What do Brexiters expect?

whatsgoingon wrote:You're right about the fact that the problem is not dealing with the problem head on, as a nation we are one of the most racially tolerant. 

We were, I'm not so sure we can continue to say this unfortunately.

New Australian flag unveiled.

Martin Fry was way ahead of his time.

Here's Nige doing what he does best.

Talking utter shite to an automatically receptive audience.

Fox News.

She pretends that it's a serious interview at first (in true Fox style) with some "edgy" questions but then it all soon settles down to the usual Murdoch sanctioned, right wing bollocks with soft questions and manifold opportunities to espouse his single track, borderline racist shite.

He's loving this shite.

And he doesn't care that it's dangerous.

Thanks Leavers....Just don't moan when your foreign wife gets deported.

Or your cousin from France.

Or your Aunty from Poland.

That guy is a Legend, people are beginning to come around now, and like the leader.

In true form, Farage has f***ed up the country for the next 50 years and then resigned just as the hard work trying to salvage something from the wreckage is about to begin.

In fairness Lust, what hard work? UKIP (thank god) have no power at all so the likes of Nutall, Farage and Carswell talking as if they're going to have any say in the negotiations is nonsense, they won't have anything to do with them or the future direction of this country.

Bye Nigel, hope that's the last we see of you.

bwfc1874 wrote:In fairness Lust, what hard work? UKIP (thank god) have no power at all so the likes of Nutall, Farage and Carswell talking as if they're going to have any say in the negotiations is nonsense

Perhaps UKIP have finally realised that the UK a) can't survive independently and b) may break up anyway thanks to the referendum?

But UKIP do have 24 MEPs and whilst they wield very little direct power, there will be a focus on them during the negotiation process so they may have an important role in explaining away why the Leave campaign will deliver none of the promises they made and why we everything is going to be so much worse for everyone as a result of their nationalist vanity.

I guess Nigel knows what's coming.

My reasons for voting Leave and expectations of a Brexiteer.

Firstly I have for many years been a supporter of the EU and have often argued for it, the idea of nation states trading freely and by movement of labour, I will come back to that later, developing a greater understanding of our neighbours and reducing the need for conflict. How could anyone object to that.

The common market and the freedom to move to another EEC member state to work was acceptable and worked to the benefit of all its members, wasn't perfect but what is. Over time as the EEC enlarged and then morphed into the EU however the mission creep began and some elements of the European Project have not sat easily with the population of the UK and I think that the Euro was the turning point. When we didn't join the Eurozone, at the time I thought we should have, I think the UK's relationship with the EU changed and we should have left then, it would still have been messy but not as much as now, we have been a reluctant member since and it is almost akin to a bad marriage. The UK has negotiated opt outs for this and that which some other member states are resentful of and feel that despite the UK having special treatment we are never happy.

We didn't join the Euro and have stated that we never will so it is pointless debating if we would have made it stronger or not but it is undeniable that it is a failing currency. Ideologies are all well and good but the nations of Europe are economically and culturally diverse [wonderfully so imo] and the imposition of the single currency has been an economic disaster across Europe. Unemployment, especially for young people is unacceptably high across the continent, the Eurozone's growth has been sluggish for years and shows no sign of recovery, Italy's banking system is on the verge of collapse and the French workers are fighting the governments labour reforms after years of austerity and no wage rises. That is to say nothing of the EU's Greek rescue plan that has impoverished a nation for generations and a migrant crisis that is stoking the rise of populist right wing parties across the board, it isn't just the UK that has had enough of "More Europe". Why do you want to Leave you ask, why would you want to stay?


Expections

Trade Relations

It will be a difficult and fractious period until an agreement is reached with the EU that is acceptable to both the UK and Brussels but it will be done. Pragmatism will always prevail in the end and although it may be a bumpy ride there is too much benefit to us and the EU member states not reach a settlement. Our trade deficit with the EU is approx 24 billion pounds per quarter, thats a lot of wonga when your economy is up shit creek.

Once our deal with Europe is done and maybe before we are free to negotiate with non EU states regarding trade, surprisingly there are quite a lot of them and we still have close relations with the commonwealth nations and despite the dearth of trade negotiators, did we have none in Brussels? I think there is reason for optimism. We are a great trading nation and negotiating with one voice is 27 times easier than negotiating with 27 voices.

Immigration - I am 50 years old and have still to reach the average age of the population [55, I think] so it doesn't take a genius to work out that we need immigration for the economy to grow. I am not a "Little Englander" and am of the view the vast majority of migrants contribute positively, it is up to government to implement a social security system that doesn't encourage those that are here for a free ride. I expect immigration to remain at current rates unless we go in to prolonged recession.

