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UKIP

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Lofty_Love
Reebok_Rebel
Natasha Whittam
Sluffy
gloswhite
xmiles
Boggersbelief
Reebok Trotter
Sgt. Bash
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1UKIP Empty UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:07 pm

Sgt. Bash

Sgt. Bash
Andy Walker
Andy Walker

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/dec/18/ukip-candidate-abortion-for-downs-syndrome

Ukip candidate suggests abortion for foetuses with Down's syndrome

A disability charity has expressed dismay after a Ukip candidate suggested forcing mothers carrying foetuses with Downs syndrome or spina bifida to have abortions to avoid the child being "a burden on the state as well as on the family".

In a self-styled "personal manifesto" on his own website, Geoffrey Clarke – who is seeking seats on Kent county council and Gravesham council in a byelection later this month, as well as to Ukip's national executive – said there should be a review into various drastic measures to reduce spending on the NHS, such as "giving free euthanasia advice to all folk over 80 years of age".

Among the other ideas listed for discussion was "compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, spina bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family".

In a "clarification to avoid confusion and misrepresentation" on the website Clarke, a 66-year-old chartered accountant, stressed that neither he nor Ukip specifically endorsed the ideas, adding: "They are suggestions of matters for the review body to properly consider, in light of the stated desire of all political parties to reduce the national debt."

The manifesto was condemned by Mencap, which campaigns for people with learning disabilities. Mark Goldring, the charity's chief executive, said Mencap was "disgusted and horrified". He continued: "Much has been written about the Paralympics this summer changing attitudes towards disabled people for the better. Yet in the very same year, a council candidate has proposed forced eugenics against disabled people.

"It is abhorrent that Geoffrey Clarke sees disabled people solely as a burden, when people with a learning disability lead full lives, and make valuable contributions to their communities and families. We question if he is fit for public office."

Clarke's manifesto contains a number of other ideas that will raise eyebrows among Ukip hierarchy as the party attempts to enter the mainstream and shed its image as, in David Cameron's now revoked words, "fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists".

On immigration he calls for the immediate deportation of "riff raff" elements, demands the revision of passages of the Koran and quotes seven verses of a self-penned poem about defending British culture titled, We Must Turn The Tide, And Then Advance.

Clarke told the Guardian that he did not support the forced abortion idea but did want to create a debate on how the NHS could be financed in the future. He said: "Those are suggestions for a review body to consider when they look into whether the NHS is affordable in the future. I do tend to provoke thought by throwing out ideas. I do like to be provocative.

"But they're not necessarily my views. I'm throwing out matters for the review body to consider. I'm not qualified to consider them. Therefore they are not my views, as I don't have the qualification to hold those views."

Clarke said he apologised for any offence. Asked if he regretted raising the idea he said: "I regret articulating it in the way I have, and I'm going to rewrite it."

Clarke said he knew one person with Downs syndrome and thought he knew one person with Spina bifida. Neither were a burden on their families or the state, he said.

UKIP have just established themselves as the UK's thrid political party, pushing the Lib Dems into fourth place. They could do without people like this fool in their party!

2UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:15 pm

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

It's an emotive subject on a par with the abortion issue. I think it must be every parents nightmare having a child born with a serious disability which will reduce his or her quality of life from the day of birth to the day of departure.

Not every parent can cope with this and long term care especially for older parents must be a genuine worry.

At least UKIP are prepared to put forward these kinds of sensitive issues up for debate. I think the word ' compulsory ' is the one that gets everyone's backs up.

3UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:35 pm

Boggersbelief

Boggersbelief
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

It's a sensitive subject, but I can see where he's coming from. Not that I agree

4UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:47 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

He's certainly not helping UKIP. Compulsory abortion is not even a vote winner as it is obviously a very nasty concept.

5UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:51 pm

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

in all honesty, I don't think he's done anything wrong. The way society is going, and decisions the government may well have to make in the future really do need to be looked at.

6UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:47 pm

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

gloswhite wrote:in all honesty, I don't think he's done anything wrong. The way society is going, and decisions the government may well have to make in the future really do need to be looked at.

Exactly the reason why these issues do need to be debated. Who is ultimately going to have pay for the constant medical treatment for these unfortunate individuals ? If you are severely disabled and cannot do anything for yourself then you need 24 hour care. This comes at a price. I know I would rather be dead than be a burden on my family. In some cases you genuinely do have to be cruel to be kind.

7UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:06 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Reebok Trotter wrote:

Exactly the reason why these issues do need to be debated. Who is ultimately going to have pay for the constant medical treatment for these unfortunate individuals ? If you are severely disabled and cannot do anything for yourself then you need 24 hour care. This comes at a price. I know I would rather be dead than be a burden on my family. In some cases you genuinely do have to be cruel to be kind.

But it should be the prospective mother who decides whether or not to have an abortion not the state. Where would a law draw the line? There are degrees of disability.

As we all know there are significant numbers of people claiming to be disabled in order to claim increased benefits. Plus we are a magnet for east Europeans because the benefits here are so generous. Much better to restrict the benefits that are paid and do something serious about the rich paying little or no tax.

8UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:10 pm

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Exactly the reason why I do not agree with compulsory termination. Some parents could be very wealthy and wish to keep the child and have sufficient funds to care for it.

I totally agree that the ultimate decision should rest with the mother but what if the mother is a crack whore who only gives a shit about where her next fix is coming from ?

9UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:00 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Where do you draw the line though?

How about people like Sutcliffe and Huntley who are never going to leave prison and are just a drain on resources?

Or folks like Abu Hamza who we don't even want in this country and is costing an arm and a leg on benefits, housing and security for him?

Maybe the 170,000 refused leave to stay in Britain that we've some how lost track of!

