Does Bogdan ever...?

Best game I've seen Bogdan had was at Brighton last season, saved a penalty and made quite a few good saves. 

Don't think he has ever made a save that I wouldn't expect an international keeper to make.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:that was always a criticism of Van Nistelrooy.

No it wasn't. Van Nistlerooy scored many an awesome goal amongst routine tap ins. You could also see his movement and positioning for the straightforward finishes was second to none.

"All i want from Bogdan is to keep the ball out of the net within reason"

What does this even mean? What's within reason? Would you be satisfied if the club signed me on a million pound deal and I just kept the ball out of the net within reason? I'd say one keeper's "within reason" is not within reason for others. It's the difference between great quality and poor quality, which I think is Biggie's question regarding Bogdan.

The so-called "wonder saves" tend to be shots from distance - commentators tend to say the goalie "had no chance" from closer range or call it a "reaction save" if they get in the way. The fact is that we defend so poorly that a higher proportion of the stuff Boggers has to deal with is from closer in, thereby reducing the opportunities to make a "wonder save".
We on the other hand, can't penetrate defences so we end up having hopeful shots from outside the box (many of which are off target) which explains our appalling shots to goals ratio and implies opposition goalies are more likely to make a "wonder save" than Boggers.

doffcocker wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:that was always a criticism of Van Nistelrooy.

No it wasn't. Van Nistlerooy scored many an awesome goal amongst routine tap ins. You could also see his movement and positioning for the straightforward finishes was second to none.

"All i want from Bogdan is to keep the ball out of the net within reason"

What does this even mean? What's within reason? Would you be satisfied if the club signed me on a million pound deal and I just kept the ball out of the net within reason? I'd say one keeper's "within reason" is not within reason for others. It's the difference between great quality and poor quality, which I think is Biggie's question regarding Bogdan.

Yes and Elmander scored one of the best goals I've ever seen but i doubt many people would be saying he was "quality" and "more likely to make the difference." Matty Taylor scored some of the best goals in premier league history and he was "shit."

and within reason just means saveable shots not thunderbolts that fly into the top corner that not even superman would stop.

We'll never have any elite players with immense quality playing for Bolton, sad but true. So i don't really know what we're debating. If Bogdan made a couple of "worldies" in the next game would he automatically be brilliant? Don't get it myself. Agree to disagree on this one i suppose.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:
Yes and Elmander scored one of the best goals I've ever seen but i doubt many people would be saying he was "quality" and "more likely to make the difference." Matty Taylor scored some of the best goals in premier league history and he was "shit."

Sure, not everyone that scored great goals proved a great player. But if you're saying on this basis that you'd be no more encouraged by say a debutant scoring a wonder goal than if he scored a lucky tap in, you're an idiot.

The idea of this thread was to debate just how good a keeper Bogdan is. In order to do that, the difficulty of the saves he's made is a key consideration. Is he just saving everything that it's comfortable for him to? Is he saving the comfortable shots and a few challenging ones? Is he saving the comfortable ones and lots of challenging ones too? Is he making incredible saves but not getting the basics right? These are just reasonable questions in terms of weighing up a keeper for quality.

It'd be crap and pretty senseless if we did it your way and said we'll never have any quality at Bolton, so let's not even talk about it.

We won't ever have any elite talent at this club. I don't see whats so acerbic about saying that.

And i don't think it's idiotic to value a goal or a save vs a wonder goal or a wonder save. Must be out of touch with the modern game.

but as you say move on i think.

Don't think he even made a save today did he?

Hipster_Nebula wrote:We won't ever have any elite talent at this club. I don't see whats so acerbic about saying that.

And i don't think it's idiotic to value a goal or a save vs a wonder goal or a wonder save. Must be out of touch with the modern game.

Whether we will ever have elite talent at the club or not is irrelevant. The level of quality at any given club is open for debate. If you think Bogdan does enough to justify his place in the team and/or is as good as anyone we could replace him with, that's fine.

I don't understand your second paragraph but we'll agree to disagree anyhow.

I can't believe how difficult you are being hipster. I can't even bring myself to answer back. Sorry.

Sticking with boggers is another example of Doogie's thick headed stubborness.  Most feel that Lonnie deserves a chance....and has played well when given a game.....to be dropped the following fixture. Every position at the back has been chopped and changed.....except the goalie.

Of course I'm not blaming boggers for the state of current affairs .....that wasn't the posters question.

Biggie wrote:I can't believe how difficult you are being hipster. I can't even bring myself to answer back. Sorry.

not difficult, just don't agree that the odd wonder save dictates a players ability.

simple as that really.

Ok, I will respond.

I never said it did. I said, he makes the standard saves, the ones that all average keepers should make. The question is, does he ever surprise you and pull anything extra out of the bag?

Yes sometimes, but i really think the upside for him is that he will be no more than an average player. Thats why i got into the other point about the value of wonder saves.

It's all theory but over the course of a season would a few wonder saves have earned us an extra point or two?  If it did we would be looking forward to games against Utd and Liverpool instead of Yeovil....same can be said if we just scored one or two more goals over the course of the season.

Assuming the most goals we score in a game is one.
If ngog was presented with 1 open goal per game from 6 yards out, ie no keeper in the way, and he scored every time, But that is all he ever scored, would he be doing enough?

No. You would still want a striker who didn't only score the ones a kid could score.

I would take 30 tap ins a season over lets say, 13 stunning strikes.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:I would take 30 tap ins a season over lets say, 13 stunning strikes.

We all would. That's not answering the question.

If Player A scored 5 lucky tap ins in 10 games, and Player B scored 5 goals that took real individual quality in 10 games, assuming they gave equal amounts in other aspects of their game, you'd say there was a better argument for Player B to start the 11th game than Player A.

Please find a reasonable bone and admit to agreeing at least with that.

I bet biggie wouldn't.

Yes you could make the case if you had one of those players who had that "moment of magic" type skill, not many of those players about really and we certainly don't have any. That was sort of the point i was making the value of the blue moon "wonder strike/save" is really minimal when you're talking about a team like ours, for me anyway.

But if you're talking lets say RVP vs Michu i suspect most would take RVP. Or RVP vs Benteke. That elite level is a different story.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

Yes you could make the case if you had one of those players who had that "moment of magic" type skill, not many of those players about really and we certainly don't have any. That was sort of the point i was making the value of the blue moon "wonder strike/save" is really minimal when you're talking about a team like ours, for me anyway.

You could go as far down as Sunday League and find there are players that produce the phenomenal for that respective level, compared with players that don't. Strikers that can only score goals when it's handed to them on a plate, strikers that can take on a whole defence before sliding it in the bottom corner. The concept applies throughout football.

When I played (Right Half in those days) it was just taken for granted that the 'goaly' knew what he was doing.
Anything inside the six-yard box was his and he would shout (very loudly) MINE.

I cannot understand the assumption that is being put forward that a good or even halfway decent keeper must be a good 'shot stopper'. I'm not really a fan of stats but the average shots on target in each game is about five or six and most of those are pretty much at the keeper.

What I'm trying to say is that the most important part of the keepers job is to boss your area, orginise the back four and if you can pull off the odd fantastic safe, well that's a bonus.