NHS: It is almost a sacred cow in this country and unfortunately became the focus of outrageous propaganda by the Leave campaign. An extra £350 million a week - this sum doesn't exist our net contribution to the EU is more in the region of £160 million a week and not all of that, if any will be re allocated to the NHS. One of my frustrations with the EU is that it never sorts its problems out just muddles through, we need to have a serious debate about the NHS and weather it is still fit for purpose.

Security: Not in anyone's interest to stop co-operating and sharing information. No change

The City: London's status as Europe's largest financial centre may be threatened, depends on if we leave completely or become associate members with access to the single market. Uncertain

Economy: Will probably have a period of uncertainty until negotiations are concluded but I doubt that the doom mongers are correct, we have a diverse economy and it may become economical to manufacture here again rather than import goods depending on tariffs etc. Too early to say but we will have greater autonomy so if we succeed of fail it will be by our own efforts.


Overall I think leaving is the right thing to do. I don't think the EU will survive in the medium to the long term in any case, it will collapse under the weight of its own bureaucracy or rising social unrest. What might be left is a more democratic common market, which I would be only to pleased to vote to join

Good post that Nick.

great post and a good read Nick even from a remain voter like me

NickFazer wrote:My reasons for voting Leave and expectations of a Brexiteer.

Firstly I have for many years been a supporter of the EU and have often argued for it, the idea of nation states trading freely and by movement of labour, I will come back to that later, developing a greater understanding of our neighbours and reducing the need for conflict. How could anyone object to that.

The common market and the freedom to move to another EEC member state to work was acceptable and worked to the benefit of all its members, wasn't perfect but what is. Over time as the EEC enlarged and then morphed into the EU however the mission creep began and some elements of the European Project have not sat easily with the population of the UK and I think that the Euro was the turning point. When we didn't join the Eurozone, at the time I thought we should have, I think the UK's relationship with the EU changed and we should have left then, it would still have been messy but not as much as now, we have been a reluctant member since and it is almost akin to a bad marriage. The UK has negotiated opt outs for this and that which some other member states are resentful of and feel that despite the UK having special treatment we are never happy.

We didn't join the Euro and have stated that we never will so it is pointless debating if we would have made it stronger or not but it is undeniable that it is a failing currency. Ideologies are all well and good but the nations of Europe are economically and culturally diverse [wonderfully so imo] and the imposition of the single currency has been an economic disaster across Europe. Unemployment, especially for young people is unacceptably high across the continent, the Eurozone's growth has been sluggish for years and shows no sign of recovery, Italy's banking system is on the verge of collapse and the French workers are fighting the governments labour reforms after years of austerity and no wage rises. That is to say nothing of the EU's Greek rescue plan that has impoverished a nation for generations and a migrant crisis that is stoking the rise of populist right wing parties across the board, it isn't just the UK that has had enough of "More Europe". Why do you want to Leave you ask, why would you want to stay?


Expections

Trade Relations

It will be a difficult and fractious period until an agreement is reached with the EU that is acceptable to both the UK and Brussels but it will be done. Pragmatism will always prevail in the end and although it may be a bumpy ride there is too much benefit to us and the EU member states not reach a settlement. Our trade deficit with the EU is approx 24 billion pounds per quarter, thats a lot of wonga when your economy is up shit creek.

Once our deal with Europe is done and maybe before we are free to negotiate with non EU states regarding trade, surprisingly there are quite a lot of them and we still have close relations with the commonwealth nations and despite the dearth of trade negotiators, did we have none in Brussels? I think there is reason for optimism. We are a great trading nation and negotiating with one voice is 27 times easier than negotiating with 27 voices.

Immigration - I am 50 years old and have still to reach the average age of the population [55, I think] so it doesn't take a genius to work out that we need immigration for the economy to grow. I am not a "Little Englander" and am of the view the vast majority of migrants contribute positively, it is up to government to implement a social security system that doesn't encourage those that are here for a free ride. I expect immigration to remain at current rates unless we go in to prolonged recession.

NHS: It is almost a sacred cow in this country and unfortunately became the focus of outrageous propaganda by the Leave campaign. An extra £350 million a week - this sum doesn't exist our net contribution to the EU is more in the region of £160 million a week and not all of that, if any will be re allocated to the NHS. One of my frustrations with the EU is that it never sorts its problems out just muddles through, we need to have a serious debate about the NHS and weather it is still fit for purpose.

Security: Not in anyone's interest to stop co-operating and sharing information. No change

The City: London's status as Europe's largest financial centre may be threatened, depends on if we leave completely or become associate members with access to the single market. Uncertain

Economy: Will probably have a period of uncertainty until negotiations are concluded but I doubt that the doom mongers are correct, we have a diverse economy and it may become economical to manufacture here again rather than import goods depending on tariffs etc. Too early to say but we will have greater autonomy so if we succeed of fail it will be by our own efforts.


