Prayers or doctors...

Fabrice Muamba's fiance tweeted "your prayers are working" after the player spoke to her yesterday.
Although Muamba's condition is still serious his family and friends have good reason to expect him to make a good recovery.

But what helps most in these type of situations? Prayer or doctors and medical advances?

I will answer my own question here.
The simple answer is that prayer does not work in these cases.

Why do I think that?
Well what do you think would have happened if no medical staff had run onto the pitch to help but instead everyone in the stadium got on their knees and prayed? Would he have survived?
No.

If he was taken to church and prayed for by a congregation and the pope would he have stood a better chance than going to the London Chest Hospital?

If praying had been shown to work then would not our hospitals be filled with religious men with bibles instead of doctors and surgeons with medications and such.

If prayer worked better than doctors then why do we have a much higher survival rate following accidents, heart attacks, diseases etc than we had 100 years ago when nearly everyone prayed every day?

Why do we have more successful hospitals in our non religious country and better survival rates than they do in certain countries in Africa where they pray for everything?

It really bugs me when irrational thinking gives credit where it is not due. And I don't mean just in this case. I mean in all walks of life and especially where religion and prayer are concerned. I am not having a go at Muamba's finace for being religious or for praying, that is up to her. I just don't buy it.

jayjay23 wrote:I will answer my own question here.
The simple answer is that prayer does not work in these cases.

Why do I think that?
Well what do you think would have happened if no medical staff had run onto the pitch to help but instead everyone in the stadium got on their knees and prayed? Would he have survived?
No.

If he was taken to church and prayed for by a congregation and the pope would he have stood a better chance than going to the London Chest Hospital?

If praying had been shown to work then would not our hospitals be filled with religious men with bibles instead of doctors and surgeons with medications and such.

If prayer worked better than doctors then why do we have a much higher survival rate following accidents, heart attacks, diseases etc than we had 100 years ago when nearly everyone prayed every day?

Why do we have more successful hospitals in our non religious country and better survival rates than they do in certain countries in Africa where they pray for everything?

It really bugs me when irrational thinking gives credit where it is not due. And I don't mean just in this case. I mean in all walks of life and especially where religion and prayer are concerned. I am not having a go at Muamba's finace for being religious or for praying, that is up to her. I just don't buy it.

Who created the doctors?

Angry Dad wrote:

jayjay23 wrote:I will answer my own question here.
The simple answer is that prayer does not work in these cases.

Why do I think that?
Well what do you think would have happened if no medical staff had run onto the pitch to help but instead everyone in the stadium got on their knees and prayed? Would he have survived?
No.

If he was taken to church and prayed for by a congregation and the pope would he have stood a better chance than going to the London Chest Hospital?

If praying had been shown to work then would not our hospitals be filled with religious men with bibles instead of doctors and surgeons with medications and such.

If prayer worked better than doctors then why do we have a much higher survival rate following accidents, heart attacks, diseases etc than we had 100 years ago when nearly everyone prayed every day?

Why do we have more successful hospitals in our non religious country and better survival rates than they do in certain countries in Africa where they pray for everything?

It really bugs me when irrational thinking gives credit where it is not due. And I don't mean just in this case. I mean in all walks of life and especially where religion and prayer are concerned. I am not having a go at Muamba's finace for being religious or for praying, that is up to her. I just don't buy it.

Who created the doctors?

Not prayers.
Whether God exists is another topic.

I hope you're joking.

I'm a believer in positive thinking and thats all Prayer is really, it's important, if you can, to put things in perspective, stay positive and if "praying" helps you thats fantastic.

but if you're seriously suggesting we do away with doctors and use prayer instead... come on.

I wouldn't say I am true believer in God but things like this must make you think if you are Fabrice or people close to him.

Yes it was the Doctors and medics that saved him there is no denying that but what's wrong with people praying for him, if it makes them feel good about themselves and they think it works then so be it.

Advances in modern medicine kept Muamba alive. It's nice to think prayer may have helped his cause but there is no scientific evidence to support this.

jayjay23

I think you are missing the point.

Fabrice and his family are religious people. If people praying for Fabrice helps them to stay positive, then the prayers of others work.

Nobody is suggesting that God got involved in Fabrice Muamba's heart starting up again, clearly that was due to medical intervention. As to whether God got involved with his recovery, personally I doubt it, but none of us know the answer.

