Brexit negotiations

The Labour Party has not helped in any way with the Brexit negotiations. They decided very early on that they would sit on the fence. They knew it would be a very difficult and trying time, and with no solutions of their own, their third rate shadow cabinet set up their 6 tests, and sat back. If they get in to power, it won't be on their own merits, but only because the Tories have royally cocked up on the Brexit issue.
I don't like the outcome of negotiations, and I'm not surprised to see the French have already said that they want access to our fishing grounds, otherwise they will not let us activate the backstop to let us go, should we decide, and the Spaniards have already said that this is the best opportunity ever, for them to take back ownership of Gibraltar. Many of the 27 will now be climbing on their own  particular bandwagon, and the deal we have agreed gives us no way to fight it. 
'European friends' ?  I don't think so.

gloswhite wrote:The Labour Party has not helped in any way with the Brexit negotiations. They decided very early on that they would sit on the fence. They knew it would be a very difficult and trying time, and with no solutions of their own, their third rate shadow cabinet set up their 6 tests, and sat back. If they get in to power, it won't be on their own merits, but only because the Tories have royally cocked up on the Brexit issue.
I don't like the outcome of negotiations, and I'm not surprised to see the French have already said that they want access to our fishing grounds, otherwise they will not let us activate the backstop to let us go, should we decide, and the Spaniards have already said that this is the best opportunity ever, for them to take back ownership of Gibraltar. Many of the 27 will now be climbing on their own  particular bandwagon, and the deal we have agreed gives us no way to fight it. 
'European friends' ?  I don't think so.

Glos you seem to be saying that it would have been better to have stayed in the EU.

.....and if he is, based on this deal, he may well have a point!!

xmiles wrote:

Cajunboy wrote:So it was okay for The Labour party to  destabilise the country after the election?

I see, thanks.

Are you serious?

Cameron had a majority and he was going to have the referendum whatever the Labour party did or did not do. It was Cameron who destabilised the country for purely selfish party political reasons.

No I wasn't serious, I was being mischievous.

I'm actually disgusted with Cameron for getting us into this mess in the first place and the arrogance of Cameron and Osborne in assuming that the country would vote against Brexit.

The Tory's were then stupid enough to choose a leader who was a remainer and had no passion  for Brexit.

She was then stupid enough to call a General Election and lose her majority.

The next few weeks are going to be very interesting.

Just so everyone knows. While the LEADERS of the various EU countries have accepted the deal it's still provisional since it has to be ratified by their parliaments. Poland in particular may well ultimately reject it as the UK is far from popular there and their parliament has been vociferous in their opposition to any deal at all. Add in that it's unlikely our own parliament is going to vote in favour of it and May has a HUGE problem. She's apparently hoping the electorate will put pressure on MP's to vote for the deal. That's truly dumb since the electoral majority voted to leave and I can't really see too many MP's wanting to commit personal political suicide by voting against their own constituents wishes. I suspect we may well be looking at a new General Election right after Christmas.

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:The Labour Party has not helped in any way with the Brexit negotiations. They decided very early on that they would sit on the fence. They knew it would be a very difficult and trying time, and with no solutions of their own, their third rate shadow cabinet set up their 6 tests, and sat back. If they get in to power, it won't be on their own merits, but only because the Tories have royally cocked up on the Brexit issue.
I don't like the outcome of negotiations, and I'm not surprised to see the French have already said that they want access to our fishing grounds, otherwise they will not let us activate the backstop to let us go, should we decide, and the Spaniards have already said that this is the best opportunity ever, for them to take back ownership of Gibraltar. Many of the 27 will now be climbing on their own  particular bandwagon, and the deal we have agreed gives us no way to fight it. 
'European friends' ?  I don't think so.

Glos you seem to be saying that it would have been better to have stayed in the EU.

Absolutely, 100%, NOT. The cleaner the break from those duplicitous bastards, the better.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Just so everyone knows. While the LEADERS of the various EU countries have accepted the deal it's still provisional since it has to be ratified by their parliaments. Poland in particular may well ultimately reject it as the UK is far from popular there and their parliament has been vociferous in their opposition to any deal at all. Add in that it's unlikely our own parliament is going to vote in favour of it and May has a HUGE problem. She's apparently hoping the electorate will put pressure on MP's to vote for the deal. That's truly dumb since the electoral majority voted to leave and I can't really see too many MP's wanting to commit personal political suicide by voting against their own constituents wishes. I suspect we may well be looking at a new General Election right after Christmas.

You may be right about an election, but really, how will this resolve the mire we are currently in ?  As with the 'People's Vote', it will only prolong the agony, and rather than put pressure on the EU, it will give them the opportunity to pile on pressure of their own. 
If Labour were to get in, the country would come to a grinding halt, as this current bunch wouldn't have the first idea of what is needed. 'If you can't do it, move over and let someone who can.' .. hahahaha

gloswhite wrote:The Labour Party has not helped in any way with the Brexit negotiations. They decided very early on that they would sit on the fence. They knew it would be a very difficult and trying time, and with no solutions of their own, their third rate shadow cabinet set up their 6 tests, and sat back. If they get in to power, it won't be on their own merits, but only because the Tories have royally cocked up on the Brexit issue.
I don't like the outcome of negotiations, and I'm not surprised to see the French have already said that they want access to our fishing grounds, otherwise they will not let us activate the backstop to let us go, should we decide, and the Spaniards have already said that this is the best opportunity ever, for them to take back ownership of Gibraltar. Many of the 27 will now be climbing on their own  particular bandwagon, and the deal we have agreed gives us no way to fight it. 
'European friends' ?  I don't think so.

