Is there going to be a war?

Noble effort on that Sluffy, I did much the same but on National Geographic and like you can see Putins point about where Ukraine should ultimately sit. One thing you did miss out on is the period under Stalin in the 1920’s and 30’s where he basically starved the non Russian population which caused resentment which still resonates today. As you indicate, Russian thinkers dominate the East whilst the West leans towards the US and Europe. In a way it also has echos of Iraq under Saddam Hussein when he used old territorial maps as a reason to invade Kuwait. Either way, you cannot just invade sovereign countries recognised by the world to further your own agenda and Putin must not be allowed to get away with it or it just encourages the likes of China and Iran to do similar.

Whitesince63 wrote: In a way it also has echos of Iraq under Saddam Hussein when he used old territorial maps as a reason to invade Kuwait. Either way, you cannot just invade sovereign countries recognised by the world to further your own agenda and Putin must not be allowed to get away with it or it just encourages the likes of China and Iran to do similar.

I think the English shouldn't really be entitled to have an opinion on this because before the British Empire was built/bought we started by invading and subjugating Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
The former territory argument doesn't hold water though unless you're in favour of handing back England to the Italians or Germans or Scandinavians or French who built England.

Of course we can have an opinion but you’re right that these things have gone on forever with states changing hands and we’re as guilty as anyone but how far back do you want to go. Sadly there will always be despots like Putin who want to push the boundaries. He’d argue he’s doing it for defensive reasons and whilst I think that’s bollocks I can see his point about the West continually encroaching his borders. 

Let’s be honest, Ukraine on their own have no hope of fighting off Russia so a negotiated settlement must happen at some point. If it doesn’t and Russia is allowed to govern Ukraine where does it stop? We’ve seen in Ukraine itself how easily Putin can ignite unrest from within and the same thing can happen in other Baltic states if Russia is allowed to position its troops on their borders from within Ukraine. The West must unite, whatever the individual cost to their own economies because failure to stamp down on this quickly could spell disaster on a much wider scale. Even the Germans should look to their laurels in the East where we know there are still Communist sympathisers who can be called upon. It’s a very worrying situation but is the West up to it? Like Trump or not I’m sure he would have taken a tougher approach than that imbecile Biden who if he continues with his pathetic lack of action, only encourages Putin to go further and without a strong US there’s no hope.

wanderlust wrote:

Whitesince63 wrote: In a way it also has echos of Iraq under Saddam Hussein when he used old territorial maps as a reason to invade Kuwait. Either way, you cannot just invade sovereign countries recognised by the world to further your own agenda and Putin must not be allowed to get away with it or it just encourages the likes of China and Iran to do similar.

I think the English shouldn't really be entitled to have an opinion on this because before the British Empire was built/bought we started by invading and subjugating Wales, Scotland and Ireland.
The former territory argument doesn't hold water though unless you're in favour of handing back England to the Italians or Germans or Scandinavians or French who built England.

Wanderlust is bonkers 63, he's just obsessed on proving me wrong on anything, this time about territorial history and doesn't like the fact that you are saying the same things I did.

The last of all Wanderlust's invaders, the Normans came here in 1066, a thousand years ago for fucks sake, if you followed his argument the world belongs to Africa because humans originated from there and went on to populate the whole world.

The history of Ukraine shows them not to have historically ever been a nation as such until 1990 and it's clear as recently as 2010 the country was evenly divided in two with the western side being pro western and the eastern pro Russian.

I guess you could view in a similar way like Northern Ireland was/is, in that the Catholics want to be part of the Republic of Ireland and the protestants who came originally from Scotland and England to own and develop the land want to remain British - hence the 'Troubles'.

Should the British army have been sent in there to keep the peace and stay as long as it did?

As for Wanderlust's history lesson of the UK, perhaps he needs to swot up on the 1707 Act of Union when the Scottish parliament voted democratically to become 'United in to one Kingdom' with England and Wales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

Of course it is wrong for Putin to take it back by force.  The use of armed force are long gone (or least we thought it had).

It is a bit scary to where all this may lead too, hopefully it won't develop any further than it already has.

Bloody awful scenes in Ukraine. Any theories as to why putin targeted Chernobyl first? I’ve read that it’s the most direct route to Kiev. Coincidence?

Boggersbelief wrote:Bloody awful scenes in Ukraine. Any theories as to why putin targeted Chernobyl first? I’ve read that it’s the most direct route to Kiev. Coincidence?

In a way I’m glad they have secured Chernobyl, Boggers the last think we need is an accident on the cover there.

Will Taiwan be next?

Seems like the Russkis have cleared it diplomatically with the Chinese - they would have to as China "rents" 5% of Ukraine's agricultural area - and considerately waited until the Winter Olympics is over before making their move, despite being ready for months - so it would come as no surprise if the Chinese made a Russian-sanctioned move on Taiwan within the next year or so. 

Quid pro quo sanctioning in the face of the spread of capitalism is not beyond imagination.

Good piece Sluffy and pretty much sums up the reason for Putins anger at Ukraine moving more towards the West and courting the EU. I’m sure that wasn’t in the original plan and never needed to be. Ukraine could easily have settled for being neutral between East and West, they had everything they needed, especially with the agriculture on the Steppes but instead they chose to agitate Putin. I don’t condone the way Putin has acted but feel that this need never have happened had politics not interfered and especially the numb nuts in the EU who just couldn’t help themselves inviting Ukraine to join. Yet another wonderful piece of work by the mandarins in Brussels. The sooner that lot collapses the better for Europe and the chance of trading rather than governing returns. Certainly blows up the “peace in Europe” bollocks they keep spouting.