Overall I think leaving is the right thing to do. I don't think the EU will survive in the medium to the long term in any case, it will collapse under the weight of its own bureaucracy or rising social unrest. What might be left is a more democratic common market, which I would be only to pleased to vote to join

Very good points well made Nick.
I share many of the concerns you have, but arrive at different conclusions in terms of the causes and what we need to do to put it right.
For example, you say it is easier for one nation to "negotiate with one voice than 27" - but if we leave and want to trade in Europe, British companies are going to have to get 27 licences instead of just one and they are going to have to negotiate 27 separate trade deals - so leaving Europe involves far more paperwork, legislation, cost, bureaucracy and workload for British exporters and their British workers - not less.

And when I think of European legislation affecting us all I think of the Working Time Directive, Health and Safety, the Minimum Wage, proper labelling of food and drink, animal welfare rights - all good things unless you want a return to feudal England, slavery and the chaos of the three day week imposed by the Tories the year we joined the EU. I certainly don't although I suspect we're heading back to those bad old days of powercuts, strikes, rotting waste on the streets and poverty.

In both cases, what you see as a reason for leaving, I see as a reason for staying.

The EU has done some good things and as I said I am an ex supporter, what I would really like like to see is its nation building agenda rolled back but I can't see that happening unless they are forced in to it, they are either completely out of touch or supremely arrogant I can't make my mind up. If we leave, still not convinced that we will, we can still be a prosperous nation with a voice in the world, we may be a little worse off or a little better off but we will survive.

Can I ask the Remainers, if we were not members would you be in favour of joining?

And thanks for the nice comments

to answer your question Nick, no i wouldn't have voted for us to join now if we weren't members. 

If the EU had stayed as more of a common trade agreement as it was when we joined then i would have been happy to join, the whole expansion of the EU from the common market to the behemoth it is now is probably what has antagonised people and will ultimately lead to it being scaled back or even dismantled at some point in the future

NickFazer wrote:The EU has done some good things and as I said I am an ex supporter, what I would really like like to see is its nation building agenda rolled back but I can't see that happening unless they are forced in to it, they are either completely out of touch or supremely arrogant I can't make my mind up. If we leave, still not convinced that we will, we can still be a prosperous nation with a voice in the world, we may be a little worse off or a little better off but we will survive.

Can I ask the Remainers, if we were not members would you be in favour of joining?

And thanks for the nice comments

Excellent original post Nick and I have to admit it is difficult to answer your question.

If we were where we are now I am not sure I would vote to join but many aspects of where we are now are due to us being members of the EU. To take two examples: would successive Tory governments really have provided the same level of subsidy to the regions that the EU has? and would employees rights be as good as they are now?

Probably on balance I would vote to join but it would be a close decision.

I think joining now would be our best chance of holding back the ever-rising tide of immigration that is an inevitability at current rates of population growth. I'm thinking Malthusian Doom here. The key thing for me is the agreement we already have that ensures that asylum seekers are entitled to claim asylum at the point of entry - and enforcing the current legislation rather than abandoning the first line of defence seems eminently sensible. And if the British Government did what they should have done years ago i.e. limiting benefits and access to health services to people and their dependents who have paid in for at least 10 years we could be sure that the only immigrants are those coming here to work and contribute.

And obviously we'd all be a lot better off financially in the long run - and in my case, the short term as I can't sell my house and my pension is f****d. I may have to go back to work FFS.

NickFazer wrote:My reasons for voting Leave and expectations of a Brexiteer.

Firstly I have for many years been a supporter of the EU and have often argued for it, the idea of nation states trading freely and by movement of labour, I will come back to that later, developing a greater understanding of our neighbours and reducing the need for conflict. How could anyone object to that.

The common market and the freedom to move to another EEC member state to work was acceptable and worked to the benefit of all its members, wasn't perfect but what is. Over time as the EEC enlarged and then morphed into the EU however the mission creep began and some elements of the European Project have not sat easily with the population of the UK and I think that the Euro was the turning point. When we didn't join the Eurozone, at the time I thought we should have, I think the UK's relationship with the EU changed and we should have left then, it would still have been messy but not as much as now, we have been a reluctant member since and it is almost akin to a bad marriage. The UK has negotiated opt outs for this and that which some other member states are resentful of and feel that despite the UK having special treatment we are never happy.

