Economy watch

Incidentally, following the EU's investigation of Apple and Ireland's Tax services - I am looking forward to the EU finally releasing its financial statements for the past 15 years...

Hang on then.....just so we're clear:

The EU holding big businesses such as Apple accountable for settling their tax liabilities in full and not exploiting loopholes in the system which allow them to avoid paying what they really owe is somehow a "bad thing" now, is it?

Righto.....!

In the interest of fairness okocha it would be good to see Brexit fans give a straightforward answer to some of the questions they have been repeatedly asked but never answered on this forum. To take just three:

1. how is voting the way the owners of the Times, Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Boris and Farage want voting against the establishment?

2. how likely is it that voting the way they want you to is going to be good for most people in this country?

3. do you honestly believe that a UK outside the EU is going to be more likely to stand up to big business, protect workers' rights and look after the environment?

I await replies with interest but I am not holding my breath as most Brexit fans seem to want to avoid these issues whilst studiously avoiding remembering all the big lies in the Brexit campaign (£350m a week for the NHS, Turkey about to join the EU, leaving the EU means we can stop all immigration, etc).

okocha wrote:You've answered one or two, but not all, of my questions, Wander- for example, how was the referendum "rigged"?

If I was play devil's advocate in response to the FT, I'd say "less likely" is speculative and no more conclusive than the opinion polls beforehand which were proved wildly wrong. HYS on BBC was far more accurate about the outcome.

You don't deal with the lies and scare-mongering of Remain's educated establishment figures.

The Spectator, on the other hand, does:

The UK economy is, for now at least, taking Brexit in its stride.

I'm afraid that big letters doesn't make this any less a load of tosh.
We are still in the EU if you hadn't noticed!

Bread2.0 wrote:Hang on then.....just so we're clear:

The EU holding big businesses such as Apple accountable for settling their tax liabilities in full and not exploiting loopholes in the system which allow them to avoid paying what they really owe is somehow a "bad thing" now, is it?

Righto.....!

Well, the Irish Finance Minister clearly thinks so, Bread: ""I disagree profoundly with the Commission," said Ireland's finance minister, Michael Noonan, in a statement.
"The decision leaves me with no choice but to seek cabinet approval to appeal. This is necessary to defend the integrity of our tax system; to provide tax certainty to business; and to challenge the encroachment of EU state aid rules into the sovereign member state competence of taxation."

Of course the Irish finance minister agrees with it they gave Apple the deal in the first place so they could reap the benefits whilst the rest of the EU suffered as a result. 

All of the profits from Apple Stores all over Europe go directly to their head sales office in Dublin where they paid 50 Euros tax on every Million Euro profit, then those profits were sent back to the US for Apple's R&D development.

Apple have used the EU's tax rules to fiddle a situation where they cheat every member state out of the tax earned in their country to the one location they agree a sweetheart deal before sending the money back!

They've royally taken the piss and the Tory government should take notes from the EU on how to deal with tax avoidance.

xmiles wrote:In the interest of fairness okocha it would be good to see Brexit fans give a straightforward answer to some of the questions they have been repeatedly asked but never answered on this forum. To take just three:

1. how is voting the way the owners of the Times, Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Boris and Farage want voting against the establishment?

2. how likely is it that voting the way they want you to is going to be good for most people in this country?

3. do you honestly believe that a UK outside the EU is going to be more likely to stand up to big business, protect workers' rights and look after the environment?  

I await replies with interest but I am not holding my breath as most Brexit fans seem to want to avoid these issues whilst studiously avoiding remembering all the big lies in the Brexit campaign (£350m a week for the NHS, Turkey about to join the EU, leaving the EU means we can stop all immigration, etc).

I'm just playing Devil's advocate, xmiles. I didn't vote Brexit, remember! 

But you know that the establishment here means Cameron, Osborne and the rest of the Tories who backed the PM. There were dodgy characters on both sides, who lied, exaggerated, created spin etc.

As for points 2 and 3, it remains to be see how well the government manages the situation. 

This has always been my point: i.e. that it is impossible to foresee exactly how things will turn out because there too many imponderables. Neither wise men nor idiots, of whom there are many on both sides, can be sure they have voted the right way.

DC is to blame for the uncertainty, by holding a referendum simply to satisfy the grumbling back-benchers, and then running away once the vote did not go his way, having misjudged the electorate.

(Meanwhile, his cronyism continues unabated.)

I remember that you have said the exact same thing about Cameron's role in the whole affair, xmiles

okocha wrote:

xmiles wrote:In the interest of fairness okocha it would be good to see Brexit fans give a straightforward answer to some of the questions they have been repeatedly asked but never answered on this forum. To take just three:

1. how is voting the way the owners of the Times, Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Boris and Farage want voting against the establishment?

