Gartside's Worst Manager - Megson v Coyle

And to compound our misery we lost to Wigan as well.

I voted Megson - not just because of the football (including fluke draw against Munich and a very flukey win against a strong United side - also remember after these matches we lost games which were considered to be potential winners) - but because of his attitude to the club and its supporters!

I gave Coyle a chance but he did have an uphill struggle after Megson, and actually did well considering.  Even the build-up of longterm of injuries, during that ill-fated pre-season, didn't help the cause.   Lets not forget that it was 1 goal that made the difference between us surviving or getting the drop in the 2011/12 season (we got the drop as well all know).  

My own belief, not a stat or fact, is that Megson would have taken us down in the 2009-10 season (his last) if he had not been put on gardening leave!!!

Many believe, that the Wembley final was the catalyst for our downfall.  If anything that had already started once Big Sam left (we were already dropping points by then anyway).  Sammy Lee brought in  a large number of players, over the summer months, who did not fit in (although we had a successful pre-season), Megson was given millions to bring in over-priced mediocre players and then Coyle was left with virtually nothing to spend whilst it now look like we have to even less under Freedman!

But during that period of downturn, Megson's has to be the worst, personally speaking.

I still think Sluffty is a secret bitter Burnley supporter. Only feasible explanation why he hates him so much. I hate Megson but I don't write essays about why he's crap!  Thou doth protest too much ye old six fingered hag!

JAH wrote:I still think Sluffty is a secret bitter Burnley supporter. Only feasible explanation why he hates him so much. I hate Megson but I don't write essays about why he's crap!  Thou doth protest too much ye old six fingered hag!

Yeah, you're right, you've found me out.

I've posted for years on Bolton forums, even before Coyle became BURNLEY manager, just on the off chance that he would ditch them and join Bolton - how clever was I to guess that might happen.

I even set up my own Bolton Wanderers forum and fooled a load of Bolton born and bred fans to help me get it established and grow like it has.

Either all of that or I may have made you look a little bit silly by pointing out that Coyle's performance was all but identical to Megson's in the season he was sacked and you've got a little bit pissy over it.

  






If I've upset you today, then I'm sorry.  I was just stating the facts, not looking for an arguement with you - or anyone else.

Thanks Owen

Sluffy wrote:

doffcocker wrote:

Sluffy wrote:And Megson finished higher up the league in 13th place than anything Coyle could ever achieve.

Yes 40 points is a rule of thumb to stay up but in 2009/10, 31 were good enough to stay up yet a few years earlier West Ham were relegated with 42 points!

You can only judge each season in isolation as there are so many variables it is like comparing apples to oranges otherwise.

Earlier in the thread, you told us that the only meaningful measurement was average points per game, yet you consider Megson's 13th place finish on 41 points more credible than Coyle's 14th place finish on 46 points.

You also say that "you can only judge each season in isolation there are so many variables it is like comparing apples and oranges", yet you compare Megson's average points per game with Coyle's, which is clearly the same principle.

No I was just being illustrative of how meaningless comparing season to season was by highlighting Megson's higher league position, which is as irrelevant as Coyle only being a win and two draws off Megson's best finish, when he got the club relegated.

I highligted Megson and Coyle's stats for one season only (in which they both managed the club) - 2009/10 to show how miniscule there was in their performance - yet people believe (and still do) that Megson would have got us relegated and Coyle saved us.

Anything other than season only stats are somewhat meaningless but they are the best  measure we have of comparison of managers over a period of time.

If comparing one season with another really is like comparing apples and oranges there's no point having this debate. After all, we're talking about two managers that managed the club over different seasons, 09/10 aside. Indeed there are a lot of variables, which is all the more reason to think Megson's record being stronger than Coyle's doesn't necessarily paint the right picture.

doffcocker wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

doffcocker wrote:

Sluffy wrote:And Megson finished higher up the league in 13th place than anything Coyle could ever achieve.

Yes 40 points is a rule of thumb to stay up but in 2009/10, 31 were good enough to stay up yet a few years earlier West Ham were relegated with 42 points!

You can only judge each season in isolation as there are so many variables it is like comparing apples to oranges otherwise.

Earlier in the thread, you told us that the only meaningful measurement was average points per game, yet you consider Megson's 13th place finish on 41 points more credible than Coyle's 14th place finish on 46 points.

You also say that "you can only judge each season in isolation there are so many variables it is like comparing apples and oranges", yet you compare Megson's average points per game with Coyle's, which is clearly the same principle.

