HomeFor those of you who haven't seen the previous thread, I am an academic researcher at Loughborough University working alongside those at UMass (a world-leading sports management university) and, if you haven’t already, I would urge and love everyone to take part in our international study and put your views about Bolton rivals on the world stage.
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22 Re: Rivalries Fri Sep 02 2022, 15:26
Sluffy
Admin
Conor_Student21 wrote:Hi Sluffy and Ten,
I have read an I hope followed everything that has been said, however I am unfamiliar with how companies are run and set up so I will read up on it all a bit more .
However, the overall aim of this study is not commercial in any shape or form, we don't aim to make any money from fans or clubs. This is all funded by the various Universities which are involved, in my case Loughborough University, and therefore purely for academic purposes. In the end all of the data we collect is going to be used to help explain all the various aspects of rivalry in sport around the world. We hope to help clubs by relaying this information to them in an attempt to help them understand their fans perspectives on rivalry.
So to answer your question, I'm very happy to honoured to be able to be a part of this major international study.
Cheers.
It's certainly not what the website you constantly direct us to - Ibidem Sports states in Peter Dickenson's bio -
Peter Dickenson
Founder and Owner, Business to Consumer (B2C) Sponsorship, ibidem sports
Peter has overall responsibility for the Business-to-Consumer (B2C) services of ibidem sports, including devising B2C strategies and evaluations for both sports properties and sponsors. His work incorporates the targeting of specific sports fans (from simple demographic analysis to more complex cognitive and emotional analysis) through the strategic positioning and leveraging of a property’s or a sponsor’s brand.
http://www.ibidemsports.com/company/management/
That as I read it means he gets information from fans (customers) and uses it to 'leverage' (use) it for the benefit the business (company) - or in other words 'sell' (market) initiatives, products and services to the sport clubs for them in turn direct market stuff to their fans (the very people who gave the information in the first place!
I'm sure YOU or Loughborough don't aim to make anything out of the study - but it's quite clear to me that the information you are collecting IS intended to be ultimately used by the sports clubs and their sponsors as direct selling to those fans supplying the information in the first place.
And you may want to look at Dr Dickenson's Management colleague at Ibidem Sports, (on the same link)...
Soeren Winkelmann
Founder and Owner, Business to Business (B2B) Sponsorship, ibidem sports
Soeren’s background is in national and international marketing and business strategies.
Marketing and business strategy guru - what do you think he wants the info for if not to market and create business opportunities for his clients???
Honestly what interest is it to anyone to know who Loughborough's sports rivals are other than Loughborough and those rivals themselves?
The fact that someone is interested enough to get people like yourself to find out this stuff suggests there is more than a passing academic interest in such knowledge.
Are you really interested to know who Bolton fan's see as their rivals - I'm sure you are just as interested to know as I'm interested to know who Loughborough's rivals are - or in other words not interested in the slightest.
But if someone can use that 'free' information and come up with a way of selling this information to clubs along with strategies of making money for them (maybe selling No Ken Do T-shirts - see Forest Green Rovers v Bolton Wanderers rivalry) then why not do so?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/forest-green-rovers-owner-produces-no-ken-do-t-shirts-to-put-pressure-on-bolton-wanderers-mjt7kpthk
The costs for the info is zero and in the case of the T shirts the profit was £5k.
92 English clubs x £5k = just short of half a million!
Just a thought...
24 Re: Rivalries Sun Sep 04 2022, 10:50
Conor_Student21
David Ngog
Hi all,
On behalf of Dr. Dickenson I'm posting this:
Hi all
Dr Peter Dickenson (Loughborough University) here. Thank you for engaging with Conor's message - and for ensuring that the post is legitimate, of course. Conor is gaining some valuable work experience through this project but I appreciate there have been a few posts about this research so I hope below clarifies a few things (if not, I am very happy to arrange a Skype/Teams/Zoom call this coming week (or another time soon afterwards) if people would prefer – my Loughborough University email address is easily found through Google if you’d prefer that route over following Conor’s links in earlier threads). Just to warn you, there’s a lot of info below (some might say information overload!!!) but I wanted to provide as much of an overview as I could.
