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Its the players fault but Lennon needs to go

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Natasha Whittam
scottjames30
doffcocker
MartinBWFC
Hipster_Nebula
Norpig
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Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

doffcocker wrote:
Ha ha, I do remember Taggart, Bergsson and N'Gotty funnily enough. Not so much Taggart but the other two like it was just yesterday. I love it when you subtly patronise me like that.

I'm sorry I just don't buy this "you can see it from the stands" nonsense. All you've basically said is that you've - from wherever it is that you sit and watch the game - identified a lack of motivation in the team and that throwing some gobshite into the mix is somehow gonna turn this lot into a competent team.

Taggart, Bergsson and N'Gotty at least had some really talented players to work with. This lot is just a bunch of Championship/League One journeymen I'm afraid.

You really are clueless. Have you ever played a competitive sport?

The history of sport is littered with average players who made it big simply because they were leaders on the pitch.

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy wrote:I've not been at a match in a couple of seasons now but even I know there is obviously something basically wrong when the teams record is 1 win in 29 games.

I know too that Lennon may have been given a poison chalice of a job but I doubt there are many average managers about who can match or do worse than that record.

Clearly from the little bits of snippets that do surface there doesn't seems to be much professional pride in key individuals - Spearing (the club captain remember) went on a four day piss up last season when the club was at (or near) the bottom of the table, Madine (or key striker!) is seen on live TV calling the manager "a fucking prick", and Lennon himself is busy chasing skirt (at least two affairs on the go) and clearly not hiding it (taking his young stuff to the team hotel the day before games).

Yes I know people tell me they can do what they want in their own time and everybody needs to relax at times - but I was brought up with a different outlook and life and you stand up and are counted when things are going wrong.

I've also learned that you earn respect you simply don't get it given to you.

God knows what attitude people have these days but the club from top to bottom does seem to be leaderless.

If we are to go down - and we probably will unless things change soon - then at least let us go down fighting.  We might as well play players who want to give all they have got rather than perhaps more skilful players who just go through the motions.  We may as well go with a coach who tries to get the best out of the players he has rather than one who seems to have lost all faith in everything but his pulling powers.

We want people to want to want to stay behind and work on playing together as a unit rather than get pissed as quickly as they can.

1 win in 29 is an embarrassment.

Do the basics, pick a settled back four and keeper, play a couple of defensive midfielders - park the bus - and practice the set plays as with our strikers we aren't going to be scoring many from free play.

Yes it may be shit to watch but it is backs against the wall time.  A win or two playing ugly might breath a bit of life back in the team because losing 4-0 to teams like Rotherham is certainly not.
this is what i meant to say but Sluffy is far more eloquent than me

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Changing manager won't do it. Look at the cycle since Big Sam. Aside from Little Sam who only got eleven games we had Megson who started off brightly but then fell away with crap football that got worse every match until that horror show against Hull that finally put him in his garden. Coyle, started brightly, top eight in the prem and an fa cup semi-final to boot but then a slide down that led to the drop followed by six (I think) games in the Championship that showed he'd lost it. Freedman, started brightly, all the way to the last day of the season when he lost it all in a single baffling day against Blackpool followed by a season and a half of utter junk that would have sent us down but for a few lucky January signings. Lennon, ..... it's january next week but he can't sign anyone other than a freebie thanks to FFP and no one will want to come to a club that needs the PFA to pay its players and is in court for a tax bill in just under three weeks. He's got nothing to play with, he's HAD nothing to play with and a new man will be in exactly the same boat because this time the squad we have is largely not good enough for this division and no reinforcements are coming. If anyone really thinks there'd be a new manager bounce under the current circumstances then I would suggest you need better medication.

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

scottjames30 wrote:Get Dave Flitcroft or Phil Brown in, enough is enough.
scott, what on earth makes you think they'd even take the job if it was offered? It's like the idiots calling for Jimmy every five minutes. Sure, it's easy to chuck some familiar names into the air but at this time, in these circumstances those names are just that, hot air because no one in his right mind will come to a club that might not even exist in a month or two. 

