a judgement on it.
Don't think all the facts will become public knowledge. It will come down to whether you are pro or anti Anderson to which side of the story you believe (pretty much like everything else).

138Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sat Jul 28 2018, 23:24

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

I suspect that the truth will turn out to be somewhere between what Heathcote's and Ken are saying but you're right in that we'll most likely never find out for certain. While I'm certainly not anti Anderson (in fact I think he's got most things about as right as possible under the circs) I'm not rabidly pro him either. He's certainly made some mistakes along the way but I think he'll know that himself and with luck will learn from them. Overall I think the club's headed in the right direction and I'm willing to be patient about how much we spend on players or how high up the league we get.

I suspect viewpoints will largely depend on an individual supporter's age. I'm old enough to remember the 80's days when things were much, much worse than they are now so I don't view the current situation with as much alarm as the younger fans who grew up with us in the Premier League and Europe. Certainly we should be concerned because things are far from ideal but we're not teetering on the brink of Armageddon in quite the way some posters seem to believe.

139Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sun Jul 29 2018, 07:45

Dunkels King

Dunkels King
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka

luckyPeterpiper wrote:OK that's a good start at least.

Basically I think we should all wait to see what the actual facts in this matter are. It's obvious that both sides in this dispute are going to try and spin it so they appear to be the injured party but 'trial by media' isn't something I'd put any faith in, especially not when the media is the BN and Marc Iles.

Once the actual facts are known then it should be pretty obvious who's done what and who's to blame. I'll make my own judgement on this issue then, not before.

There are always two sides to a story. The thing I don't understand is that if Heathcotes had already taken the Club to Court (was it last year or earlier) why did they then continue to provide the service ? You would think that they would be off like a shot in the first place unless they need the Club just as much as the Club need a Catering service.


Having just read Ken Andersons statement, surely the best solution would be to simply deduct what SCC/Heathcotes owe the Club from what the Club owes them, pay them, terminate the contract with notice and get someone else lined up therefore probably saving any potential Court costs. It's interesting that he mentions TUPE which implies that all the Staff can be taken on by a new Caterer and keep the same Terms and Conditions which includes pay rates. Clearly the Club have already decided to get rid of Heathcotes. Some people on here won't like this but it seems Ken does know what he is doing. It might not be nice how he does it, but it's within the law and is infact how a lot of businesses work now.

140Time for Anderson to deliver - Page 7 Empty Re: Time for Anderson to deliver Sun Jul 29 2018, 08:28

Growler


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly

We've got to be realistic here, it will be Ken that owes Heathcotes money, not the other way round.The urgency for Ken to get this sorted is that he has the rugby league semi finals next weekend and if it's cash only at the hotel because he hasn't paid  money he owes the caterer,it would be very embarrassing for him.

To think it's all Heathcotes fault and everything will be hunky dory when ruthless Ken gets rid of them and replaces them with a new caterer is also far fetched.If Ken doesn't pay the next caterer money he owes them in a reasonable timeframe he's going to have more problems.

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