Gartside's Worst Manager - Megson v Coyle

Breadman wrote:"I just think an inept manager which Coyle clearly was is worse than a manager who does get results, even though you may not like him or how he achieves them."


Sorry Sluff, but you can't have it both ways, mate.


By your own figures, you can't get a fag paper between their respective "success" records, so to describe Megson as a manager "who gets results" and imply that Coyle doesn't is a bit misleading in my book.

The stats were they were identical were for the 2009/10 season only.

Career stats for the same measurement - ie average points per game - as manager for Bolton, shows Megson in front.

Coyle's win ratio was 33.33% whilst managing Bolton, while Megson's was 27.55%

BoltonTillIDie wrote:Coyle's win ratio was 33.33% whilst managing Bolton, while Megson's was 27.55%

And Coyles loss ratio was a staggering 47.62% to Megson's 25.80%!!!

The only meaningful measure is average points per game.

We were averaging a point a game when Megson was sacked. That works out at 38 points over a season, not enough to keep some teams up (Blackpool were relegated on 39 the season after in a much tougher league). Something had to change, not only for personal reasons, but footballing too. Yes, if we'd carried on at that rate, we'd have stayed up that season, but who's to say we would? The way we were playing, I wouldn't have banked on it.

The best season we've had post-Allardyce was Coyle's first in charge. 46 points is very decent, the football was excellent, the cup run was a massive achievement despite the Stoke match. Even the season we got relegated was only a win and two draws worse than Megson's best season.

And Megson finished higher up the league in 13th place than anything Coyle could ever achieve.

Yes 40 points is a rule of thumb to stay up but in 2009/10, 31 were good enough to stay up yet a few years earlier West Ham were relegated with 42 points!

You can only judge each season in isolation as there are so many variables it is like comparing apples to oranges otherwise.

Sluffy wrote:

BoltonTillIDie wrote:Coyle's win ratio was 33.33% whilst managing Bolton, while Megson's was 27.55%

And Coyles loss ratio was a staggering 47.62% to Megson's 25.80%!!!

The only meaningful measure is average points per game.

ahh yes didn't take that into consideration

Megson's points per game was 1.10; Coyle's was 1.48

Manager	Games	wins	losses	draws	Pts	Pts / Games
Gary Megson	97	27	45	26	107	1.10
Owen Coyle	126	42	24	60	186	1.48

Your figures are wrong.

Megson achieved 126 points from 97 games and Coyle 150 from 126 league games.

Megson points average per game 1.30, Coyle's 1.19.

My new stats still say otherwise - but my stats are from Wiki, so obviously maybe not 100% accurate. How many wins and draws do you have Megson achieving?  I re-calculated as follows.

Manager	Games	wins	losses	draws	Pts	Pts per game
Gary Megson	98	27	45	26	107	1.09
Owen Coyle	126	42	60	24	150	1.19

Look we can argue this till we're blue in the face but what it seems to boil down to is that many think Coyle was worse primarily because we went down under his leadership. I can understand that point of view and even sympathise with it because we'd all forgotten how relegation really felt and a lot of us were too young to know anyway. 

But I maintain that under Coyle we played more attractive and entertaining football in his first full season that brought a wonderful buzz to the place. Sluffy mentions Megson finishing 13th BUT he was clear of the drop by just six points and all the way to the 36th game of the season it was still possible for us to be relegated. In fact we were saved by the teams below us performing worse than expected, some MUCH worse rather than by anything we did. 

Under Coyle we never even looked at the bottom half of the table until AFTER the Stoke match and by then it was already mathematically certain that we would not only survive but could finish no lower than the 14th position we wound up in. 

I for one prefer looking at possible Euro football for most of the season and getting to an FA cup semi-final rather than biting my nails as we spend thirty eight games in the bottom five and play dire negative crap to boot while we get dumped out of the cups in the early rounds.

No offence sluffy but if the only thing that mattered was the points per game and no one cares HOW we play then why is there so much debate on every single football fan's forum? 

