Economy watch

Just to clarify a point I made, I said "Brexit just aggravates the situation". Brexit has not caused the problem and Tory policy on the NHS has not changed. However because the value of the pound has sunk since Brexit every thing we buy from abroad like military equipment costs a lot more and this means that there is less money available to fund the NHS. So thanks again Brexit fans.

They don't get irony.

Dial it down if you want to get the message across.

"You have fucked us over because you are daft and fell for it" is about the right level.

Bread2.0 wrote:They don't get irony.

Dial it down if you want to get the message across.

"You have fucked us over because you are daft and fell for it you bunch of crayon eating fuckwits" is about the right level.

I added the extra bit you were thinking but diplomatically opted to omit.

Bwfc1958 wrote:

Bread2.0 wrote:They don't get irony.

Dial it down if you want to get the message across.

"You have fucked us over because you are daft and fell for it you bunch of crayon eating fuckwits" is about the right level.

I added the extra bit you were thinking but diplomatically opted to omit.

Xmiles, I apologies I did misunderstand your original point regarding the situation being aggravated by Brexit, still don't think that over the medium to long term that will be the case but that remains to be seen.

On the Brexit front it seems that Theresa May will be pressing ahead and that now the emotions have died down there is more pragmatic and conciliatory talk coming from the EU, the Germans and the Belgians in particular. It seems to be a national trait that we underestimate the capabilities of this nation and always take the pessimistic view, the assumption is that we have a weak negotiating position and the EU will want to "punish" the UK for leaving, this isn't necessarily the case, for a number of EU members we are their largest customers and given the state of their own economies they will be cutting off their noses to spite their face. There is also an assumption that trade with the Eurozone will suffer and become more difficult but the US, China, India, in fact a lot of the rest of the world trades with the EU and the Eurozone amicably.

From the EU perspective they have lost a contributor to the budget but on the other hand they are also rid of its most reluctant member so it may work out best for all concerned. The UK can manage it's own affairs and continue to have a close relationship, through a Free Trade agreement, outside the EU and the single market and the EU can continue with their closer union project.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/08/27/parliament-must-listen-to-the-people-on-brexit/

Opinions from (admittedly pro Brexit Telegraph)

It's a shame that writer of the Telegraph article quoted above does not seem to know the difference between "alternate" and "alternative"!  (See very first sentence)

Other than that, he/she makes some valid points that should put into perspective the more hysterical reactions of the Remainers, many of whom have grossly insulted 17+ million Britons.

It seemed to me from the start that there were so many conflicting issues to be weighed up that voting with any certainty about what was best for the country, became impossible, even for the "experts".

So, when the democratic result was announced, I could not see how anyone could be so convinced of the rightness of their choice, that they felt it was ok to become abusive to those who took the opposing option. The arguments were so poorly presented that we were bound to be simply guessing what might work best for us.

The reason I became abusive towards a large section of the Leave voters is quite simple and it had nothing to do with sour grapes on my part:

It was an ill-informed vote based on fear and prejudice.

I don't live in a Westminster-centric, middle class, "politically enlightened" bubble - I live (and work) in the real world and time and time again, I heard with my own ears, pro-Leave advocates banging on about how much they "hate muslims" and "fuckin' Poles" and how much better we would be "out of Europe".

These people aren't intelligent / sophisticated enough to make rational, informed decisions and yet, their vote carried just as much weight as someone who had spent the build up to the day of the vote examining all the evidence and weighing up the potential consequences of voting one way or the other.

So am I bitter?

Yes, I am.

Because 6 months ago, I had a plan for my retirement.

But now, thanks to a bunch of idiots who somehow equated our leaving the EU with striking a blow against ISIS because they lack the fundamental ability to think rationally, I am no longer sure if I'll be able to put it into action.

So fuck 'em.

I am no fan of the Tory party or its voters but I can respect the fact that they at least follow a valid ideology.

Judging from my own personal experience of Leave voters, I can't say the same for them and as a result, I don't respect their decision or them.

There may be millions of well-educated Leave voters out there who earnestly believed that they were doing the right thing - My problem is with the (doubtless) millions of others who voted Leave because they are petty-minded xenophobes, who aren't bright enough to understand what the EU actually is or does.

Breadman if you feel that way then you should reserve your anger for those responsible, it was the educated elite that proposed the referendum and a democratically elected body in Parliament that passed the legislation to hold a referendum and set the rules to be applied and the question to be answered. To my knowledge the vote was carried out fairly and a democratic conclusion has been reached, the deplorable campaigning from both sides is a separate issue as both sides resorted to lowest common denominator tactics.

There are doubtless some narrow minded people that were eligible to vote but that is the price of democracy, the fact of the matter is that Remain failed to make a positive case for staying in, suggesting that a significant number of Leave voters are racist, xenophobic or too ignorant to vote is unjustified.

The Telegraph frequently argue that it is too early to assess the impact of Brexit as we haven't actually left the EU yet and no trade deals have been completed or announced, but when it suits them they claim that we have "avoided an economic apocalypse" - which incidentally nobody suggested would happen.

