Is there going to be a war?

Wagner boss killed in plane crash. Beats falling out of a window I suppose.

boltonbonce wrote:Wagner boss killed in plane crash. Beats falling out of a window I suppose.

Well it was only a matter of time Bonce. Then again is this genuine or has he just gone into hiding? His name was on the passenger list but how reliable is that?

Whitesince63 wrote:
Well it was only a matter of time Bonce. Then again is this genuine or has he just gone into hiding? His name was on the passenger list but how reliable is that?

Nothing would surprise me.

According to the DM, they think Putin has a double after looking at the wrong arm for his watch.

boltonbonce wrote:

Whitesince63 wrote:
Well it was only a matter of time Bonce. Then again is this genuine or has he just gone into hiding? His name was on the passenger list but how reliable is that?

Nothing would surprise me.

Nothing would surprise me either but at this point it does look like he's gone along with Dmitry Utkin who founded Wagner and named it after his own callsign...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Utkin

These are both bad guys, and better off eliminated if that actually is the case.

I guess Putin is feeling stronger again as yesterday (Tuesday) he sacked Surovikin (the bloke who seemed to be the one Prigozhin believed was going to lead the Russian army to join with him on his march to Moscow) and today Prigozhin gets killed (apparently?).

I reckon Putin's doubles will be getting a lot of extra outings.

boltonbonce wrote:I reckon Putin's doubles will be getting a lot of extra outings.

It seems that Prigozhin also had doubles and according to reports this morning all the bodies from the plane crash were unidentifiable and one was missing a head!! According to the manufacturer other than one crash due to crew actions this model of plane has never had an accident in 11 years. One of my favourite programmes is air crash investigation and I’ve never seen a plane come straight down like that from a malfunction so the shooting down looks pretty nailed on to me but whether Prigozhin was really on it I still have my doubts.

A bit of what is thought to have happened yesterday for anyone who is interested -

Seems there were 7 passengers and 3 crew on the plane -

Who were the other passengers on the plane?
Adam Hancock

BBC News

Besides Yegeny Prigozhin and his right-hand man Dimitry Utkin, there were five other passengers on the plane, according to Russia's aviation authority. This is what we know about them:

Valeriy Chekalov
One of Prigozhin's closest friends, Chekalov had been with the Wagner leader since the 2000s, according to Russia observer Giorgi Revishvili.

Not only was he in charge of Wagner's logistics, he also oversaw Prigozhin's contracts supplying food to the military, as well as overseas projects involving geological exploration, oil production, or agriculture.

He was linked to Evropolis, a company which struck a lucrative oil deal with Syria and was paying Wagner fighters and procuring arms, according to investigative group All Eyes on Wagner.

Chekalov had been targeted by US sanctions for acting on behalf of Prigozhin and supplying arms to Russia.

Yevgeny Makaryan
A former district police officer, Makaryan joined Wagner in March 2016, according to investigative site Dossier Center.

He had fought for the mercenary group in Syria, and his callsign was "Makar".

Sergey Propustin
A Wagner fighter since 2015, Propustin used the callsign "Kedr" and had fought in the second Chechen war, according to Revishvili.

Dossier Center said he came from a unit which supplied Prigozhin with many of his personal bodyguards.

Alexander Totmin
Known by his callsign "Tot", Totmin often posted pictures on Instagram of his flashy lifestyle, according to journalist Michael D Weiss.

Nikolay Matuseev
While Dossier Center was unable to find a person with that name on Russian lists, they found a 'Nikolai Matusevich' who has fought with Wagner since 2017.


My guess is that Prigozhin, Utkin and Chekalov being the main three and the other four body guards.


It is thought that the plane was shot down by Russian anti-aircraft defence.

The first picture below is a a still from the video below it which shows the plane falling to the ground.

The picture seems to suggest a missile trail.

You will see this 'missile trail' at the very start of the video, with the plane already falling someway to the right of it.






Posted at 6:57
Eyewitnesses report hearing two explosions at time of crash

BBC's Monitoring's Russia Editor, Vitaly Shevchenko, says speculation is spreading about the plane crash that Wagner head Yevgeny Prigozhin was believed to be a passenger on.

"I've seen a number of video clips filmed by eyewitnesses who said that they had heard two explosions and they drew the conclusion that the aircraft had been shot out of the sky," he says.

"But this is unconfirmed, this is speculative."


Putin back in control?