No I was just being illustrative of how meaningless comparing season to season was by highlighting Megson's higher league position, which is as irrelevant as Coyle only being a win and two draws off Megson's best finish, when he got the club relegated.

I highligted Megson and Coyle's stats for one season only (in which they both managed the club) - 2009/10 to show how miniscule there was in their performance - yet people believe (and still do) that Megson would have got us relegated and Coyle saved us.

Anything other than season only stats are somewhat meaningless but they are the best  measure we have of comparison of managers over a period of time.

If comparing one season with another really is like comparing apples and oranges there's no point having this debate. After all, we're talking about two managers that managed the club over different seasons, 09/10 aside. Indeed there are a lot of variables, which is all the more reason to think Megson's record being stronger than Coyle's doesn't necessarily paint the right picture.

I agree and that is why I highlighted the ridiculousness of the issue you were making about things like the points Coyle got when relegated compared to Megson's best season.

The only direct comparison to measure the two against is the shared management if the 2009/10 season, where a failing Megson had just the same managerial impact as a new regime and so called motivational leadership of Owen Coyle.

Most clubs tend to have an 'uplift' when a new manager takes over - ours clearly didn't - it carried on the same under the new broom of Coyle.

Indeed apart from Eagles (I seem to recall Holden was injured at the time we signed him), more or less every Coyle signing which he brought in to improve the team, sat on the bench, whilst the Megson era players who he obviously had plans to replace in the team, carried on playing.  That pattern continued throughout his tenure, even to the extent of resigning Knight for two years and a clearly shot Kevin Davies for one after being relegated.

As I've already said previously, if I was on my own with my negative views of Coyle's managerial abilities, then I could understand why you and others have railed against my views of him but the poll clearly shows many others (even a majority as I post) sharing my opinion.

Now considering Megson is made out to be the Devil himself by his detractors and Coyle a saint by his supporters, don't you find that somewhat of a surprise?

I don't.

I think more rounded people such as RT above, can put aside the personal animosity towards Megson as a person and judge him as a manager, whilst others simply can't see past the man and judge his managementship emotionally rather than rationally.

And that is why the score on this poll is not a landslide victory for Coyle as I'm sure some would have expected.

Coyle was never a saint in my eyes but he was a good guy who made us feel proud to be trotters again if only for a while. His style of football was fun to watch when it worked, his demeanour was far more pleasant and he reached out to the fans rather than berate and belittle them even when things went wrong. I would be the first to admit he failed and wasn't good enough but for me it boils down to an experience that was as much subjective as objective. 

Stats matter but so does how a manager makes you feel, which experience was subjectively better? 

The fact Coyle made me enjoy going to the Bok while Megson made me hate it so much I refused to set foot in the place and refused to renew my season ticket in summer 2009 is one of the main reasons I still feel Megson was our worst EVER manager. 

That doesn't mean Coyle was great, in fact he wasn't but this isn't about which manager was good or bad, just which of two bad managers was worse. In my humble opinion in that respect there is no contest. 

One took us on a run that led to Wembley and still produced some really great high points in the season we went down despite some appalling luck with injuries (although they DON'T excuse his failure even though I believe they were a factor in it) while the other made me so depressed even when we won that going to a game became a chore I was no longer willing to do. I never stopped loving BWFC but under Megson the only way I could really show that and the unhappiness I felt over what was being done to our beloved club was to stay away. I was far from alone in that unhappy necessity. Under Coyle it was a genuine pleasure to sit in the stand next to my sons and even when we lost I felt we'd had value for our money and the players out there had given their all. 

Ultimately both men had the same fault. They had a one dimensional mindset that made them stick to a system that had worked for them once already and lacked the imagination or perhaps the ability to adapt it when needed. Megson's other faults mean that in my opinion he was worse overall. If you don't agree I can respect that but I'll never change my view that Megson was the worst thing to happen to our club since the horrid days of the eighties when we weren't even sure we'd HAVE a club next week much less next season.

Sluffy wrote:
As I've already said previously, if I was on my own with my negative views of Coyle's managerial abilities, then I could understand why you and others have railed against my views of him but the poll clearly shows many others (even a majority as I post) sharing my opinion.

Coyle was a useless tactician and he spent money badly. I've never had any arguments against that, but to say the same doesn't equally apply to Megson is where I do have an issue. Megson actually had twice as much to spend as Coyle.

It seems a lot of people base their opinions on this matter solely on that Coyle relegated us during his tenure where Megson didn't. By that logic, if we'd took a point or two more in the 11/12 season, or one less in the 07/08 season, this thread would look completely different. And by your own admission, a point is nothing. It's the difference between a bit of sheer dumb luck going your way and it not going your way. The margins are that fine, it's a pathetic basis to judge a manager's capabilities.