Football is a form of entertainment and an expensive one at that. I felt I got value for my money under Coyle even when we lost. Under Megson I never felt that even when we won. People talk about the Europa Cup, Lisbon and Munich (I got to Lisbon, missed Munich and watched it on TV) but Megson didn't get us there and he never ever looked like he would or could get us out of the bottom six domestically. Coyle made us all feel good for a lot of his time with us. He tried to play the game the way it SHOULD be played but he was a bit too gung-ho about it. There is an argument for Megson style tactics against the likes of Arsenal and Man City et al but Megson used them ALL the time while Coyle NEVER used them. 

Ultimately both men were wrong but as I said earlier for me the key question is who brought pride and belief to the club and fans and who brought negativity, dissension and poisonous anger? 

I firmly feel that the answer to that question is even more important than just points per game. I suspect many fans do too or we'd have a packed house every match no matter how defensive and negative the manager's tactics are.

Sluffy wrote:And Megson finished higher up the league in 13th place than anything Coyle could ever achieve.

Yes 40 points is a rule of thumb to stay up but in 2009/10, 31 were good enough to stay up yet a few years earlier West Ham were relegated with 42 points!

You can only judge each season in isolation as there are so many variables it is like comparing apples to oranges otherwise.

Earlier in the thread, you told us that the only meaningful measurement was average points per game, yet you consider Megson's 13th place finish on 41 points more credible than Coyle's 14th place finish on 46 points.

You also say that "you can only judge each season in isolation there are so many variables it is like comparing apples and oranges", yet you compare Megson's average points per game with Coyle's, which is clearly the same principle.

BoltonTillIDie wrote:My new stats still say otherwise - but my stats are from Wiki, so obviously maybe not 100% accurate. How many wins and draws do you have Megson achieving?  I re-calculated as follows.

     

Manager	Games	wins	losses	draws	Pts	Pts per game
Gary Megson	98	27	45	26	107	1.09
Owen Coyle	126	42	60	24	150	1.19

I think you will find that you have got your draws and losses for Megson the wrong way around.

I agree your corrected stats for Coyle.

doffcocker wrote:

Sluffy wrote:And Megson finished higher up the league in 13th place than anything Coyle could ever achieve.

Yes 40 points is a rule of thumb to stay up but in 2009/10, 31 were good enough to stay up yet a few years earlier West Ham were relegated with 42 points!

You can only judge each season in isolation as there are so many variables it is like comparing apples to oranges otherwise.

Earlier in the thread, you told us that the only meaningful measurement was average points per game, yet you consider Megson's 13th place finish on 41 points more credible than Coyle's 14th place finish on 46 points.

You also say that "you can only judge each season in isolation there are so many variables it is like comparing apples and oranges", yet you compare Megson's average points per game with Coyle's, which is clearly the same principle.

No I was just being illustrative of how meaningless comparing season to season was by highlighting Megson's higher league position, which is as irrelevant as Coyle only being a win and two draws off Megson's best finish, when he got the club relegated.

I highligted Megson and Coyle's stats for one season only (in which they both managed the club) - 2009/10 to show how miniscule there was in their performance - yet people believe (and still do) that Megson would have got us relegated and Coyle saved us.

Anything other than season only stats are somewhat meaningless but they are the best measure we have of comparison of managers over a period of time.

I'm starting to grow suspicious of the vote count on this thread.

This is what happened in Florida when Dubbya got in....... 

I voted secretly. My lips are sealed.

@Peter and others so vociferous in the defence of Coyle.

If I was the ONLY one who had the view that Coyle was a worse manager than Megson, I could understand your efforts in trying to persuade me otherwise that I was wrong about him but even with our little poll 52% of the people who have voted so far also share the same view as I.  52% is not a small insignificant figure - in fact it is the majority of voters so far!!!

Considering Megson is seen by many as the Devil's own spawn, do you not think that maybe, just maybe, Coyle was not such a wonderful manager as you protest he is - possibly because of your hatred of Megson as clouded your judgement?

