Economy watch

High levels of taxation and interference in business practice is entirely at odds with the liberal, Conservative ideology. Their argument is that these multi nationals are massive job creators and therefore deserving of these 'sweetheart deals' the likes of which we saw Osborbe give to Google.

bwfc1874 wrote:Their argument is that these multi nationals are massive job creators and therefore deserving of these 'sweetheart deals' the likes of which we saw Osborbe give to Google.

Which is about as believable as the so called trickle down effect and the tooth fairy.

Exactly.

Guys, can't answer your comment just now as in Mallorca and iPad is playing up if I type too much

Breaders, understand your frustration, but this might even improve your pot, in the long term.
Who says you're going to be allowed to retire, or even be given a state pension.

Enjoy your holiday Glos.

I look forward to continuing this discussion when you get back.

Xmiles, I agree with much of your view, but the EU is run by people who are living higher off the hog than our guys. Even they are saying that their organisation is going to ratshit. The difference for them is they take money from governments, so can pontificate more. The managing of the workforce, with a tweak from them, is left to governments, who really have the final say. (This is my 4th attempt at this and it still isn't right). We are coming into a changing of politics, and Ii for one am hoping it will be for the better.

It's your optimism that things will get better that I don't understand Glos.

All the hard evidence shows the exact opposite. I've already given some examples contrasting the approach of the Tory government and the EU.

And then there is the sheer unknown of how we are going to extract ourselves from the EU. It is a fantasy to think that we can have free access to the single market without free movement of labour which is what Norway has.

Just as those that would opt leave are bewildered that there is still belief in an increasingly dysfunctional EU delivering greater benefits for the citizens of Europe. There is an unknown as to what kind of future the UK can deliver outside of the EU but a future inside it is no more certain, it's in existential crisis facing enormous pressures internally and externally. In some respects the UK leaving should make their ideal of full political and fiscal union easier to achieve but that looks to be further away than ever now as the populations of Europe increasingly see the EU as part of the problem and not the solution.

Although I support leaving and I think we should leave completely, I hope that somehow the EU finds the will to reform itself into an entity that benefits all it's citizens, especially the young whom it has failed horribly in recent years but I just don't see it happening, I see it muddling through one crisis to another until it eventually fails.

I found the following extract from a recent newspaper article quite clear-sighted:


 If remain had won, we would already have returned to pretending that everything was carrying on just fine. Those people who have been forgotten would have stayed forgotten; those communities that have been abandoned would have stayed invisible to all but those who live in them. To insist that they will now suffer most ignores the fact that unless something had changed, they were going to suffer anyway. Those on the remain side who felt they didn’t recognise their own country when they woke up that Friday morning must spare a thought for the pensioner in Redcar or Wolverhampton who has been waking up every morning for the last 30 years, watching factories close and businesses move while the council cuts back services and foreigners arrive, wondering where their world has gone to.


Leaving the EU does not diminish the power of the multinationals that moved manufacturing jobs overseas, or the financiers whose recklessness led to the closure of libraries and the shrinking of disability benefits. We have not opted out of global capitalism. Something will now be done about the free movement of labour – but capital will still have the run of the place.




What is required now is some broader reimagining of Britain that pays more attention to work, fairness, community and equality, than to flag, nation, anthem and culture. For the last 15 years, governments and the press have stoked fears about whether British culture could withstand the integration of Muslims – of whom 70% voted for remain – when they should have been worried about how to integrate the white working class into the British economy.
Brexit didn’t create these problems. It exposed them. The decision as to whether we live in or out of the EU has been made. The choice before us now is whether we are finally ready to confront the issues that we have blissfully denied and engage with the communities we have carelessly ignored.

Hard to disagree with any of that okocha.

I agree with Bread

I have come across many voters who voted to leave but their reasons are just not rational and cannot happen.

They voted to leave to stop Muslims for entering our country and increasing the numbers for ISIS! (even though the majority would need visas to get here as they come from outside the EU and actually come from fellow Commonwealth countries!!!)

They voted to get rid of all other EU citizens who live, and work, here even straight after the result they were shocked that they were not being forced to leave straight away! (the typical xenophobe attitude to people who actually want to make a better life here and actually help to create jobs here and contribute to the economy)

They voted so their wives can have a high powered vacuum cleaner - yet forgetting that all electrical companies have to comply to the EU laws which means less power being used but getting all scientist to have the same performance as now - and Dyson does that very well - so in or out of the EU these companies will not make UK only products as it wouldn't be cost effective!

Very few people I have come across have had a rational reason for wanting to leave the EU!