Posted at 9:46
Putin has reasserted control - former MI6 boss

Former MI6 boss Sir John Sawers says he thinks it's highly likely that Vladimir Putin is behind the reported death of Yevgeny Prigozhin.

"You can never fully be certain of the facts in places like Russia but all the indications point to the fact that Putin has taken him out - he’s reasserted his control," he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

Sawers says it's likely that there was a device "that brought the plane down suddenly, and killed everyone on board".

He rejected claims by Putin's former spokesman that Ukraine was responsible for the attack.

Earlier, Sergei Markov called Prigozhin a "hero" and said - without offering proof - that he was killed by Ukrainian intelligence as a "gift to Zelensky for Ukraine’s Independence Day".

Quote Message: It’s not surprising there is any attempt to lay a fig leaf of denial over this, but the message it sends out to Russians is that you toe the line. You don’t allow any criticism of the regime." from Sir John Sawers Former MI6 boss
It’s not surprising there is any attempt to lay a fig leaf of denial over this, but the message it sends out to Russians is that you toe the line. You don’t allow any criticism of the regime."

Sir John Sawers
Former MI6 boss


9:53
BREAKING
FSB likely targeted Prigozhin's plane - UK defence sources

Frank Gardner
Security correspondent

UK defence sources say that Russia’s FSB domestic intelligence agency (the successors to the KGB) are those most likely to have targeted Yevgeny Prigozhin’s plane.

They are totally loyal to Vladimir Putin and also run the border force.

The view is that this now probably strengthens the position of Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces Valery Gerasimov, whom Prigozhin loathed and publicly criticised.

This in turn is good for Ukraine as those two are considered incompetent.

AND finally (tbh I've not checked this out but in made me laugh if true!) -

Whitesince63 wrote:It seems that Prigozhin also had doubles and according to reports this morning all the bodies from the plane crash were unidentifiable and one was missing a head!! According to the manufacturer other than one crash due to crew actions this model of plane has never had an accident in 11 years. One of my favourite programmes is air crash investigation and I’ve never seen a plane come straight down like that from a malfunction so the shooting down looks pretty nailed on to me but whether Prigozhin was really on it I still have my doubts.

Tbh that is completely irrelevant.

They will identify who it is by DNA.

Of course they could lie and say it was him still even though it might not be.

But my point is, don't be misled by what others are saying as it simply isn't true in this case.

Sluffy wrote:

Tbh that is completely irrelevant.

They will identify who it is by DNA.

Of course they could lie and say it was him still even though it might not be.

But my point is, don't be misled by what others are saying as it simply isn't true in this case.

Seen a few conspiracy theories in the last hour, but it's the usual stuff. Hopefully, the truth will out, sooner rather than later.

I don't know, obviously, but I reckon it is true, it doesn't make sense keeping him alive now?

What is the point of such an elaborate fake, as Prigozhin can't overthrow Putin on his own, Wagner's handed in their heavy equipment anyway, it looks as he's already been squeezed out of Syria, where his day to day cash flow to pay the troops came from (Syrian oil field protection racket) and is being pushed out of Africa.

Prigozhin's main (known) collaborator has just been sacked (Surovikin - and who has been under house arrest since the march on Moscow and his main so called enemies (if not Putin himself) are both Putin's righthand men (Shoigu and Gerasimov).

This is what Timothy Snyder posted in respect of Girkin Surovikin and Prigozhin...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin#:~:text=Igor%20Vsevolodovich%20Girkin%20(Russian%3A%20%D0%98%CC%81%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C,and%20former%20Federal%20Security%20Service%20(

...which seems to suggest Putin is strong enough now to squash all of those who have spoken out publicly, which implies to me that Putin isn't frightened of any dissent from those behind the scenes and who were the ones who had been protecting Girkin Surovikin and Prigozhin, either.

Joke from the Albanian Prime Minister:

I thought this was interesting and informative about how basically the world really works!

It isn't really about doing the right and wrong things but more about keeping everyone happy enough (or deluded enough!) to vote for those in power at the next elections.

This 20 minute video explains why on the face of it that the west has put a price cap on Russian oil AND THEN does NOTHING to enforce it and sits back and watches how this sanction is breached, making it virtually meaningless having it - but won't scrap the sanction nor enforce it - because of the consequences of NOT having Russian oil flowing to the rest of the world - namely the energy price shooting up again and pissing off us the electorate throughout the world and voting for someone else at the next elections we have.