I understand your frustration and share it in full but in all honesty sacking Neil won't help, not now, not the way things are. You know I rate him anyway but even if you were right and he was rubbish I'm afraid I can't see anyone competent wanting to take this job on.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Changing manager won't do it. Look at the cycle since Big Sam. Aside from Little Sam who only got eleven games we had Megson who started off brightly but then fell away with crap football that got worse every match until that horror show against Hull that finally put him in his garden. Coyle, started brightly, top eight in the prem and an fa cup semi-final to boot but then a slide down that led to the drop followed by six (I think) games in the Championship that showed he'd lost it. Freedman, started brightly, all the way to the last day of the season when he lost it all in a single baffling day against Blackpool followed by a season and a half of utter junk that would have sent us down but for a few lucky January signings. Lennon, ..... it's january next week but he can't sign anyone other than a freebie thanks to FFP and no one will want to come to a club that needs the PFA to pay its players and is in court for a tax bill in just under three weeks. He's got nothing to play with, he's HAD nothing to play with and a new man will be in exactly the same boat because this time the squad we have is largely not good enough for this division and no reinforcements are coming. If anyone really thinks there'd be a new manager bounce under the current circumstances then I would suggest you need better medication.

Two things Peter - if we never change our manager then we will never get another Allardyce.

Also my point earlier is that I think the majority of any given manager put into Lennon's position would have a better record of 1 win in 29 - in fact it defies the odds to achieve 1 win in 29.

Yes I know we have no money and we are probably already doomed to be relegated this season - so we probably can't change if we want to - but I think it fair to say even with the resources available to him that Lennon has greatly underachieved.

I'm not saying any manager could save us from relegation but I think most if not all of them would by now have a better record than just 1 win in 29.

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Sluffy wrote:
luckyPeterpiper wrote:Changing manager won't do it. Look at the cycle since Big Sam. Aside from Little Sam who only got eleven games we had Megson who started off brightly but then fell away with crap football that got worse every match until that horror show against Hull that finally put him in his garden. Coyle, started brightly, top eight in the prem and an fa cup semi-final to boot but then a slide down that led to the drop followed by six (I think) games in the Championship that showed he'd lost it. Freedman, started brightly, all the way to the last day of the season when he lost it all in a single baffling day against Blackpool followed by a season and a half of utter junk that would have sent us down but for a few lucky January signings. Lennon, ..... it's january next week but he can't sign anyone other than a freebie thanks to FFP and no one will want to come to a club that needs the PFA to pay its players and is in court for a tax bill in just under three weeks. He's got nothing to play with, he's HAD nothing to play with and a new man will be in exactly the same boat because this time the squad we have is largely not good enough for this division and no reinforcements are coming. If anyone really thinks there'd be a new manager bounce under the current circumstances then I would suggest you need better medication.

Two things Peter - if we never change our manager then we will never get another Allardyce.

Also my point earlier is that I think the majority of any given manager put into Lennon's position would have a better record of 1 win in 29 - in fact it defies the odds to achieve 1 win in 29.

Yes I know we have no money and we are probably already doomed to be relegated this season - so we probably can't change if we want to - but I think it fair to say even with the resources available to him that Lennon has greatly underachieved.

I'm not saying any manager could save us from relegation but I think most if not all of them would by now have a better record than just 1 win in 29.

Maybe so sluffy but do you really believe anyone decent would take the job right now? I mean sure, sack the manager if all you look at is the results because 1 win in 29 is woeful by any standards but I think you need to look at the wider context. First, the players are mostly junk he inherited and he hasn't been able to sign his own targets, look at that fiasco with the lad from Wolves. Second, he's not going to get anyone in January unless there's a miracle and some Sheikh rolls up with massive wads of cash who doesn't need to mess about studying books etc or finding other people to help him finance a buyout. Third, we're not even paying the players we have by ourselves, we need the PFA to help us do that. Fourth, we still don't really know who is in actual charge of the club because Birch is an "advisor" while Gartside remains chairman but is "ill" and absent. Fifth, the taxman is all over us and there's a (very real imo) danger we won't even have a club to worry about in three months time. 