The above reasoning are actually all true and that has come from many of the Leavers I have come across!!!!

Okocha, the author of that article needs to specify how exactly the shutting of businesses and factories in poorer areas is the fault of the EU.

That's the integral difference for me, most on here agree with the issues this country faces but there's a divide over what's caused them. For me successive governments since Thatcher have chosen to dismantle manufacturing in this country in favour of financial services, I'm yet to be told how the Eu are responsible for that.

Could you post the original link in fact please Okocha?

Excellent piece by Gary Younge,from June 30th is worthy of another read.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/brexit-disaster-decades-in-the-making

BWFC 1874: Bonce has provided the link above. Brilliant, long article.....balanced and realistic, with a terrific, knowledgeable grasp of many relevant issues. Enjoy!

"The choice before us now is whether we are finally ready to confront the issues that we have blissfully denied and engage with the communities we have carelessly ignored."

Unfortunately with a Tory government and the prospect of no effective opposition thanks to Corbyn what are the chances of that happening? Once the EU subsidies to the regions cease it will only get worse.

Here's how the EU deal with multi-national corporations. Contrast that with the sweetheart deals they get in this country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37216176

okocha wrote:Wow! Please could you clarify one or two of your assertions, Wander?

Would a re-run produce a different outcome?

Sure. Here is the Financial Times post Brexit data demographic analysis which I've selected for it's lack of bias and which clearly shows that Leave voters...

• were on average less educated than Remain voters
  
• were less likely to hold a passport or have travelled abroad
  
• were less likely to be young
  
• were more likely to come from low income areas
  

Ironically, the Leave vote was strongest in the areas most economically dependent on the EU.
The total population is 65 million of which 11 million are children under 14. Around 2 million are 14 to 16 and the rest are old enough to work and die in a war for us.
However, unlike the Scottish referendum they were not allowed to vote. Of those more than 75% would have voted Remain and that would have swung the vote.

Even if we accept the unexplained exclusion of the 16 to 18 year olds that leaves approximately 52 million British adults of whom 17.2 million voted to Leave - just a third of adults but nearer a quarter of the total population - hardly overwhelming.

I understand nobody likes to be duped and lied to. It's natural for people who have been conned to play down the impact or even deny it so I totally understand why Leave voters are defensive and want to gloss over what happened.

Unfortunately it has happened and it seems that the British people are happy to live with a decision taken on the basis of false information - unusual because there would be an  outcry in any other area of political life - so we have to get on with it and accept what comes - which so far is pretty disastrous and there's a helluva long way to go yet.

Excellent post WL!

You've answered one or two, but not all, of my questions, Wander- for example, how was the referendum "rigged"?

If I was play devil's advocate in response to the FT, I'd say "less likely" is speculative and no more conclusive than the opinion polls beforehand which were proved wildly wrong. HYS on BBC was far more accurate about the outcome.

You don't deal with the lies and scare-mongering of Remain's educated establishment figures.

The Spectator, on the other hand, does:

"It has been more than a month since the UK voted to leave the European Union — but something is missing. Where is the economic collapse? What of EUpocalypse Now? Where is the Brexageddon that we were promised? 


To the shock of many — not least business titans who bankrolled the Remain campaign — the instant collapse doesn’t seem to be happening. The UK economy is, for now at least, taking Brexit in its stride.


The oft-predicted job losses? During the three weeks from 23 June, job listings were up 150,000 compared to the same period last year according to Reed Group, a recruitment consultant. ‘That’s an 8 per cent rise,’ says James Reed, its chairman. ‘The vote hasn’t affected things — people are still hiring.’


How about all those international banks quitting the City of London? Last week the US banking thoroughbred Wells Fargo forked out £300 million for a new European headquarters — in London. Since Brexit, the likes of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan have hailed the City as ‘one of the most attractive places in the world to do business’, citing its ‘stable legal system’ and ‘deep liquid capital markets unmatched anywhere in Europe’.


But surely leaving the EU is so rash it’ll spark financial collapse? While UK stocks took a hit straight after the referendum, the FTSE 100 share index is now 6 per cent higher than before we voted. Even the FTSE 250, comprised of smaller, more UK-centric firms, has almost completed its recovery."




Obviously, some time has elapsed since the Spectator article but the main thrust of the writer's contention remains true; the economic meltdown predicted by Osborne and the like has not materialised. Even "experts" find it hard to predict what will happen from here.


One of the many reasons for the majority to vote Leave has been underlined today with the illegal interference of the EU into Irish economic affairs, infuriating the Irish Finance Minister. Losing control of the ability to determine our own affairs and laws was a contributing factor in the decision to leave.