I've not read of anybody judging Coyle's ability solely on him getting the team relegated - perhaps you could point to where these people have said this please?

As for Megson and his transfer dealings, yes he did have more money and did buy poorly on the whole but surely if you have little or no money then isn't it more important to spend it more wisely? You simply don't have the luxury of wasting it, as there is nothing left for a second chance purchace.

How Coyle could waste the last transfer window in the Premier league in panic buying Sordell (on the last hours of the last day in the window), who he clearly had not researched, instead of a midfield replacement for Holden that the team had desperately been crying out for all season long, was absolute stupidity, which clearly showed he had no idea about the blatently obvious needs of his own team and his complete lack of a coherent transfer policy. Knee jerk blind panic stupidity just about somes it up.

Yet you still think he was better than Megson!

He must have really pissed you off.

I think it's fair to say Coyle could motivate the players when he first came. In the first year or so that's what everyone was saying I remember reading an interview with Jack Wilshere and he said Coyle would make it to the top because he could get the best out of his players and they wanted to play for him. In part the stink that Megson left behind will have helped Coyle in that he must have seemed a god send by comparison!

It was short term though and definitely wore off. Once Holden was injured he got found out badly and I've never found a manager more frustrating than Coyle because he made the same mistakes week in week out, we never drew games because he had no idea how to close them out.

I'd still say Megson is worse though, he had money to spend and blew it on some very over-priced players IMO. He took over at a crucial time in our history and he never should have been given that chance. I think over the course of a season there wouldn't be much to pick between Coyle and Megson but (as others have said) Coyle at least wasn't a complete twat and didn't create such a horrible feeling around the club.

Sluffy wrote:I've not read of anybody judging Coyle's ability solely on him getting the team relegated - perhaps you could point to where these people have said this please?

As for Megson and his transfer dealings, yes he did have more money and did buy poorly on the whole but surely if you have little or no money then isn't it more important to spend it more wisely?  You simply don't have the luxury of wasting it, as there is nothing left for a second chance purchace.

How Coyle could waste the last transfer window in the Premier league in panic buying Sordell (on the last hours of the last day in the window), who he clearly had not researched, instead of a midfield replacement for Holden that the team had desperately been crying out for all season long, was absolute stupidity, which clearly showed he had no idea about the blatently obvious needs of his own team and his complete lack of a coherent transfer policy.  Knee jerk blind panic stupidity just about somes it up.

Yet you still think he was better than Megson!

He must have really pissed you off.

There's been countless posts over the last couple of years simply to the tune of "Megson was better, because at least he kept us up". Even if not everybody writes it as simply as that it's invariably gonna distort some peoples opinions.

Indeed it is more important to spend money wisely when it's of the essence but I guess that's a challenge we'll never know if Megson would have passed. Another example of that is the challenge of coping without your best player. Can you honestly imagine if Kevin Davies - who our hoofball under Megson was almost entirely dependent on - had broke his leg? I suppose Megson would have just gone out and found somebody that did exactly the same job, no problems. Or even better, he'd have found us a 21 year old with lightning pace and the touch and finish of a genius, and we'd have built a team around him instead.

You talk like there's hundreds of players of Holden's quality out there within a club like Bolton's grasp. I think Coyle decided Reo-Coker was as good as we were realistically gonna get and looked to improve the front line instead. Sordell was a panic buy and an all round mistake but to put things into perspective, he cost us the same as Megson paid for a 16 year old centre half we never saw and Danny Shittu who hardly ever played (probably just as well). We actually got a bit of money back on Sordell unlike them two.

doffcocker wrote:

You talk like there's hundreds of players of Holden's quality out there within a club like Bolton's grasp. I think Coyle decided Reo-Coker was as good as we were realistically gonna get and looked to improve the front line instead. Sordell was a panic buy and an all round mistake but to put things into perspective, he cost us the same as Megson paid for a 16 year old centre half we never saw and Danny Shittu who hardly ever played (probably just as well). We actually got a bit of money back on Sordell unlike them two.

Who is this £4m invisible 16 year old? We only paid £2m for Shittu, which was admittedly a waste of money but half the price of Sordell and he did occasionally get picked for the team unlike Sordell. It was bad enough that Coyle wasted the money but to not even play him as well?

doffcocker wrote:It seems a lot of people base their opinions on this matter solely on that Coyle relegated us during his tenure where Megson didn't.

So you can't find a single person posting that they based their opinion of Coyle solely on him getting us relegated, I didn't think you would.