With all that going on it's no wonder the players confidence is in the bin, that Neil is looking a bit haggard and we're having some truly appalling luck ON the pitch as well as off. I may be baying at the moon here but please tell me who you'd get in if Neil went. Who do you think would even consider taking this job that you really believe could change our fortunes at least on the field.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

I'm not actually arguing for his sacking - I think what is happening at the club precludes that until things are sorted one way or another - what I am saying that it actually takes some achievement to only manage 1 win in 29 - the odds are that any half decent manager given the same circumstances with the same squad would have better than just one win in almost 30 games.

As crap as we are we have players that have performed at a higher level than they have been doing for a large part of their careers to date.

Clearly the players have more to give, so the question must be why they are not?

Seems to me Lennon can't get the best out of them - maybe they don't give a toss for him, or play in the positions they want too but a professional footballer being paid around £10,000 a week or more should at least have basic footballing skills and fitness - and to manage just 1 win in 29 suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong about how they are performing - ergo how they are managed, motivated, led, inspired - call it what you will.

I feel sorry for Lennon but he clearly is not helping himself - and this issue in the Sunday papers suggests that his decision making in his private life is not the best never mind his professional one!



luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Sluffy wrote:I'm not actually arguing for his sacking - I think what is happening at the club precludes that until things are sorted one way or another - what I am saying that it actually takes some achievement to only manage 1 win in 29 - the odds are that any half decent manager given the same circumstances with the same squad would have better than just one win in almost 30 games.

As crap as we are we have players that have performed at a higher level than they have been doing for a large part of their careers to date.

Clearly the players have more to give, so the question must be why they are not?

Seems to me Lennon can't get the best out of them - maybe they don't give a toss for him, or play in the positions they want too but a professional footballer being paid around £10,000 a week or more should at least have basic footballing skills and fitness - and to manage just 1 win in 29 suggests that there is something fundamentally wrong about how they are performing - ergo how they are managed, motivated, led, inspired - call it what you will.

I feel sorry for Lennon but he clearly is not helping himself - and this issue in the Sunday papers suggests that his decision making in his private life is not the best never mind his professional one!



But then you have to ask if the reason they're not playing well is because they're NOT getting paid or at least they weren't until the PFA stepped in to help. Let me put it this way to you sluffy, if your employer said you got no wage for November and then refused to even guarantee you'd be paid at Christmas would you really feel like giving your best at work? Let's face it, we all call footballers for the huge wage they can earn but when that wage suddenly drops to zero with no guarantee you're ever going to get it back I don't think many of us would be performing in stellar fashion do you? 

As to his private life, yep, he's a pratt for cheating but the tabloid story was nothing more than an attempt todrum up controversy without quite libelling anyone. It had more holes in it than a Phil Gartside fax and while I think he'd deserve being dumped by his missus I don't believe it should cost him his job. He's not the first man who couldn't keep his pants on and won't be the last. To be fair to the man if all men had the sort of opportunities he's had to bed other women I bet most of us would take it at some point. Pointing fingers and claiming moral superiority in those circumstances is slightly hypocritical imo.

For what it's worth I think Neil has shown courage by staying through what must be awfully stressful conditions in which to try and manage a football club. I think many managers would have gone the moment the true details of our finances began to emerge and no one would blame them. That he hasn't causes me to respect him more not less. 

I believe the only way to truly judge Neil's abilities is to wait until a takeover is completed and he's got something, however little it may be with which to invest in improving the squad. I personally rate him as a football manager and think that we could not get anyone better at any time in the near future. I also believe that a lot of the players are marking time, waiting for january to see if they get sold/released and may not be playing to the maximum of effort and ability in a conscious or subconscious bid to avoid injury that might prevent them getting a move to a place where they WILL be paid on time. I don't think any manager can do anything about that if I'm right. I also can't help wondering if they've known for some time that bad things were happening behind the scenes that might further explain the long, much TOO long run of woeful form.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Tbh I try my best in whatever I do, whether I get paid for it or not.

Football is an entertainment business and the motto of that is 'the show must go on'.