2. how likely is it that voting the way they want you to is going to be good for most people in this country?

3. do you honestly believe that a UK outside the EU is going to be more likely to stand up to big business, protect workers' rights and look after the environment?  

I await replies with interest but I am not holding my breath as most Brexit fans seem to want to avoid these issues whilst studiously avoiding remembering all the big lies in the Brexit campaign (£350m a week for the NHS, Turkey about to join the EU, leaving the EU means we can stop all immigration, etc).

I'm just playing Devil's advocate, xmiles. I didn't vote Brexit, remember! 

But you know that the establishment here means Cameron, Osborne and the rest of the Tories who backed the PM. There were dodgy characters on both sides, who lied, exaggerated, created spin etc.

As for points 2 and 3, it remains to be see how well the government manages the situation. 

This has always been my point: i.e. that it is impossible to foresee exactly how things will turn out because there too many imponderables. Neither wise men nor idiots, of whom there are many on both sides, can be sure they have voted the right way.

DC is to blame for the uncertainty, by holding a referendum simply to satisfy the grumbling back-benchers, and then running away once the vote did not go his way, having misjudged the electorate.

(Meanwhile, his cronyism continues unabated.)

I remember that you have said the exact same thing about Cameron's role in the whole affair, xmiles

I appreciate you playing Devil's advocate okocha because you can never get an answer out of those who did vote leave.

wanderlust wrote:

okocha wrote:You've answered one or two, but not all, of my questions, Wander- for example, how was the referendum "rigged"?

If I was play devil's advocate in response to the FT, I'd say "less likely" is speculative and no more conclusive than the opinion polls beforehand which were proved wildly wrong. HYS on BBC was far more accurate about the outcome.

You don't deal with the lies and scare-mongering of Remain's educated establishment figures.

The Spectator, on the other hand, does:

The UK economy is, for now at least, taking Brexit in its stride.

I'm afraid that big letters doesn't make this any less a load of tosh.
We are still in the EU if you hadn't noticed!

It's the Spectator, not me, that wrote these words....hardly a publication renowned for being "a load of tosh". I'm simply trying to balance the argument. I'm not a brexiter! 
You seem to be overlooking the rest of the article, especially the words "for now at least". They were in large bold print because that's the way they appeared after copying and pasting.
One or two of your earlier assertions remain unanswered.

Right. Let's go round one more time. 

okocha wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

okocha wrote:You've answered one or two, but not all, of my questions, Wander- for example, how was the referendum "rigged"?

If I was play devil's advocate in response to the FT, I'd say "less likely" is speculative and no more conclusive than the opinion polls beforehand which were proved wildly wrong. HYS on BBC was far more accurate about the outcome.

You don't deal with the lies and scare-mongering of Remain's educated establishment figures.

The Spectator, on the other hand, does:

The UK economy is, for now at least, taking Brexit in its stride.

I'm afraid that big letters doesn't make this any less a load of tosh.
We are still in the EU if you hadn't noticed!

It's the Spectator, not me, that wrote these words....hardly a publication renowned for being "a load of tosh". I'm simply trying to balance the argument. I'm not a brexiter! 
You seem to be overlooking the rest of the article, especially the words "for now at least". They were in large bold print because that's the way they appeared after copying and pasting.
One or two of your earlier assertions remain unanswered.

That article is old. The economic impact won't be fully felt or understood for a couple of years yet at the earliest so it's a bit premature to suggest that the concerns expressed pre-referendum won't materialise, especially when all the economic indicators are pointing to trouble ahead, specifically a contracting economy, a massively devalued pound and the only deals on the table from Europe necessitating free movement - with no new trade deals with the rest of the world in the bag.

They have been negotiating for the best part of three months now so the failure to secure any new business should worry all of us as new trade deals are the cornerstone of the Leave campaign's "plan" (and I use the word advisedly) to maintain a British economy that is based on service industries.

Probably best to stick to the facts for the time being because who knows? - the financial world may not be full of cutthroat pirates that put the boot into faltering economies as soon as they blink after all. 

It's a new world now and it will take time to see what will happen.

Overseas companies invested massively in the UK prior to the referendum creating/securing 116,000 jobs in the year to April and despite all the failings of the EU we had a very sweet deal and were doing very well out of it. Those jobs are coming through now hence the figures you cited. Similarly the effects of the falling pound and the fallout of the referendum will take time to come to light. We'll know more about whether we've won or lost in the fullness of time, but it's way too early to call at the moment.

Can anyone explain why they opted to use the electoral register as the voting criterion when it wasn't an election?

Enfin!     D'accord, mon ami.  