First, this is part of an international academic study, and nothing to do with ibidem sports (which was a limited company for a very short time but ended up being an increasingly inefficient way to run after I became a full-time academic – in fact my full-time academic work means I hardly have any time for ibidem sports, which now involves more ad hoc work in my spare time through e.g. word of mouth – this suits me fine because I love the freedom of being an academic, and getting to research important and interesting topics like rivalries!). If what I’ve just said still isn’t sufficient then I would also add that (a) we have used our real names to ensure you can undertake your due diligence on who we are, and – perhaps most importantly – (b) academic studies have to be signed off from university ethics boards before they can start, and if the terms of the ethics approval are broken, I would be in serious danger of losing my full-time job – something I definitely don’t want to happen!!! The specific ethics criteria we must follow are outlined on the first few pages of the rivalry survey but as you may still be hesitating on clicking on the survey link at present, I’ve included a big chunk of the text for you at the bottom of this thread so that you can see how your information is processed (it’s at the bottom because we didn’t want to eat up the main thread here – however, the quick overview is that the research has University of Massachusetts (UMass) and Loughborough University ethics approval and you can find contact details for both ethics committees through Google if you’d like to double check).
In terms of why this academic study is needed, recent work by the leading sport management university, UMass, has actually uncovered that, despite what was originally thought about sport rivalries before these studies began, there are different important rivalry factors for different leagues. Why is this important? Well beyond the results being different to what we expected, we’re also noticing there is ‘good rivalry’ and ‘bad rivalry’ elements. We’d like to understand and foster the ‘good rivalry’ whilst limit the ‘bad rivalry’ and allowing fans to provide their own views helps us with this (there are no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ answers – and some fans might disagree, which is great and really insightful! However, when we average fans’ views together this is where we see differences in different leagues).
We think finding ‘good rivalry’ a positive for both fans and clubs (and indirectly the local community who benefit socially and economically). For instance, if ‘bad rivalry’ spills over, it can cause clubs – which already have limited resources – to receive fines for not controlling their fans, perhaps have to play behind closed doors etc. and this impacts clubs’ abilities to operate (/survive!), negatively impacts local trade on match days etc.. Meanwhile, if we can foster ‘good rivalry’ it means that, for example, more fans have a better matchday experience and fans that only come now and again are more likely to come more often etc. – and yes, whilst this might help clubs a little by selling a few extra tickets (which lower-league clubs desperately need), it also adds to the atmosphere for all fans – hopefully it’s a ‘win-win’ for both fans and clubs.
Finally, given sports epitomise where rivalries are found, moving forward, we hope our results might shed some light on ‘good rivalry’ and ‘bad rivalry’ outside of sport (e.g. we can start to learn about how we can make communities more cohesive, even if they are rivals – but that’s very much for the future).
As for this international study seeking responses from clubs such as Bolton – we are genuinely interested in this!!! From an academic research perspective, we really want to know if ‘good’ and ‘bad’ rivalry changes when different leagues are considered and/or over time, so we can continue to foster the ‘good rivalry’ – this actually might create opportunities for lower league teams to e.g. entice the next generation of fans as opposed to them supporting a top league team, ultimately allowing a team’s fanbase to continue. Currently, we just don’t know what the results will be – and do not want to assume/bias findings as previous work has shown why we shouldn’t – but we hope you can see why getting responses from lower league clubs would benefit the likes of Bolton (after all, the football pyramid depends on keeping clubs such as Bolton operating).
More broadly, we’d ideally like to gain a representative sample of respondents for all teams from the top 4 leagues in England (but I must admit from a personal perspective, as somebody who grew up just off junction 8 of the M61, had a mother who supported Bolton, and regularly visited relatives in Halliwell whilst they were still alive, I’d go and watch a few Bolton games at the Reebok Stadium (as it was then) – and would therefore personally love to have Wanderers fans’ views contributing to League 1 team fans’ views overall).
I hope the above provides a good overview of what the academic work is trying to do, and we would be extremely grateful if you could complete the survey and even pass it onto your friends, family, colleagues (you can send them the same link even if they don’t support Bolton because the first page of the link lets people go ‘back’ to choose another team – we’re just trying to make it easier for League 1 supporters here):
https://umassamherst.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3FdJ8eN2EgFCfCB?collID=10&grpID=1423
Many thanks for your time but if you have any further questions, would like to arrange a Skype/Teams/Zoom call, please let me know.
Peter Dickenson,
Loughborough University
(and below is some of the ‘how we process your data’ information you will see within the first few pages of the survey)
Your data are grouped together ("aggregated") with others' responses and reported as part of a larger set. In some cases your specific quotes may be used, but we do not use your name or any identifying information that would allow you to be personally linked to the statement (or any of your other data). The data are primarily used for academic purposes, such as publishing in academic journals and presenting at conferences. They may also be used to educate industry practitioners (e.g., people who work for sport teams) or as part of student projects, but again, only when individual responses are first made anonymous and/or aggregated within a larger dataset. We also publish certain findings publicly to help other researchers, typically on KnowRivalry.com. Our findings may be combined with other researchers' data, but as always, no personally identifiable information for respondents will be shared. Each respondent is assigned an ID number within our own database, so any reference to your data will be as "Respondent #1234" (for example).