We didn't join the Euro and have stated that we never will so it is pointless debating if we would have made it stronger or not but it is undeniable that it is a failing currency. Ideologies are all well and good but the nations of Europe are economically and culturally diverse [wonderfully so imo] and the imposition of the single currency has been an economic disaster across Europe. Unemployment, especially for young people is unacceptably high across the continent, the Eurozone's growth has been sluggish for years and shows no sign of recovery, Italy's banking system is on the verge of collapse and the French workers are fighting the governments labour reforms after years of austerity and no wage rises. That is to say nothing of the EU's Greek rescue plan that has impoverished a nation for generations and a migrant crisis that is stoking the rise of populist right wing parties across the board, it isn't just the UK that has had enough of "More Europe". Why do you want to Leave you ask, why would you want to stay?


Expections

Trade Relations

It will be a difficult and fractious period until an agreement is reached with the EU that is acceptable to both the UK and Brussels but it will be done. Pragmatism will always prevail in the end and although it may be a bumpy ride there is too much benefit to us and the EU member states not reach a settlement. Our trade deficit with the EU is approx 24 billion pounds per quarter, thats a lot of wonga when your economy is up shit creek.

Once our deal with Europe is done and maybe before we are free to negotiate with non EU states regarding trade, surprisingly there are quite a lot of them and we still have close relations with the commonwealth nations and despite the dearth of trade negotiators, did we have none in Brussels? I think there is reason for optimism. We are a great trading nation and negotiating with one voice is 27 times easier than negotiating with 27 voices.

Immigration - I am 50 years old and have still to reach the average age of the population [55, I think] so it doesn't take a genius to work out that we need immigration for the economy to grow. I am not a "Little Englander" and am of the view the vast majority of migrants contribute positively, it is up to government to implement a social security system that doesn't encourage those that are here for a free ride. I expect immigration to remain at current rates unless we go in to prolonged recession.

NHS: It is almost a sacred cow in this country and unfortunately became the focus of outrageous propaganda by the Leave campaign. An extra £350 million a week - this sum doesn't exist our net contribution to the EU is more in the region of £160 million a week and not all of that, if any will be re allocated to the NHS. One of my frustrations with the EU is that it never sorts its problems out just muddles through, we need to have a serious debate about the NHS and weather it is still fit for purpose.

Security: Not in anyone's interest to stop co-operating and sharing information. No change

The City: London's status as Europe's largest financial centre may be threatened, depends on if we leave completely or become associate members with access to the single market. Uncertain

Economy: Will probably have a period of uncertainty until negotiations are concluded but I doubt that the doom mongers are correct, we have a diverse economy and it may become economical to manufacture here again rather than import goods depending on tariffs etc. Too early to say but we will have greater autonomy so if we succeed of fail it will be by our own efforts.


Overall I think leaving is the right thing to do. I don't think the EU will survive in the medium to the long term in any case, it will collapse under the weight of its own bureaucracy or rising social unrest. What might be left is a more democratic common market, which I would be only to pleased to vote to join

Good post..well presented. 

Great post Nick!

Another bad day for Britain so far:

* The Pound has dropped almost 1% in value
* FTSE is down so investments like pensions are again affected and some people's pensions are at risk
* Inflation (Prices) up by half a percent

I was hoping that the stabilising effect of appointing a new PM and Cabinet would see our post-referendum decline bottom out, but it looks like we still have a way to go and the market losses haven't even hit the high street yet - although it will probably be winter before people start to realise how much poorer they are.

Still no word on the trade deal negotiations though so presumably it's not going well for Britain as they would be crowing from the rooftops if we'd got anywhere near what the Brexit leaders promised. May will be shitting herself. Still we live in hope.

I met a proper Brexit goon last week in Mallorca.

He seemed normal at first when him and his wife asked if we minded them joining us on some comfy seats near the pool bar at our hotel as we sipped our drinks and watched the sun slowly disappear behind the mountains.

But it didn't take long for him to start foisting his opinions on us about how shit foreigners generally are and how "disgusting" it was that the hotel was catering for Germans and Russians.

"Too much garlicky sausage and not enough Shepherd's Pie on the menu" was the consensus.

When I asked him if they'd tried the excellent a la carte Tapas restaurant he sneered at me and his wizened old hag of a wife was almost physically sick.

"That Spanish rubbish...?" he asked, "Full of olive oil and spices. Horrible."

I tried to switch off and ignore his bollocks for a further 10 minutes until he brought up the referendum result with a big grin.

He'd been moaning 2 minutes previously about how the cost of hiring a car was suddenly a lot higher than in previous years but seemed happy enough that we were now leaving the EU.

The man was a typical Little Englander and I was genuinely embarrassed to be associated with him.

So I suggested that if Europe was so awful, he'd perhaps be happier holidaying in Clacton and called him a stupid old prick before walking off.

And then sat with some very nice Europeans for the rest of the evening, drinking Rioja, eating tapas and chatting pleasantly.

We don't deserve to be in Europe- we're not sophisticated enough and we still think we're better than everybody else despite all the evidence to the contrary.