In the meanwhile, it just depends on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist, but it's been an interesting debate I think, though I doubt that very many fellow Nutters agree!  

Let's stick to views on BWFC for now. How unlucky with injuries have we been over the last few years!

okocha wrote:Enfin!     D'accord, mon ami.  

In the meanwhile, it just depends on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist...

I think we just have to let it unfold. The economy is a good indicator as to what's in store, however with a budget of >£800 billion a year to play with, what the Government decides to do with the money will be the key determinant of the effect on the daily lives of the nation. They could decide to scrap Trident and the chinese nuclear plants and spend the money on saving the NHS, front line services and a sustainable energy programme instead. Well technically they could, but Government has vested interests to consider.
But it's good to get an idea of how much they'll have to play with. 
Until we hear Hammond's Autumn budget in 2017 not much is likely to change, especially if borrowing more to keep the show on the road continues at current levels. 
One thing in our favour is that quite a few economies have been rattled lately and in an uncertain environment, we may just get those elusive trade deals after all.

Ok. I will try although in your opinion I am most likely poor, xenophobic, ignorant and a racist, comments for the record that are extremely offensive and are of a similar tone you accuse "Brexit fans" of.



1. how is voting the way the owners of the Times, Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Boris and Farage want voting against the establishment?

It isn't, the press, the media in general and Messrs Johnson and Farage are as much establishment as those advocating Remain there could not be an anti-establishment vote. The anti establishment veiw would be towards those perceived to have ignored /disenfranchised them, the Old School Tie brigade in Cameron and Osbourne, a former Labour leader whom has squirmed his way through the inquiry into the Iraq war and enriched himself greatly in the process, the money men who brought the economy to its knees but have sailed on serenely since, bankers, and theIMF, leaders of "Big Business" Richard Brandon et al and also and the entitled, celebrities with their self centred reasons for maintaining the status quo to enable them to flit effortlessly around Europe. Bob Geldoff, especially his stunt on the Thames with his Luvvie pals abusing fisherman and glugging champagne did the Remain cause some damage on the ITN and BBC News bulletins. These aren't my personal views, despicable though some of these people are but I don't doubt that those mentioned were the ones anyone wanting to stick two fingers up to the establishment had in mind.

2. how likely is it that voting the way they want you to is going to be good for most people in this country? It is no more likely or unlikely than if we remain. The argument can never be proved as we will never know what the future would have held if we had stayed in, it is a ridiculous question as Leavers obviously see a brighter future outside and Remainers inside. What should have happened is that there should have been a sensible debate by those in a position to put over their view, in language that the general public could understand, in the absence of that most people considered there own position just as you would at a General Election. The predominant view on here appears to be that Boris and the Leave campaign had a large influence on the poorer and less enlightened to vote leave with falsehoods and to a degree that is true, to what extent nobody knows but the influence of "Project Fear" for want of a better phrase and how many may have been influenced by that is hardly mentioned. My own outlook is that economically over the medium to long term it will be of slight benefit, being free of the Euro has enabled us to effect something of a recovery as is and plenty of countries manage to trade perfectly well with the Eurozone and EU from outside the EU, EEA and even EFTA. In addition the economic performance of the EU has been disappointing for a long time and as it's institutions and beaurocracy stifle innovation and discourage growth the UK will not need to achieve stellar growth to outperform the EU.

3. do you honestly believe that a UK outside the EU is going to be more likely to stand up to big business, protect workers' rights and look after the environment?

Big business - No the EU in theory at least has more clout and it will be interesting to see how the get on with the case against Apple but this will be a long  protracted case so we will have to wait for the outcome, interesting though that Ireland doesn't want this to go ahead. All government's across the world have this problem not just in Europe or the UK and as long as tax havens and off shore accounts exist then they will be taken advantage of, unless Apple have done something illegal as opposed to immoral then this may come to nothing.

The Environment - The EU has done many good things in this area and it would be a shame if a lot of good work was to come undone but it is not an unqualified success, there is an argument, not sure if it true or not that we are no longer allowed to dredge rivers and estuary's which has been blamed for some of the floods in recent years. On leaving we will have to look to pressure and special interest groups to keep the government on the straight an narrow. In any case there is no reason why we have to stop co-operating on such matters just because we are no longer members same would apply to science and research organisations.

Workers Rights - Workers rights, existing ones are already enshrined in law and although you wouldn't put it past government to fancy reworking them on occasion they have got to do legally and they can be challenged. Ultimately I believe that workers rights are a matter for national governments, it is precisely this obsession of having Europe wide legislation that has to apply to all weather it is appropriate or not that has got EU in such a state as it finds itself today. Besides being in the EU has not stopped zero hours contracts and other piss takes over the years but has made it practically impossible for Eurozone companies to shed staff when necessary and as a result they are reluctant to take on staff, hence high unemployment and stagnant growth.