All data are stored on password protected computers. Data are backed up using encrypted, password-protected, two-factor-authenticated online storage solutions and external hard drives stored in locked rooms. Data are kept for the foreseeable future because one of our research goals is to understand how perceptions of rivalry change over time (i.e., as part of a longitudinal study). Should you ever wish to have your data removed, you can contact us directly and we will make our best effort to remove your responses; however, removal may be impossible if we are unable to match you to your responses. We collect as little identifiable information as possible, thus unless you provide your email address or you have something particularly notable in your comments, we may not be able to find your specific responses.
On behalf of Dr. Dickenson I'm posting this:
Hi all
Dr Peter Dickenson (Loughborough University) here. Thank you for engaging with Conor's message - and for ensuring that the post is legitimate, of course. Conor is gaining some valuable work experience through this project but I appreciate there have been a few posts about this research so I hope below clarifies a few things (if not, I am very happy to arrange a Skype/Teams/Zoom call this coming week (or another time soon afterwards) if people would prefer – my Loughborough University email address is easily found through Google if you’d prefer that route over following Conor’s links in earlier threads). Just to warn you, there’s a lot of info below (some might say information overload!!!) but I wanted to provide as much of an overview as I could.
First, this is part of an international academic study, and nothing to do with ibidem sports (which was a limited company for a very short time but ended up being an increasingly inefficient way to run after I became a full-time academic – in fact my full-time academic work means I hardly have any time for ibidem sports, which now involves more ad hoc work in my spare time through e.g. word of mouth – this suits me fine because I love the freedom of being an academic, and getting to research important and interesting topics like rivalries!). If what I’ve just said still isn’t sufficient then I would also add that (a) we have used our real names to ensure you can undertake your due diligence on who we are, and – perhaps most importantly – (b) academic studies have to be signed off from university ethics boards before they can start, and if the terms of the ethics approval are broken, I would be in serious danger of losing my full-time job – something I definitely don’t want to happen!!! The specific ethics criteria we must follow are outlined on the first few pages of the rivalry survey but as you may still be hesitating on clicking on the survey link at present, I’ve included a big chunk of the text for you at the bottom of this thread so that you can see how your information is processed (it’s at the bottom because we didn’t want to eat up the main thread here – however, the quick overview is that the research has University of Massachusetts (UMass) and Loughborough University ethics approval and you can find contact details for both ethics committees through Google if you’d like to double check).
In terms of why this academic study is needed, recent work by the leading sport management university, UMass, has actually uncovered that, despite what was originally thought about sport rivalries before these studies began, there are different important rivalry factors for different leagues. Why is this important? Well beyond the results being different to what we expected, we’re also noticing there is ‘good rivalry’ and ‘bad rivalry’ elements. We’d like to understand and foster the ‘good rivalry’ whilst limit the ‘bad rivalry’ and allowing fans to provide their own views helps us with this (there are no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ answers – and some fans might disagree, which is great and really insightful! However, when we average fans’ views together this is where we see differences in different leagues).
We think finding ‘good rivalry’ a positive for both fans and clubs (and indirectly the local community who benefit socially and economically). For instance, if ‘bad rivalry’ spills over, it can cause clubs – which already have limited resources – to receive fines for not controlling their fans, perhaps have to play behind closed doors etc. and this impacts clubs’ abilities to operate (/survive!), negatively impacts local trade on match days etc.. Meanwhile, if we can foster ‘good rivalry’ it means that, for example, more fans have a better matchday experience and fans that only come now and again are more likely to come more often etc. – and yes, whilst this might help clubs a little by selling a few extra tickets (which lower-league clubs desperately need), it also adds to the atmosphere for all fans – hopefully it’s a ‘win-win’ for both fans and clubs.
Finally, given sports epitomise where rivalries are found, moving forward, we hope our results might shed some light on ‘good rivalry’ and ‘bad rivalry’ outside of sport (e.g. we can start to learn about how we can make communities more cohesive, even if they are rivals – but that’s very much for the future).
As for this international study seeking responses from clubs such as Bolton – we are genuinely interested in this!!! From an academic research perspective, we really want to know if ‘good’ and ‘bad’ rivalry changes when different leagues are considered and/or over time, so we can continue to foster the ‘good rivalry’ – this actually might create opportunities for lower league teams to e.g. entice the next generation of fans as opposed to them supporting a top league team, ultimately allowing a team’s fanbase to continue. Currently, we just don’t know what the results will be – and do not want to assume/bias findings as previous work has shown why we shouldn’t – but we hope you can see why getting responses from lower league clubs would benefit the likes of Bolton (after all, the football pyramid depends on keeping clubs such as Bolton operating).