Yes, Kevin Davies was a key player in the Megson years and yes he bought others such as Elmander, he could at that time, the money, rightly or wrongly, was there for him to spend, it's not his fault he did.  Wouldn't you in the same circumstances?  I know I would.

I think if you really do believe that Coyle thought after half a season that he didn't want anybody more in midfield than he already had - which clearly was deficient in every sense of the word - would you like me to tell you the number of points we had when the January window opened - then you must be as deluded as Owen was!

Wasting money on Shittu and Connelly (I assume you mean?) was poor, but only small change at the time, wasting a similar amount when that was all you have and your Premier League future depended on it was simply insanity and in no way can be comparable.

I know you have a bee in your bonnet about my views on Coyle, you've let me know about it before, but the current poll is I believe now the largest single vote (as opposed to vote for three, four, five, etc) in our short history of the site and the majority of people who have voted on it view Coyle as a worse manager to Megson, whether you share that view or not.

I am not alone in seeing Megson as better than Coyle.  

No doubt many have the same reasons as I do for this too.

I respect your opinion as to why you prefer Coyle, why can't you somehow respect mine, and the majority of others who have voted on this?

xmiles wrote:

Who is this £4m invisible 16 year old? We only paid £2m for Shittu, which was admittedly a waste of money but half the price of Sordell and he did occasionally get picked for the team unlike Sordell. It was bad enough that Coyle wasted the money but to not even play him as well?

According to Transfermarkt, we paid £1.06m for Mark Connolly, a 16 year old defender from Wolves, and £2.11m for Shittu.

That comes exactly to the £3.17m it claims we paid for Sordell.

Sluffy wrote:

doffcocker wrote:It seems a lot of people base their opinions on this matter solely on that Coyle relegated us during his tenure where Megson didn't.

So you can't find a single person posting that they based their opinion of Coyle solely on him getting us relegated, I didn't think you would.

Yes, Kevin Davies was a key player in the Megson years and yes he bought others such as Elmander, he could at that time, the money, rightly or wrongly, was there for him to spend, it's not his fault he did.  Wouldn't you in the same circumstances?  I know I would.

I think if you really do believe that Coyle thought after half a season that he didn't want anybody more in midfield than he already had - which clearly was deficient in every sense of the word - would you like me to tell you the number of points we had when the January window opened - then you most be as deluded as Owen was!

Wasting money on Shittu and Connelly (I assume you mean?) was poor, but only small change at the time, wasting a similar amount when that was all you have on your Premier League future depended on it was simply insanity and in no way can be comparable.

I know you have a bee in your bonnet about my views on Coyle, you've let me know about it before, but the current poll is I believe now the largest single vote (as opposed to vote for three, four, five, etc) in our short history of the site and the majority of people who have voted on it view Coyle as a worse manager to Megson, whether you share that view or not.

I am not alone in seeing Megson as better than Coyle.  

No doubt many have the same reasons as I do for this too.

I respect your opinion as to why you prefer Coyle, why can't you somehow respect mine, and the majority of others who have voted on this?

It's irrelevant to me whether the majority agrees with me or not. The majority of Bolton fans thought Freedman was tactically astute only twelve months ago.

You talk like I've been confrontational in this thread. I don't believe I have. You on the other hand have called me "deluded" and despite claiming to respect my opinion, continually alluded to the number of people that disagree with me.

Just the sort of diplomacy you expect from a forum leader.

Well I'm sorry if you think I'm a poor forum leader.

For what it is worth there are a number of people who work extremely hard in the back office, to make this forum what it is and non of us consider that we are in anyway superior or subserviant to anyone else, either behind the scenes or on the public forum itself.

We have no leader, we decide the way forward on the site collectively.

We obey the site rules like every other person on this forum, we don't permit ouselves to have any other priviledges that any other member of the site already have.

My use if the word deluded was clearly in the context of you thinking like Coyle and I'm sure you know I'm certainly not the only one who thought he was!

As for referring that your views were in the minority on this poll, that was my gentle attempt to make the conversation between ourselves as less personal and more general in order to prevent any possible confrontation of views occuring.  Perhaps I've failed with that.

I am sorry that I have upset you.  It was not my intent.

Brilliant!

We fucked him off nearly two years ago and yet he's still causing nasty arguments amongst Bolton fans.

That's his legacy.......

Cheers Gary....

Breadman wrote:Brilliant!

We fucked him off nearly two years ago and yet he's still causing nasty arguments amongst Bolton fans.

That's his legacy.......

Cheers Gary....

 

for the record i have never ever thought Freedman was tactically astute, thank you