I think the same outcome would have been achieved if nobody had prayed.

Prayers and positive thinking have helped people cope with what's been a heartbreaking four days, but they haven't helped Muamba - only the medics have done that!

Remember the Pray for Ken Bigley campaign? That was a success...

God does not intervene in our lives,when someone dies and the church tell you to pray for their souls unless that person believed it wont make any difference to their destination.If god does not stop all the tragic things that happen on this planet like famine and the like or help the 250 a week that suffer the same heart failure why would he intervene for a particular footballer? but he does walk alongside you.

largehat wrote:jayjay23

I think you are missing the point.

Fabrice and his family are religious people. If people praying for Fabrice helps them to stay positive, then the prayers of others work.

Nobody is suggesting that God got involved in Fabrice Muamba's heart starting up again, clearly that was due to medical intervention. As to whether God got involved with his recovery, personally I doubt it, but none of us know the answer.

I think thoughts like your last sentence open up a whole new philosophical debate, We don't know the answer but lets hypothesise that God did help Fab, why didn't help the young girl who died from a similar incident in school the other day (read it in the mail today.)

are we really to assume that God picks and choses his 'victims,' i think incidents like this would suggest it's all mundane coincidence and a large slice of luck.

It's a good question, HN, and the standard Christian answer is a key reason why we live in an increasingly secular country.

Apparently children getting murdered is the result of
a - God giving us free will
b - God's plan

Perhaps the good Reverend Whittam can enlighten us further.

Stick with the facts.
Fans, players and others around the world prayed for Fabrice and he seems to be on the road to recovery.
I had a mate who had a heart attack but very few people knew about it and therefore few prayers were said. He died.
Top notch statistical evidence clearly proving that prayer works.

doffcocker wrote:

Remember the Pray for Ken Bigley campaign? That was a success...

You are right about Bigley. Wasn't he a scouser ? For some reason no-one seems to like scousers.

On the subject of prayers I can remember watching a documentary when the London Philharmonic Orchestra toured Japan.

The Japanese commentator clearly stated, " The audience crapped as the band prayed. The more the band prayed the more the audience crapped. " On that basuis, there must be sumething in this praying lark.

largehat wrote:It's a good question, HN, and the standard Christian answer is a key reason why we live in an increasingly secular country.

Apparently children getting murdered is the result of
a - God giving us free will
b - God's plan

Perhaps the good Reverend Whittam can enlighten us further.

All I will say is this: while I pray all the time, I have only twice asked God to help me personally.

1) For my sister to come through the birth of her first child as she was at high risk.

2) For Bolton to beat Knob End in the Play-Off Final at Cardiff.

He came through both times.

Praying only makes the person that is doing the praying feel better.

Copper Dragon wrote:Praying only makes the person that is doing the praying feel better.

Yeah, that's why Muamba's fiance has said that Muamba has felt all other people's prayers.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

largehat wrote:It's a good question, HN, and the standard Christian answer is a key reason why we live in an increasingly secular country.

Apparently children getting murdered is the result of
a - God giving us free will
b - God's plan

Perhaps the good Reverend Whittam can enlighten us further.

All I will say is this: while I pray all the time, I have only twice asked God to help me personally.

1) For my sister to come through the birth of her first child as she was at high risk.

2) For Bolton to beat Knob End in the Play-Off Final at Cardiff.

He came through both times.

There you go - more statistical evidence that prayer works.
Tough to argue against a 100% record and the facts back it up.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

largehat wrote:It's a good question, HN, and the standard Christian answer is a key reason why we live in an increasingly secular country.

Apparently children getting murdered is the result of
a - God giving us free will
b - God's plan

Perhaps the good Reverend Whittam can enlighten us further.

All I will say is this: while I pray all the time, I have only twice asked God to help me personally.

1) For my sister to come through the birth of her first child as she was at high risk.

2) For Bolton to beat Knob End in the Play-Off Final at Cardiff.

He came through both times.

No he didnt,he does not make your team win or your ticket win and he certainly didnt make bolton win just for you.He is not a genie in a bottle granting wishes.

Angry Dad wrote:No he didnt,he does not make your team win or your ticket win and he certainly didnt make bolton win just for you.He is not a genie in a bottle granting wishes.

If you truly believe in him God will help you. Not if you pray for every little thing, but if you just ask for help on the big occasions like Play Off Finals he will come good.