More broadly, we’d ideally like to gain a representative sample of respondents for all teams from the top 4 leagues in England (but I must admit from a personal perspective, as somebody who grew up just off junction 8 of the M61, had a mother who supported Bolton, and regularly visited relatives in Halliwell whilst they were still alive, I’d go and watch a few Bolton games at the Reebok Stadium (as it was then) – and would therefore personally love to have Wanderers fans’ views contributing to League 1 team fans’ views overall).
I hope the above provides a good overview of what the academic work is trying to do, and we would be extremely grateful if you could complete the survey and even pass it onto your friends, family, colleagues (you can send them the same link even if they don’t support Bolton because the first page of the link lets people go ‘back’ to choose another team – we’re just trying to make it easier for League 1 supporters here):
https://umassamherst.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3FdJ8eN2EgFCfCB?collID=10&grpID=1423
Many thanks for your time but if you have any further questions, would like to arrange a Skype/Teams/Zoom call, please let me know.
Peter Dickenson,
Loughborough University
(and below is some of the ‘how we process your data’ information you will see within the first few pages of the survey)
What happens to my data?
Your responses are held strictly confidential. Any data published or shared are made anonymous, and we take several steps to protect the raw data and respondents' confidentiality.Your data are grouped together ("aggregated") with others' responses and reported as part of a larger set. In some cases your specific quotes may be used, but we do not use your name or any identifying information that would allow you to be personally linked to the statement (or any of your other data). The data are primarily used for academic purposes, such as publishing in academic journals and presenting at conferences. They may also be used to educate industry practitioners (e.g., people who work for sport teams) or as part of student projects, but again, only when individual responses are first made anonymous and/or aggregated within a larger dataset. We also publish certain findings publicly to help other researchers, typically on KnowRivalry.com. Our findings may be combined with other researchers' data, but as always, no personally identifiable information for respondents will be shared. Each respondent is assigned an ID number within our own database, so any reference to your data will be as "Respondent #1234" (for example).
All data are stored on password protected computers. Data are backed up using encrypted, password-protected, two-factor-authenticated online storage solutions and external hard drives stored in locked rooms. Data are kept for the foreseeable future because one of our research goals is to understand how perceptions of rivalry change over time (i.e., as part of a longitudinal study). Should you ever wish to have your data removed, you can contact us directly and we will make our best effort to remove your responses; however, removal may be impossible if we are unable to match you to your responses. We collect as little identifiable information as possible, thus unless you provide your email address or you have something particularly notable in your comments, we may not be able to find your specific responses.
Who do I contact with questions?
Questions regarding the research may be sent to rivalry@umass.edu, an account monitored by this study's researchers. You may also contact the researchers directly. If you have any questions or concerns about your treatment as a participant in this study, you can reach the UMass Human Research Protection Office at +1-413-545-3428 or rescomp@research.umass.edu. The research is subject to UMass IRB protocol #2410.25 Re: Rivalries Sun Sep 04 2022, 11:00
Ten Bobsworth
Frank Worthington
Conor_Student21 wrote:For those of you who haven't seen the previous thread, I am an academic researcher at Loughborough University working alongside those at UMass (a world-leading sports management university) and, if you haven’t already, I would urge and love everyone to take part in our international study and put your views about Bolton rivals on the world stage.
You crack on, Conor. I expect there are some folk in the world somewhere who might want to learn more about Bolton Wanderer's rivalries with Tranmere Rovers, Wigan Athletic and Morecambe.
The only rivalry of any interest to me though is the one that, following the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, resulted in the Bolton Evening News carrying the headline ' Wanderers Soldiers to Oppose United Munitions Workers'.
I expect it went down well in Bolton; not so well in Manchester. Nearly twenty years later Rags supporters were so incensed at Bolton winning the 1958 FA Cup Final that the Bolton team coach was stoned making its way from Manchester to Bolton following the victorious team's train journey from London.
Mind you, we frequently beat them in those days and they never liked it much.
26 Re: Rivalries Sun Sep 04 2022, 14:22
Sluffy
Admin
First, thank you Conor for contacting Dr Dickenson and secondly thank you to him for taking his time and effort to reply to us (well mainly me!).
I hear what you say and am happy to accept it as true, however...
I'm not a doctor or an international community developer (assuming the ultimate aim of all this is the altruistic search to bring all social communities together in peace) but merely a football fan of a certain club who can clearly see that football fans are not a representative group to base sound analytical research upon!