I take their self-contradictory rhetoric as typical of the rag.

One thing I do agree with is that the "Government should listen to the people" as the majority clearly want to stay in the EU now that the the lies of the Leave campaign have been exposed. 
They should also listen to the young people on whom Brexit will have the biggest impact - young people who were included in the Scottish referendum but excluded from the EU referendum - but they won't because they know that >75% of 16 and 17 year olds want to remain european - ample to deliver an overall majority.

I suppose the current Government would have jobs if we weren't prepared to accept the results of a rigged referendum so they'll just press on. 

So let's put Brexit behind us and focus on what's happening right now e.g. the failing NHS, the contracting economy, the decline of our international credit rating, the struggling pound and the other issues that are emerging on a daily basis that won't have an immediate impact on most people for a year or two yet.

Nick,

I don't think it is.

As I've already said, I can only base my assessment of "the average working class Leave voter" on my own practical experience.

And without exception, the ones I came across were poorly educated racists.

Who voted to leave because the propaganda espoused by Farage, Gove et al tapped into their inherent xenophobia and they lapped it up, believing that once we were "out of Europe", all our problems would miraculously be solved.

"I can't wait 'til we're out and we can send all them fucking Poles home!" is a direct quote from my brother in law.

Now that's just unsubstantiated, anecdotal evidence and I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it.

But it happened and it has helped to form my opinion of the average working class Leave voter.

Because he's far from the only one I met who shared that sentiment.

Yes, ultimately, I blame Cameron for this mess because he caused it by stupidly gambling on holding the damn thing in the first place just to send a message to his own party at Westminster but I reserve the right to hold those who actually put their crosses in the Leave box because they hate / fear / are jealous of foreigners equally culpable.

Bread2.0 wrote:Nick,

I don't think it is.

As I've already said, I can only base my assessment of "the average working class Leave voter" on my own practical experience.

And without exception, the ones I came across were poorly educated racists.

Who voted to leave because the propaganda espoused by Farage, Gove et al tapped into their inherent xenophobia and they lapped it up, believing that once we were "out of Europe", all our problems would miraculously be solved.

"I can't wait 'til we're out and we can send all them fucking Poles home!" is a direct quote from my brother in law.

Now that's just unsubstantiated, anecdotal evidence and I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it.

But it happened and it has helped to form my opinion of the average working class Leave voter.

Because he's far from the only one I met who shared that sentiment.

Yes, ultimately, I blame Cameron for this mess because he caused it by stupidly gambling on holding the damn thing in the first place just to send a message to his own party at Westminster but I reserve the right to hold those who actually put their crosses in the Leave box because they hate / fear / are jealous of foreigners equally culpable.

It doesn't matter if they are racist or not Bread - they are entitled to a vote and a third of the electorate voted out, a third voted remain and a third abstained. 
The outright racist leave voters that I know feel as ripped off by the rigged election as the remain voters do because they actually thought they were voting for an end to immigration apparently. In fact some of them are up in arms and want to kill Farage and Boris for "lying" to them.
Of course it's immoral and annoying that the referendum was rigged and those most affected were excluded from the vote but it's history now whether anyone likes it or not.

Just because some people are too stupid to understand basic English let alone issues like the £350m a week lie doesn't mean the referendum was rigged. We should never have had a referendum (and we only did because Cameron thought he would win it) but it was fairly worded and held using the current electoral register.

Wow! Please could you clarify one or two of your assertions, Wander?

 In what way was the referendum rigged by the government? I thought the government's line under DC was that they wanted to remain, in which case it wasn't very well rigged, was it?

How can you speak for the electorate and their reasons/choices? Surely you don't know enough Leavers to be able to draw sweeping conclusions about 17 + million people across the country. I know a lot of very well educated, civilised folk who voted Leave, but I wouldn't claim anything so sweeping.

Your assertion that the result was equally divided into thirds isn't quite true, is it?

I'm certain that Osborne, supported by his cronies, claimed there would be an economic apocalypse

How are you sure about the numbers of youngsters who would have voted to remain? Surely, if the govt was so set on remaining and knew that youngsters would have tipped the balance as you suggest, DC would have gone out of his way to allow them to vote. Don't forget how wrong all the polls were in every respect in the last two referendums.  

The clearest sign of the nation's voting intentions was via the Have Your Say sections of all the political articles published on the BBC website:- public opinion was massively in favour of Leave.... almost always in excess of 70% of the total comments in each case. Would a re-run produce a different outcome?

Something I don't understand with the three most vocal Remain posters on here is that one says that all the Leave voters are thick racists, and lack experience or sense, whilst another advocates the country would have been saved by 16 and 17 year olds, no doubt using all their experience and knowledge of life living in the Common Market, whilst the third is still stuck on the £350M bus !
Surely the focus has changed now, whether we like it or not, and lambasting people for their personal views, and let's be honest everyone came to their decision based on what they thought were legitimate reasons, is starting to ring a bit hollow now.