Christ it is not as though they really do much really - they only kick a ball about.

If the players can't even do that for the kids that worship them, then it shows what sort of an attitude they truly have.

There are actually scientific studies that show money is not in itself a motivator. These players WILL get paid eventually - which is more than even the taxman is certain to be.

There is another saying that 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'. Lennon might well be a good manager in different circumstances but 1 win in 29 proves he is the wrong man in the circumstances he finds himself in at Bolton this season.

I am not saying that a different manager would have had us at the top of the league in the same circumstances just that it is self evident that Lennon has got less out of the resources he had than most people probably would have.

1 win in 29 is pathetic no matter what the circumstances are.

Do you honestly believe that hardly anyone else could do any better than that?

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

i agree with Sluffy 100% (i did write the article after all  Very Happy). There are a lot of players in this team who have played in the Championship and some even the Premiership and they are all under performing.  Lets not forget that 1 win in 29 games goes back to last season as well not just this one.

I've said this before but Lennon is in a win win situation, if he leaves or gets the sack people will sympathise and say he got the wrong end of a shitty stick and it's not his fault, if he stays then people will say he's not a quitter. He isn't a quitter but it's like he's waiting for the sack so he can then come out with all the excuses to save his managerial reputation. He'll play the martyr card when he does leave i'll bet you that.

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

I've nothing against Lennon but we should start a fresh in league one probably.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Lennon is a long, long way from a perfect manager but what sacking Lennon WON'T do is:
* put "leaders on the pitch" as there's a transfer embargo and we can't buy any leaders even if we had the money which we don't
* turn Heskey and Madine into effective strikers
* create the foundations for building for the future

The best we could hope for by a change in management is a short-term confidence boost for the players and maybe a bit of tactical shuffling. 

Whether it would be advisable to do that now or wait until we know if we are going into administration or not is debatable - but I reckon we'd be better off waiting until we know what kind of manager we'll need and what they'll be working with. Building from scratch with kids and no budget is a different proposition from having sufficient funds to retain a few seniors so we can't even write the job spec until the finances are sorted out. And although it looks like our fate is sealed ATM we don't even know for sure what league we'll be playing in next year so we really should hang fire for a bit.

Boggersbelief

Boggersbelief
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

wanderlust wrote:Lennon is a long, long way from a perfect manager but what sacking Lennon WON'T do is:
* put "leaders on the pitch" as there's a transfer embargo and we can't buy any leaders even if we had the money which we don't
* turn Heskey and Madine into effective strikers
* create the foundations for building for the future

BUT, it will stop Heskey and Madine getting game time, it will freshen things up and spark new ideas and it will give opportunities for younger players that are scoring regularly to join the first team.

For some reason NL is sticking by fucking awful players because they're experienced...

Fat lot of good that's doing.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Boggersbelief wrote:
wanderlust wrote:Lennon is a long, long way from a perfect manager but what sacking Lennon WON'T do is:
* put "leaders on the pitch" as there's a transfer embargo and we can't buy any leaders even if we had the money which we don't
* turn Heskey and Madine into effective strikers
* create the foundations for building for the future

BUT, it will stop Heskey and Madine getting game time, it will freshen things up and spark new ideas and it will give opportunities for younger players that are scoring regularly to join the first team.

For some reason NL is sticking by fucking awful players because they're experienced...

Fat lot of good that's doing.
Not necessarily - but you would hope that a new manager would ring the changes and give the development squad first team experience in preparation for L1.

Guest


Guest

He's obviously going nowhere until either a deal is done or (more likely) we enter Administration in January because, let's face it, he should already be long gone by now given our appalling record.

We're just marking time until the HMRC hearing and by that point, it will be too late and we will probably be at least ten points adrift.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Breadman wrote:He's obviously going nowhere until either a deal is done or (more likely) we enter Administration in January because, let's face it, he should already be long gone by now given our appalling record.

We're just marking time until the HMRC hearing and by that point, it will be too late and we will probably be at least ten points adrift.
That's the point - so much uncertainty ATM we don't know what we need.

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