Take for example the England fans that 'rioted' at Wembley at the Euro 2020 Final - they don't represent any sport team supporter, they are products of society - racially abusive (see the vilification of the black England players who missed the penalties), public drug and alcohol abuse under taken as socially acceptable behaviour in their 'world', use of threats and force to illegally gain entry to the match, no thought or respect towards others who were legally there and intimidated by the 'hooligans' behaviour on that day, etc, etc.
The majority of such behaviour develops, normalises and manifests itself away from sports teams rivalries I suggest - the hatred towards one nation by another's political ideology such as the invasion of Ukraine, the threats by China to Taiwan's 'independence', religious ideology and intolerance (IS - or ISIS, whichever term you use), ethnic 'barriers' Serbia / Kosovo, religious barriers Israel /Palestine and so on and on - all a disgrace to society as we progress through the 21st Century.
Football /Sports fans aren't representative of society they are just an artificial sample of it and the vast majority of sports fans there are, don't view rivalries in such extreme views as the minority of those with who cause the trouble and need for the policing currently needed from match to match.
In short I suggest your sample responses you will gather for your project will not validate your end analysis simply because sports rivalries are an artificial way of looking at the issues you are interested in seeking to address.
Just because Tom, Dick or Harry might see say Loughborough United as their greatest sports rival doesn't identify that Tom may be a racist bigot, Dick could be a hard line political activist and Harry a religious extremist. How do you pick up their core belief's and subsequent social behaviour norms from whom they don't like their sports club playing against - and if you can't pick such socially important aspects and behaviour then how can you make society a better place to be when such key things are omitted which lead directly to social conflict?
But as I've said I'm not the expert, you are, so good luck with your intent to make the world a better place to live in - nothing wrong at all in that - but I don't think the key is in picking the brains of someone who dislikes the team down the road because they play in the wrong coloured shirts!
You can't analyse and extract methods of step change improvements in societies behaviour just from using the prism of how sports fans view their rivals - it's far, far too complex and nuanced than that - but I'm sure you must know this.
Best of luck with your survey though, at least you are trying to improve the world, which is to be commended.
I hear what you say and am happy to accept it as true, however...
I'm not a doctor or an international community developer (assuming the ultimate aim of all this is the altruistic search to bring all social communities together in peace) but merely a football fan of a certain club who can clearly see that football fans are not a representative group to base sound analytical research upon!
Take for example the England fans that 'rioted' at Wembley at the Euro 2020 Final - they don't represent any sport team supporter, they are products of society - racially abusive (see the vilification of the black England players who missed the penalties), public drug and alcohol abuse under taken as socially acceptable behaviour in their 'world', use of threats and force to illegally gain entry to the match, no thought or respect towards others who were legally there and intimidated by the 'hooligans' behaviour on that day, etc, etc.
The majority of such behaviour develops, normalises and manifests itself away from sports teams rivalries I suggest - the hatred towards one nation by another's political ideology such as the invasion of Ukraine, the threats by China to Taiwan's 'independence', religious ideology and intolerance (IS - or ISIS, whichever term you use), ethnic 'barriers' Serbia / Kosovo, religious barriers Israel /Palestine and so on and on - all a disgrace to society as we progress through the 21st Century.
Football /Sports fans aren't representative of society they are just an artificial sample of it and the vast majority of sports fans there are, don't view rivalries in such extreme views as the minority of those with who cause the trouble and need for the policing currently needed from match to match.
In short I suggest your sample responses you will gather for your project will not validate your end analysis simply because sports rivalries are an artificial way of looking at the issues you are interested in seeking to address.
Just because Tom, Dick or Harry might see say Loughborough United as their greatest sports rival doesn't identify that Tom may be a racist bigot, Dick could be a hard line political activist and Harry a religious extremist. How do you pick up their core belief's and subsequent social behaviour norms from whom they don't like their sports club playing against - and if you can't pick such socially important aspects and behaviour then how can you make society a better place to be when such key things are omitted which lead directly to social conflict?
But as I've said I'm not the expert, you are, so good luck with your intent to make the world a better place to live in - nothing wrong at all in that - but I don't think the key is in picking the brains of someone who dislikes the team down the road because they play in the wrong coloured shirts!
You can't analyse and extract methods of step change improvements in societies behaviour just from using the prism of how sports fans view their rivals - it's far, far too complex and nuanced than that - but I'm sure you must know this.
Best of luck with your survey though, at least you are trying to improve the world, which is to be commended.
27 Thank You Mon Sep 05 2022, 11:45
Conor_Student21
David Ngog
Thank you very much everyone for taking your time to read and understand what we're trying to do.