You can't blame people for having aspirations - not in a free world anyway.

Seems to me that Russia wanted to maintain some sway over the country and you can't really do that anymore if the population are free to choose what they want.

The issue seems to me that it was never legitimised at the ballot box in that their 2004 election was rigged in favour of pro Russia, it was eventually overturned in favour of pro west, who sought to join the EU.  However the 2010 election seemed to be fairly won by pro Russia who in 2013 backed out of EU membership (seemingly influenced by Russia to do so) - and the people basically overthrew the elected government for a pro west one.

If you look at it through Russia's eyes it is wrong - which seems fair comment to me.

I'm just being impartial here, not wishing to take anyone's side here.

However to send the tanks in clearly isn't the right way to go about resolving this and hopefully common sense will prevail with everybody in the end - and a peaceful solution acceptable to all is found very soon I hope.

Sluffy wrote:You can't blame people for having aspirations - not in a free world anyway.

Seems to me that Russia wanted to maintain some sway over the country and you can't really do that anymore if the population are free to choose what they want.

The issue seems to me that it was never legitimised at the ballot box in that their 2004 election was rigged in favour of pro Russia, it was eventually overturned in favour of pro west, who sought to join the EU.  However the 2010 election seemed to be fairly won by pro Russia who in 2013 backed out of EU membership (seemingly influenced by Russia to do so) - and the people basically overthrew the elected government for a pro west one.

If you look at it through Russia's eyes it is wrong - which seems fair comment to me.

I'm just being impartial here, not wishing to take anyone's side here.

However to send the tanks in clearly isn't the right way to go about resolving this and hopefully common sense will prevail with everybody in the end - and a peaceful solution acceptable to all is found very soon I hope.

Yes, I think that’s what we all hope will happen soon Sluffy and a peaceful solution can be found. I suppose once the fighting is over, an election overseen by a neutral body to ensure compliance would help, though I’m not sure Putin would agree to that since he’ll be holding the cards.

I do though think it’s an unwise thing to do for the Ukraine government to be handing out weapons because once the fightings over, how are they going to get them back again? Much more likely they’ll end up in the hands of the criminal element but even if not, how can they expect ordinary citizens with no training to fight an army of professional soldiers with tanks and heavy artillery? Crazy. It’s very sad but I’m afraid entirely predictable given the way the West has acted.

Whitesince63 wrote:Yes, I think that’s what we all hope will happen soon Sluffy and a peaceful solution can be found. I suppose once the fighting is over, an election overseen by a neutral body to ensure compliance would help, though I’m not sure Putin would agree to that since he’ll be holding the cards.

I do though think it’s an unwise thing to do for the Ukraine government to be handing out weapons because once the fightings over, how are they going to get them back again? Much more likely they’ll end up in the hands of the criminal element but even if not, how can they expect ordinary citizens with no training to fight an army of professional soldiers with tanks and heavy artillery? Crazy. It’s very sad but I’m afraid entirely predictable given the way the West has acted.

I don't think aspiring to better themselves by wanting to become part of a western life style and the opportunities that it affords rather than be retained under the control of Moscow is exactly the west's fault?  

Isn't that what half the world seems to be doing anyway with the mass immigration from the middle east, Afghanistan and sub Saharan African to Europe and central American immigrants going to the USA - nearly all of them for a better life than what they had?

As for the guns, desperate times means desperate measures.

Hope it all stops before anyone has the need to shoot at each other.

I also don't think free and fair elections will be held anytime soon in the Ukraine, they aren't doing all this just so the next elections there are going to turn out for win for the pro west candidate are they?

I find it all a bit scary really as there seems to be a new world order emerging and nobody knows what will be happening next.


Here's a question for anyone reading this, a bit of a random one I admit - but it just jumped into my head earlier today...

If Boris is found guilty of 'partygate' and lying to Parliament etc should he resign / the Conservatives hold a leadership challenge, or whatever OR do we just let it pass with all the shit currently going on in Ukraine?

I think I know your answer already 63 and I would normally want Johnson to go in such circumstances but I don't think we need to be too concerned with domestic politics right now until all this calms down.

What do people think?

Cut the head off the bear and it will collapse take putin out now you ditherin weak bastards .

The half-hearted sanctions indicate a tolerance that will allow the Russians to sweep through the Ukraine, kill as many soldiers as they can en route to dismantling the military, arrest and perhaps execute the politicians and put their own puppet government in place.

Will it all be forgotten in the West next year?

wanderlust wrote:The half-hearted sanctions indicate a tolerance that will allow the Russians to sweep through the Ukraine, kill as many soldiers as they can en route to dismantling the military, arrest and perhaps execute the politicians and put their own puppet government in place.

Will it all be forgotten in the West next year?

Seriously???

Ukraine: 'No war please' message from Russian tennis star Rublev

Russian tennis player Andrey Rublev has appealed for peace between Russia and Ukraine by signing a camera lens with a 'no war please' message, after getting through to the final of the Dubai Tennis Championship.

A major U turn by Germany -

16:54
Germany lifts block on sending weapons to Ukraine
Damian McGuiness

BBC News in Berlin

Germany has dropped its block on the delivery of German-made lethal weapons to Ukraine via third countries.

The move means the Netherlands will be able to send German 400 rocket-propelled grenade launchers to Ukraine.

It marks a major shift in German policy and could allow an increase of European military assistance to Ukraine as many weapons in Europe are at least partly German-manufactured, which means Berlin has a say on their use and export.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has repeatedly referred to this policy in recent weeks when refusing to deliver lethal weapons to Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60517447/page/2