The video is by Bloomberg Originals which I assume to be part of the Bloomberg organisation BUT I can't seem to prove that to myself for definite although it does provide links to Bloomberg itself.

It probably is from the Bloomberg stable but whether it is or not I believe the story being told is a true one and worth a listen if you have any interest at all of understanding how the world really works and not how we may 'think' it works.

Surprising that nobody has added to this thread given that we’re probably the closest we’ve been to it happening in our lifetimes. It was often said that any future war would be created via the Middle East and it looks like that could be exactly what happens if we don’t play our cards right. Were the USA to react to the recent attack and death of US servicemen in the wrong way it could inflate the whole powder keg. 

Of course they want to strike back but sometimes you just have to see the bigger picture and understand who’s side other states will take. Clearly China, Russia and N Korea would side with Iran so hopefully rather than overreact the US will look at what could happen and take a more measured approach? Surely none of the major powers can be happy with what’s going on in the Red Sea because it affects everybody’s trade so hopefully instead of inflaming the situation cooler heads can exert pressure where it’s needed to ensure a peaceful resolution?

Article here 63

Jordan base attack: What options does US have to respond?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68135774


I don't know if you viewed the video I posted immediately above the one you post today but the 'bigger picture' is not what the likes of us believe it to be, it is all about...

Sluffy wrote:It isn't really about doing the right and wrong things but more about keeping everyone happy enough (or deluded enough!) to vote for those in power at the next elections.

There's an election going on in America this year and Biden won't do anything to make him less popular and Trump more popular with the American voters.

There's not going to be another world war unless some nutjob country starts firing off nukes.

The world isn't in a good place right now, democracy is under attack and will be even more if Trump is re-elected (did you view the video of his pledges of what he will do if he wins that I posted on the Trump thread?).

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk/t21093p480-donald-trump-for-president-of-the-usa#459368

To be honest I can't see things getting any better, too many people across the world have been brainwashed in to radicalisation to the left or the right, or totally controlled as in autocratic nations such as China, Russia, Iran, etc.

I think we've been lucky enough to be a generation to live through a golden period of freedom, plentifulness and peace but sadly it appears these days that it is beginning to look as though that is going to draw to an end.

Hope to God I'm wrong.

Been saying the same thing about brainwashing for years Sluffy but people just don’t see it. Surely it must be beginning to dawn on people that our culture and way of life is being gradually eaten away by the myth that is multiculturalism? It isn’t just immigration though it’s every facet of our life. Every single tv advert must have either ethnic or mixed race couples, every programme must have a same sex couple or even trans now yet none of this reflects the true percentage of the population. I’m sick to the back teeth of minorities constantly being favoured over the majority on so many issues but sadly it’s almost impossible to argue the point without being labelled some kind of “ist.” Why should a single persons human rights take precedence over the rights of the majority? I’m afraid it’s far too late now to do anything about it and I genuinely fear what the world and this country will be like in another decade. As you said, you an I lived in a halcyon period but look at the mess we’ve made for our kids.

Never mind 63, have a laugh, and a cuppa.

Whitesince63 wrote:Been saying the same thing about brainwashing for years Sluffy but people just don’t see it. Surely it must be beginning to dawn on people that our culture and way of life is being gradually eaten away by the myth that is multiculturalism? It isn’t just immigration though it’s every facet of our life. Every single tv advert must have either ethnic or mixed race couples, every programme must have a same sex couple or even trans now yet none of this reflects the true percentage of the population. I’m sick to the back teeth of minorities constantly being favoured over the majority on so many issues but sadly it’s almost impossible to argue the point without being labelled some kind of “ist.” Why should a single persons human rights take precedence over the rights of the majority? I’m afraid it’s far too late now to do anything about it and I genuinely fear what the world and this country will be like in another decade. As you said, you an I lived in a halcyon period but look at the mess we’ve made for our kids.

I totally agree with you 63 .

I often think how lucky I was to be born in 1948.

How difficult it must be now for parents bringing up children in this crazy world.

How difficult for children wondering wether to be a boy, a girl or a cat. or a geranium.

Thanks Bonce, that gave me a good laugh.

Cajunboy wrote:Thanks Bonce, that gave me a good laugh.

It's funny. I know people like that. People often got the wrong idea about Garnett.
If we can't laugh at ourselves, we can't laugh at anyone.