In response to Sluffy and your worries about the 'representative' sample, the idea behind the research is to examine, through mixed-methods, both quantitative (i.e. people’s aggregated scores) and qualitative (e.g. anonymous quotes that support the quantitative analysis) responses of ‘extreme’ or ‘deviant’ cases because understanding these ‘outlier’ situations can shed light on more ‘common’ situations. For instance, academics such as Seawright (2016, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0049124116643556) argue “Via statistical modeling and simulation, I argue that the rarely considered approach of selecting cases with extreme values on the main independent variable, as well as the more commonly discussed deviant case design, are the best alternatives for a broad range of discovery-related goals. By contrast, the widely discussed and advocated typical case, extreme-on-Y, and most similar cases approaches to case selection are much less valuable than scholars in the qualitative and multimethods research traditions have recognized to date”. If you wish you can also look up 'deviant case research' to read more about this research design.
Finally, thank you to everyone for your feedback about the survey and if there is any chance people could complete the survey and pass onto others it would be greatly appreciated. https://umassamherst.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3FdJ8eN2EgFCfCB?collID=10&grpID=1423
In response to Sluffy and your worries about the 'representative' sample, the idea behind the research is to examine, through mixed-methods, both quantitative (i.e. people’s aggregated scores) and qualitative (e.g. anonymous quotes that support the quantitative analysis) responses of ‘extreme’ or ‘deviant’ cases because understanding these ‘outlier’ situations can shed light on more ‘common’ situations. For instance, academics such as Seawright (2016, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0049124116643556) argue “Via statistical modeling and simulation, I argue that the rarely considered approach of selecting cases with extreme values on the main independent variable, as well as the more commonly discussed deviant case design, are the best alternatives for a broad range of discovery-related goals. By contrast, the widely discussed and advocated typical case, extreme-on-Y, and most similar cases approaches to case selection are much less valuable than scholars in the qualitative and multimethods research traditions have recognized to date”. If you wish you can also look up 'deviant case research' to read more about this research design.
Finally, thank you to everyone for your feedback about the survey and if there is any chance people could complete the survey and pass onto others it would be greatly appreciated. https://umassamherst.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_3FdJ8eN2EgFCfCB?collID=10&grpID=1423
28 Re: Rivalries Mon Sep 05 2022, 12:03
Sluffy
Admin
Thank you also for your reply and Conor's assistance in this.
Personally I'm still not convinced that what you wish to achieve can be done so from a study of sport rivalry (even based on the extreme outliers you seek) but clearly you (or others) have put a case forward that has convinced institutions such as Loughborough (who are better judges of these things than I) to contribute funding and resources to this end.
Best of look with the project and I do hope the findings prove me wrong and that it does ultimately directly lead to social behaviour improvements in society.
Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say.
Personally I'm still not convinced that what you wish to achieve can be done so from a study of sport rivalry (even based on the extreme outliers you seek) but clearly you (or others) have put a case forward that has convinced institutions such as Loughborough (who are better judges of these things than I) to contribute funding and resources to this end.
Best of look with the project and I do hope the findings prove me wrong and that it does ultimately directly lead to social behaviour improvements in society.
Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say.
29 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 08:56
Ten Bobsworth
Frank Worthington
Have you figured it out yet, Conor?
Why were Bolton Wanderers players in uniform in September 1939 and the Rags weren't?
Anyway here's a little snippet from 1957 to digest about rivalries.
ON THIS DAY – March 25, 1957
MANCHESTER United were expected to win comfortably when they hosted Bolton Wanderers for their first-ever game under the floodlights at Old Trafford.
The Monday night match was watched by 60,862 people but did not go according to the script as mid-table Wanderers raced into the lead through Ray Parry and then doubled their advantage just after half time when Bill Foulkes put through his own goal.
That completed a double against the Reds that season – Doug Holden and Terry Allcock having scored in a 2-0 win at Burnden the previous November.
Source[/quote]
Me and Barry were at that match. We'd have both been about twelve at the time but we never saw a ball kicked. Gangways were all blocked by Mancunian barstewards who wouldn't let us through.
I must confess I've never been keen on Manchester or Mancunians. I'm sure there are a lot that are alright but I can't abide the Terry Christian-type accent or Terry 'Smug' Christian for that matter.
As for the Nevilles, the Gallaghers and faux Mancunians like Bambi Burnham you can stick 'em all where the sun don't shine for me.
No surprise then that the faux royals should rock up yesterday at the Northern Capital of Arrogance and Conceit. Its all about them now, doncha know? Its their world. Them and potty-mouthed Bob Geldof types,
Why were Bolton Wanderers players in uniform in September 1939 and the Rags weren't?
Anyway here's a little snippet from 1957 to digest about rivalries.