I voted out for judicial and security reasons, and the thought that the vast majority of the remain voters were being selfish and wanting to retain the status quo merely because they considered themselves ,comfortable, did cross my mind, as well as those big companies who had been ably supported by government to not only earn the country the label of Rip off Britain, given almost free licence to manipulate the markets not only to us but to the generations to come. Change wasn't only due, it was necessary.

gloswhite wrote:Something I don't understand with the three most vocal Remain posters on here is that one says that all the Leave voters are thick racists, and lack experience or sense, whilst another advocates the country would have been saved by 16 and 17 year olds, no doubt using all their experience and knowledge of life living in the Common Market, whilst the third is still stuck on the £350M bus !
Surely the focus has changed now, whether we like it or not, and lambasting people for their personal views, and let's be honest everyone came to their decision based on what they thought were legitimate reasons, is starting to ring a bit hollow now.

I voted out for judicial and security reasons, and the thought that the vast majority of the remain voters were being selfish and wanting to retain the status quo merely because they considered themselves ,comfortable, did cross my mind, as well as those big companies who had been ably supported by government to not only earn the country the label of Rip off Britain, given almost free licence to manipulate the markets not only to us but to the generations to come. Change wasn't only due, it was necessary.

Good post but don't let the facts get in the way of a good its all about me rant by the remainers

gloswhite wrote:
Surely the focus has changed now, whether we like it or not ...

I voted out for judicial and security reasons, and the thought that the vast majority of the remain voters were being selfish and wanting to retain the status quo merely because they considered themselves ,comfortable, did cross my mind, as well as those big companies who had been ably supported by government to not only earn the country the label of Rip off Britain, given almost free licence to manipulate the markets not only to us but to the generations to come. Change wasn't only due, it was necessary.

So just forget everything that has been said even though it is a blatant lie.

As for "those big companies who had been ably supported by government to not only earn the country the label of Rip off Britain, given almost free licence to manipulate the markets not only to us but to the generations to come" how on earth do you think that isn't going to get worse now that we are leaving the EU? The Tories have zero interest in restricting these companies whereas the EU was at least trying to do something to in areas like tax avoidance.

gloswhite wrote:Something I don't understand with the three most vocal Remain posters on here is that one says that all the Leave voters are thick racists,

That'd be me then, Glos.

My bit (as I read it) is about me thinking that stupid people fell for a big lie and voted accordingly.

And that's why I'm angry.

Thinking about it, yeah....spot on.

Apart from the fact that I never said that all the Leave voters were all guilty of doing that.

Just enough to hold sway and carry the day.

The terminally thick (yes, the "thick" - the sort of people who prefer watching Jeremy Kyle to The News and who think that X-Factor isn't rigged and vote accordingly via their iPhones) swung it.

I fully agree that the change you refer to is necessary because our current political system is obviously self-serving and borderline corrupt, but what's just happened doesn't feel like the right way to achieve positive change to me.

It all smacks of being a bit "lowest common denominator" and the fact that Farage appeared on ITV the morning after the result having to squirm and grovel about the £350 million NHS lie just proves that their entire campaign was a cobbled together dog and pony show.

But people fell for it and this is serious shit.

And yes, I'm being selfish about this.

Folk don't vote in General Elections for the common good - They vote for what they hope will benefit them personally.

So I'm making no apologies for doing just that.

And I'm still pissed off that just enough thick as fuck, "I didn't like school, me, 'cos it was too hard to learn stuff", racist, xenophobic, gloating, "let's send the fuckers home", self-entitled feeling pricks voted that way.

Because these cunts have potentially affected my future.

I'm 46 and I've worked hard to put me and my family in a position to be able to choose how we spend the next 30 years (in relative comfort).

But that may be jeopardised because a fair few people who I wouldn't trust to bath my dog, let alone vote on my future decided that because they don't like Muslims, they were going to vote to leave the EU.

Yes, Glos....it came down to shit like that.

EU membership = More Muslims in England.

It's as simple and ill-informed as that.

And that fucks me off.

We're supposed to be an enlightened society but it turns out we're not.

And the same shit's currently happening in the US with all that Trump bollocks and I'm genuinely concerned by it.

I like you Glos and this isn't a rant aimed at you, mate, it's a general thing.

Peace.

[quote="xmiles"]

gloswhite wrote:
The Tories have zero interest in restricting these companies whereas the EU was at least trying to do something to in areas like tax avoidance.  

It should be of interest to the government of the day whoever it is that companies pay there dues and if they don't it should be the duty of the opposition to hold them to account. Unfortunately multi-national business sees it as their duty to pay as little as they can get away with and they are much better at the game currently than government at national or international level.

Yes it should be of interest to all governments to hold companies to account but the reality is that Tory governments do not hold them to account. Just look at the complete failure to tackle tax avoidance and the increasing gap between the very rich and everybody else. The reason is obvious - just look at where the Tories get their money from and who the majority of senior Tories are.

The EU represented the best hope of at least partially protecting workers' rights, safeguarding the environment and tackling multi-national corporations. None of these are anywhere on the agenda of the current government. A much higher priority will be dismantling the NHS and selling it off to multi-national corporations and their business friends.