Or even those who can legally be here like the Romanian and Bulgarians!

What about our scrotes and Chavs who spend their benefit money on drugs and await their turn on the Jeremy Kyle Show?

How about the ones who actually want assistance to end their lives but the law won't allow it!

I guess I may have felt the same as the UKIP candidate many years back but I've known two people who have been born with that affliction and I can honestly say my life as been made all the richer for having the good fortune to get to know them.

I'm grateful that my child was born normal but I don't doubt I would love her any the less if she had not been.

If we can't give aid, love and compassion to those born less fortunate enough than ourselves then we lose our own humanity.

If anybody as to go then lose those who choose to take from society and give nothing back and treasure those who are born with love in their hearts but who need help to grow strong.

10UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:14 pm

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Subjects like euthanasia and abortion are always going to stir debate. It's our humanity and compassion that sets us apart from every other creature on the planet.

Life is precious and natures rule is always survival of the fittest. It's the Axiom for all aspects of life other than the human species. Advances in science and medicine have allowed us to keep people alive whereas Mother Nature has no scruples.

11UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:32 pm

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

As I've said previously, the measure of how civilised a society is, is measured by how well they look after their sick and disabled. As time goes by, the way they are cared for will change, dependent upon social attitudes , government edicts, and facilities provided. The effectiveness of the support provided is dependent on everything coming together at the same time in a cost effective and sustainable manner. Unfortunately, sensitivities allow fewer possibilities to discuss what may be repugnant, and distressing. As a result, we never seem ready to discuss issues that will become problems in the future. I personally feel that whatever decisions are made, the individual's quality of life is always taken into account, and it should be relatives who make any life -changing decisions, (within whatever social and financial parameters are deemed acceptable at the time).

12UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:41 am

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

As I've said a million times, at some point in time a government is going to have to be brave and start making decisions for people - the way we are going we will run out of money/space/food/fuel in no time at all. I don't agree with the UKIP guy, but it's no longer about doing the right thing for individuals, it's time to start looking at the much bigger picture.

Future generations will look back at our generation and ask why we chose to do nothing.

13UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:10 pm

Reebok_Rebel

Reebok_Rebel
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

Sluffy wrote:Where do you draw the line though?

How about people like Sutcliffe and Huntley who are never going to leave prison and are just a drain on resources?

Or folks like Abu Hamza who we don't even want in this country and is costing an arm and a leg on benefits, housing and security for him?

Maybe the 170,000 refused leave to stay in Britain that we've some how lost track of!

Or even those who can legally be here like the Romanian and Bulgarians!

What about our scrotes and Chavs who spend their benefit money on drugs and await their turn on the Jeremy Kyle Show?

How about the ones who actually want assistance to end their lives but the law won't allow it!

I guess I may have felt the same as the UKIP candidate many years back but I've known two people who have been born with that affliction and I can honestly say my life as been made all the richer for having the good fortune to get to know them.

I'm grateful that my child was born normal but I don't doubt I would love her any the less if she had not been.

If we can't give aid, love and compassion to those born less fortunate enough than ourselves then we lose our own humanity.

If anybody as to go then lose those who choose to take from society and give nothing back and treasure those who are born with love in their hearts but who need help to grow strong.

Fantastic post.... UKIP 459784477

14UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:18 pm

Reebok_Rebel

Reebok_Rebel
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

I'm a big supporter of the UKIP, however if this idiot stays in their ranks I may have to reconsider...

I was going to type a longer post but Sluffy Nailed it above...

15UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:32 pm

Lofty_Love

Lofty_Love
Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Quite surprised at some of the posts on here.

Compulsorily abortion is a sick idea. What is this? a step towards forming an Aryan race? kill off the weak?

If a tiny part of my money is going towards making the life of a family in such a horrible situation a bit better then I cannot see this as a bad thing.

Id rather live in a society where we try to look after the old, sick and disabled and have slightly less money than one in which we let them die for the benefit of a couple of hundreds pounds a year.

Or lets just roll with it and kill off old people once they stop working..

Losing faith in humanity..

16UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:18 pm

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Lofty_Love wrote: What is this? a step towards forming an Aryan race? kill off the weak?


You mock, but in less than 50 years it will be survival of the fittest.

17UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:19 pm

Lofty_Love

Lofty_Love
Andy Walker
Andy Walker

No it won't..

18UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:24 pm

Reebok_Rebel

Reebok_Rebel
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

Lofty_Love wrote:Quite surprised at some of the posts on here.

Compulsorily abortion is a sick idea. What is this? a step towards forming an Aryan race? kill off the weak?

If a tiny part of my money is going towards making the life of a family in such a horrible situation a bit better then I cannot see this as a bad thing.

Id rather live in a society where we try to look after the old, sick and disabled and have slightly less money than one in which we let them die for the benefit of a couple of hundreds pounds a year.

Or lets just roll with it and kill off old people once they stop working..

Losing faith in humanity..

we need a 'like' button...

19UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:25 pm

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Lofty_Love wrote:No it won't..

It will, and I'm willing to bet you £10.

20UKIP Empty Re: UKIP Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:32 pm

bwfc71

bwfc71
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Natasha Whittam wrote:
Lofty_Love wrote: What is this? a step towards forming an Aryan race? kill off the weak?


You mock, but in less than 50 years it will be survival of the fittest.

Actually in 50 years virtually nothing will have changed - possibly more gadgets, car fuel will probably be LPG/Cell battery hybrids, electricity from wind-farms and nuclear power stations and will probably have 3d holographic televisions, and population growth will probably still be on the increase - but due to advancements in science and gadgetry it will all be manageable.

But saying that we only have 2 more dayss until the Mayans got bored of predicting things which wouldn't help them!!!

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