ON THIS DAY – March 25, 1957
MANCHESTER United were expected to win comfortably when they hosted Bolton Wanderers for their first-ever game under the floodlights at Old Trafford.
The Monday night match was watched by 60,862 people but did not go according to the script as mid-table Wanderers raced into the lead through Ray Parry and then doubled their advantage just after half time when Bill Foulkes put through his own goal.
That completed a double against the Reds that season – Doug Holden and Terry Allcock having scored in a 2-0 win at Burnden the previous November.
Source[/quote]
Me and Barry were at that match. We'd have both been about twelve at the time but we never saw a ball kicked. Gangways were all blocked by Mancunian barstewards who wouldn't let us through.
I must confess I've never been keen on Manchester or Mancunians. I'm sure there are a lot that are alright but I can't abide the Terry Christian-type accent or Terry 'Smug' Christian for that matter.
As for the Nevilles, the Gallaghers and faux Mancunians like Bambi Burnham you can stick 'em all where the sun don't shine for me.
No surprise then that the faux royals should rock up yesterday at the Northern Capital of Arrogance and Conceit. Its all about them now, doncha know? Its their world. Them and potty-mouthed Bob Geldof types,
30 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 09:01
Ten Bobsworth
Frank Worthington
Lest we forget here's a bit more background, Conor, with a photo of some of the lads in uniform.
https://spartacus-educational.com/BOLTONcgoslin.htm
https://spartacus-educational.com/BOLTONcgoslin.htm
31 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 14:12
Conor_Student21
David Ngog
I must admit I'm not too familiar on how Bolton rivalries but this was definitely a good insight and very interesting to see how and why rivalries have been formed in football through the years.Ten Bobsworth wrote:Lest we forget here's a bit more background, Conor, with a photo of some of the lads in uniform.
https://spartacus-educational.com/BOLTONcgoslin.htm
32 Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 14:45
Conor_Student21
David Ngog
I am an academic researcher at Loughborough University, working alongside those at UMass (a world-leading sports management university), and I’m gathering data about League 1 rivalries, we don’t just focus on the ‘big teams’! If you haven’t already, I would urge and love everyone to take part in our international study and put your views about Bolton's rivals on the world stage.
34 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 15:33
Conor_Student21
David Ngog
Hi Natasha,Natasha Whittam wrote:
I understand why you would think this but in no way is this post intended to sell anything and it means no harm.
This study only aims to help the Bolton fans by getting their voices heard on this international study.
If you would like to find out more about the study please contact Dr. Peter Dickenson (https://www.lboro.ac.uk/schools/sport-exercise-health-sciences/people/peter-dickenson/) or have look on the Know Rivalry website (https://knowrivalry.com/).
35 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 15:45
Sluffy
Admin
Conor_Student21 wrote:I am an academic researcher at Loughborough University, working alongside those at UMass (a world-leading sports management university), and I’m gathering data about League 1 rivalries, we don’t just focus on the ‘big teams’! If you haven’t already, I would urge and love everyone to take part in our international study and put your views about Bolton's rivals on the world stage.
Conor, a suggestion for you...
Have you ever thought of doing your survey in a slightly different way, what I mean is why not target and contact the gatekeepers rather than individual forums like ours.
Have you considered setting up a Twitter account (or whatever is the most used means of social media these days) and Tweeting the clubs direct and asking them to retweet to the fans that follow them - would that not get you a quicker and larger response?
You might also refine this practice a little more by then targeting each clubs Supporters Trust and tweeting them asking for a retweet to their membership.
And then contact the clubs local journalist (Marc Iles in Bolton's case) and asking for a retweet also (I've found him to be the most likely to do so when I've tried to get something retweeted in the past).
If it helps at all...
https://twitter.com/OfficialBWFC
https://twitter.com/BWFCST?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
https://twitter.com/MarcIles
36 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 16:27
Ten Bobsworth
Frank Worthington
Conor may not realise it yet but, from the information I have provided, he already knows more about the MU rivalry than 90% of Bolton fans.
As you know Sluffy, there are no better sources of prejudice, misinformation and hopeless inexactitudes than Marc Iles of the Bolton News and the Bolton Wanderers Supporters Trust.
The hostility of the Bolton crowd to Man United became a source of embarrassment to the club during the Allardyce years. Bolton chairman Phil Gartside had become matey with the Rags CEO, David Gill, Allardyce was trying to curry favour with Alex Ferguson and Eddie Davies had appointed Rags chairman, Sir Roland Smith to be chairman of his company, Strix. Smith was an avid collector of chairmanships.
It didn't make much difference with the fans, mind you. They still sang out 'We only hate Man United' with customary fervour.