As I've said above on this thread, there is no right or wrong answers and your opinion of what constitutes a good manager is just as valid as what mine is.

I simply see Megson as a better manager than Coyle, the facts of the season they were in direct comparison to each other proves for that season only, there was nothing between the two on the pitch - which is where I like to base my judgement on rather than their respective personalities in front of a microphone, which have never added a single point towards the clubs league position.

The fact the Coyle took us down, with a team that should not have been relegated, condeming the club to a mega million pound loss season on season that we are outside the Premier League, combined with his lack of any tactics on the pitch and the absolute crap he lumbered the club and its finances with, clinches for me, my judgement of him.

If you don't agree with me, so what?

Isn't that part of the fun of being a football fan?

Nobody died, nobody got hurt and two completely useless managers (one more useless than the other though!) earned millions from our club and laughed about it (and our misery) all the way to their respective banks.

I've just voted!

Coyle was shite no doubt but Megson ??? he took it to another level. However our present dick is getting seriously close,both the other two were inept and lacking in the necessary skills to manage both a football club and the staff therein.The jock is incapable of any management skills on or off the field and is stubborn beyond reason,only time will tell if he passes those two fuckwits but I for one wouldnt be surprised if he doesnt make them both look like saints in comparison.

JAH wrote:RT can you not remember where we were in the league when we sacked Megson and how Coyle steered us to safety that year? FFS people have short memories.

I can indeed. I was there that night when we were 2-0 up and coasting against Hull. My son was a mascot that cold winter night and nobody was happier than me on hearing the news the next morning that Megson was history.

I was also guilty of joining the hyperbole at the news that Coyle had left Burnley to join us. I reasoned that his achievement at getting Burnley promoted on a limited budget was a massive bonus to us. The fact he had a solid home record at Burnley coupled with the fact that he was a former Wanderer instilled me with confidence.

With hindsight I have to say that the football wasn't really much better than under Megson. We had a good run in the FA cup up to the semi-finals but looking back I think the Cup run just papered over the cracks. Coyle comes across as a decent bloke but that doesn't make him a good manager.

Megson was hated the moment the ink was dry on his signature. He signed Klasnic and Cahill but his legacy will always be the night in Portugal in the Euros when he shafted the fans by picking a inferior team. He pissed on his chips that night and I will never forgive him for that. After that loss in Portugal his reputation with Wanderers fans was lower than Whale shit.

Having said that, I still think he is a better manager than Coyle.

Freedman seems to combine Megsons tedious negative shite with Coyles one dimensional garbage, and stubborn refusal to admit it does not work, the worst of both worlds!!!

Reebok Trotter wrote:

JAH wrote:RT can you not remember where we were in the league when we sacked Megson and how Coyle steered us to safety that year? FFS people have short memories.

I can indeed. I was there that night when we were 2-0 up and coasting against Hull. My son was a mascot that cold winter night and nobody was happier than me on hearing the news the next morning that Megson was history.

I was also guilty of joining the hyperbole at the news that Coyle had left Burnley to join us. I reasoned that his achievement at getting Burnley promoted on a limited budget was a massive bonus to us. The fact he had a solid home record at Burnley coupled with the fact that he was a former Wanderer instilled me with confidence.

With hindsight I have to say that the football wasn't really much better than under Megson. We had a good run in the FA cup up to the semi-finals but looking back I think the Cup run just papered over the cracks. Coyle comes across as a decent bloke but that doesn't make him a good manager.

Megson was hated the moment the ink was dry on his signature. He signed Klasnic and Cahill but his legacy will always be the night in Portugal in the Euros when he shafted the fans by picking a inferior team. He pissed on his chips that night and I will never forgive him for that. After that loss in Portugal his reputation with Wanderers fans was lower than Whale shit.

Having said that, I still think he is a better manager than Coyle.

Was there that night RT and was astounded at the team sheet he named,all to theoretically save his best team to beat Wigan the following game which in Ginger Mourinhos eyes was more important. That one game above all others makes Megson piss it im afraid,twat !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!