Anyhoo, that's my two cents, off out now for six pints of white lightening and to abuse some ethnic minorities.

NickFazer wrote:Ok. I will try although in your opinion I am most likely poor, xenophobic, ignorant and a racist, comments for the record that are extremely offensive and are of a similar tone you accuse "Brexit fans" of.



1. how is voting the way the owners of the Times, Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Boris and Farage want voting against the establishment?

It isn't, the press, the media in general and Messrs Johnson and Farage are as much establishment as those advocating Remain there could not be an anti-establishment vote. The anti establishment veiw would be towards those perceived to have ignored /disenfranchised them, the Old School Tie brigade in Cameron and Osbourne, a former Labour leader whom has squirmed his way through the inquiry into the Iraq war and enriched himself greatly in the process, the money men who brought the economy to its knees but have sailed on serenely since, bankers, and theIMF, leaders of "Big Business" Richard Brandon et al and also and the entitled, celebrities with their self centred reasons for maintaining the status quo to enable them to flit effortlessly around Europe. Bob Geldoff, especially his stunt on the Thames with his Luvvie pals abusing fisherman and glugging champagne did the Remain cause some damage on the ITN and BBC News bulletins. These aren't my personal views, despicable though some of these people are but I don't doubt that those mentioned were the ones anyone wanting to stick two fingers up to the establishment had in mind.

2. how likely is it that voting the way they want you to is going to be good for most people in this country? It is no more likely or unlikely than if we remain. The argument can never be proved as we will never know what the future would have held if we had stayed in, it is a ridiculous question as Leavers obviously see a brighter future outside and Remainers inside. What should have happened is that there should have been a sensible debate by those in a position to put over their view, in language that the general public could understand, in the absence of that most people considered there own position just as you would at a General Election. The predominant view on here appears to be that Boris and the Leave campaign had a large influence on the poorer and less enlightened to vote leave with falsehoods and to a degree that is true, to what extent nobody knows but the influence of "Project Fear" for want of a better phrase and how many may have been influenced by that is hardly mentioned. My own outlook is that economically over the medium to long term it will be of slight benefit, being free of the Euro has enabled us to effect something of a recovery as is and plenty of countries manage to trade perfectly well with the Eurozone and EU from outside the EU, EEA and even EFTA. In addition the economic performance of the EU has been disappointing for a long time and as it's institutions and beaurocracy stifle innovation and discourage growth the UK will not need to achieve stellar growth to outperform the EU.

3. do you honestly believe that a UK outside the EU is going to be more likely to stand up to big business, protect workers' rights and look after the environment?

Big business - No the EU in theory at least has more clout and it will be interesting to see how the get on with the case against Apple but this will be a long  protracted case so we will have to wait for the outcome, interesting though that Ireland doesn't want this to go ahead. All government's across the world have this problem not just in Europe or the UK and as long as tax havens and off shore accounts exist then they will be taken advantage of, unless Apple have done something illegal as opposed to immoral then this may come to nothing.

The Environment - The EU has done many good things in this area and it would be a shame if a lot of good work was to come undone but it is not an unqualified success, there is an argument, not sure if it true or not that we are no longer allowed to dredge rivers and estuary's which has been blamed for some of the floors in recent years. On leaving we will have to look to pressure and special interest groups to keep the government on the straight an narrow. In any case there is no reason why we have to stop co-operating on such matters just because we are no longer members same would apply to science and research organisations.

Workers Rights - Workers rights, existing ones are already enshrined in law and although you wouldn't put it past government to fancy reworking them on occasion they have got to do legally and they can be challenged. Ultimately I believe that workers rights are a matter for national governments, it is precisely this obsession of having Europe wide legislation that has to apply to all weather it is appropriate or not that has got EU in such a state as it finds itself today. Besides being in the EU has not stopped zero hours contracts and other piss takes over the years but has made it practically impossible for Eurozone companies to shed staff when necessary and as a result they are reluctant to take on staff, hence high unemployment and stagnant growth.

Anyhoo, that's my two cents, off out now for six pints of white lightening and to abuse some ethnic minorities.

Then home to watch Jeremy Kyle on sky+

Aye Lad

And don't forget the crayon kebab on the way home with extra chilli sauce

Don't eat that foreign shite, no it's cow heel and tripe for me

Just as a matter of interest, if Apple is guilty and has to stump up the odd 13 billion Euro's is it Ireland that has to recover the money or the EU and is it the EU that is owed the money or Ireland? Seems strange that Dublin is desperate for this to go away.