As you know Sluffy, there are no better sources of prejudice, misinformation and hopeless inexactitudes than Marc Iles of the Bolton News and the Bolton Wanderers Supporters Trust.
The hostility of the Bolton crowd to Man United became a source of embarrassment to the club during the Allardyce years. Bolton chairman Phil Gartside had become matey with the Rags CEO, David Gill, Allardyce was trying to curry favour with Alex Ferguson and Eddie Davies had appointed Rags chairman, Sir Roland Smith to be chairman of his company, Strix. Smith was an avid collector of chairmanships.
It didn't make much difference with the fans, mind you. They still sang out 'We only hate Man United' with customary fervour.
37 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 16:53
Sluffy
Admin
Thanks for you message to me Conor, once you get your Twitter account up and running, tweet us at
https://twitter.com/BoltonNuts
... and I'll retweet it your survey to our Twitter followers.
And for what it is worth there are two further Bolton fans forum you may like to join and post your request on (neither site uses Twitter).
WanderersWays which is the biggest of the Bolton fans forums (and the one most likely to give you the 'outlier' comments that you seek!) but they can also be the least civil to your request, so beware.
https://www.wanderersways.com/forum/forum/3-terrace-talk/
The other forum is The Wanderer which is a small and cliquey forum of largely middle class self opinionated pseudo intellectual types but they are probably more likely to respond positive to your request.
https://the-wanderer.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=4
Best of luck.
https://twitter.com/BoltonNuts
... and I'll retweet it your survey to our Twitter followers.
And for what it is worth there are two further Bolton fans forum you may like to join and post your request on (neither site uses Twitter).
WanderersWays which is the biggest of the Bolton fans forums (and the one most likely to give you the 'outlier' comments that you seek!) but they can also be the least civil to your request, so beware.
https://www.wanderersways.com/forum/forum/3-terrace-talk/
The other forum is The Wanderer which is a small and cliquey forum of largely middle class self opinionated pseudo intellectual types but they are probably more likely to respond positive to your request.
https://the-wanderer.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=4
Best of luck.
38 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 17:10
Sluffy
Admin
Ten Bobsworth wrote:Conor may not realise it yet but, from the information I have provided, he already knows more about the MU rivalry than 90% of Bolton fans.
As you know Sluffy, there are no better sources of prejudice, misinformation and hopeless inexactitudes than Marc Iles of the Bolton News and the Bolton Wanderers Supporters Trust.
The hostility of the Bolton crowd to Man United became a source of embarrassment to the club during the Allardyce years. Bolton chairman Phil Gartside had become matey with the Rags CEO, David Gill, Allardyce was trying to curry favour with Alex Ferguson and Eddie Davies had appointed Rags chairman, Sir Roland Smith to be chairman of his company, Strix. Smith was an avid collector of chairmanships.
It didn't make much difference with the fans, mind you. They still sang out 'We only hate Man United' with customary fervour.
You are correct Bob but I think in this particular instance it wouldn't affect any survey information that Conor would hope to collect.
Going off on a bit of a tangent what does rivalry mean?
Where I'm going with this is does the term mean that a rivalry has to flow both ways to exist?
If so do we have a rivalry with anyone?
United don't see us as their rivals even if most Bolton fans see them as one!
I used to see Blackburn as our rivals but they see Burnley as theirs.
Bury seemed to dislike us but they were mostly in a lower division to us over the years and not many people I knew had a rivalry with them?
We had a short period in time when we had issues with Tranmere and Wolves but I don't really think either of them see us as rivals...
So if nobody seems to see Bolton as their rival, then can a rivalry exist?
If you see what I mean!
39 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 17:15
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
It's 2022. There is no rivalry with Man Utd.
40 Re: Rivalries Tue Sep 06 2022, 17:28
Sluffy
Admin
Thanks for your further message Conor.
As it happens I'm banned from both those forums so I can't help you at all to register on them, sorry.
Fwiw I was banned from one of the forums for calling out one of the clique on there for threating violence on a pensioner and fellow Wanderer supporter the next time he saw him at the match and banned from the other forum when as a newly appointed moderator on that site when I refused to tolerate that the members of their clique could act and behave in a manner that they were above the law on there.
Sometimes doing the right thing at the right time is not always welcomed by others!
As it happens I'm banned from both those forums so I can't help you at all to register on them, sorry.
Fwiw I was banned from one of the forums for calling out one of the clique on there for threating violence on a pensioner and fellow Wanderer supporter the next time he saw him at the match and banned from the other forum when as a newly appointed moderator on that site when I refused to tolerate that the members of their clique could act and behave in a manner that they were above the law on there.
Sometimes doing the right thing at the right time is not always welcomed by others!
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