Friends or not, they have no reason to give us a ‘good’ deal. That’s never been a secret mate. I guess the option is, take the one on offer or no deal.

Sorry TROY, can't agree (how unusual  ), They do have something to lose, a great deal in fact. The problem for us is that losses for them will have less effect on the EU, than any corresponding losses on the UK.  They can ride out any disruption than us, which gives them the upper hand. If we were to walk away, (probably through our own ineptitude), then I believe you will see a flurry of activity either individually, or as the EU itself. What we mustn't do, is give in even further.

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:The Labour Party has not helped in any way with the Brexit negotiations. They decided very early on that they would sit on the fence. They knew it would be a very difficult and trying time, and with no solutions of their own, their third rate shadow cabinet set up their 6 tests, and sat back. If they get in to power, it won't be on their own merits, but only because the Tories have royally cocked up on the Brexit issue.
I don't like the outcome of negotiations, and I'm not surprised to see the French have already said that they want access to our fishing grounds, otherwise they will not let us activate the backstop to let us go, should we decide, and the Spaniards have already said that this is the best opportunity ever, for them to take back ownership of Gibraltar. Many of the 27 will now be climbing on their own  particular bandwagon, and the deal we have agreed gives us no way to fight it. 
'European friends' ?  I don't think so.

Glos you seem to be saying that it would have been better to have stayed in the EU.

Absolutely, 100%, NOT. The cleaner the break from those duplicitous bastards, the better.

Perhaps you can refresh my memory as to why you are so pissed off with the EU. What exactly made you think agreeing with Farage, Boris, Trump, Putin, the Sun and the Daily Mail was the right thing to do?

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:The Labour Party has not helped in any way with the Brexit negotiations. They decided very early on that they would sit on the fence. They knew it would be a very difficult and trying time, and with no solutions of their own, their third rate shadow cabinet set up their 6 tests, and sat back. If they get in to power, it won't be on their own merits, but only because the Tories have royally cocked up on the Brexit issue.
I don't like the outcome of negotiations, and I'm not surprised to see the French have already said that they want access to our fishing grounds, otherwise they will not let us activate the backstop to let us go, should we decide, and the Spaniards have already said that this is the best opportunity ever, for them to take back ownership of Gibraltar. Many of the 27 will now be climbing on their own  particular bandwagon, and the deal we have agreed gives us no way to fight it. 
'European friends' ?  I don't think so.

Glos you seem to be saying that it would have been better to have stayed in the EU.

Absolutely, 100%, NOT. The cleaner the break from those duplicitous bastards, the better.

Perhaps you can refresh my memory as to why you are so pissed off with the EU. What exactly made you think agreeing with Farage, Boris, Trump, Putin, the Sun and the Daily Mail was the right thing to do?

Who said I agreed with them? I probably did from time to time, but I didn't in any way deem them to be the be-all and end-all of the Brexit argument. 
In fact I remember in one post, (to yourself I think), saying that anyone who actually believed in the bus and its figures was very naive. Maybe I should have listened to Corbyn, (no, he hasn't said anything), or maybe Diane Abbot, (no, she hasn't said much either). What about Emily Thornberry ? (No, she's best at making faces and sneering, and saying '6 tests'). Or maybe the shadow Chancellor, (no, he just promises all his prospective voters every thing they want). Keir Starmer? (no, he just wants us to go straight into the EU, and to hell with democracy)
I'm pissed aoff with the EU because they haven't been fair with us, preferring instead to bully us, not just to get a good trading deal, but to use us an an example to other countries. You may not think it, but I think we are too big, and too good a country, to be treated in such a way.

Glos I think you are raising two separate issues: the decision to vote leave and the negotiations after the vote.

On the vote itself I find it difficult to understand why a reasonable person would not be very suspicious of anything such unsavoury people and organisations were telling you to do. How likely was it that their interests and yours were the same?

On the negotiations themselves why did anyone think it would be easy? The rubbish spouted by brexiteers like Fox (he actually said the brexit negotiations would be "the easiest in human history") shows how dishonest and unrealistic the whole brexit campaign was. It is not a question of fairness - that is not how negotiations work in the real world.

We are a big country but unfortunately we stand to lose more by leaving the EU than the other 27 will do.

xmiles wrote:On the vote itself I find it difficult to understand why a reasonable person would not be very suspicious of anything such unsavoury people and organisations were telling you to do.

So you put your trust in Cameron?

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:On the vote itself I find it difficult to understand why a reasonable person would not be very suspicious of anything such unsavoury people and organisations were telling you to do.

So you put your trust in Cameron?

I think you know the answer to that!

Is it possible that some people didn't pay any attention to Farage, Cameron etc and just made their own decision?

Natasha Whittam wrote:Is it possible that some people didn't pay any attention to Farage, Cameron etc and just made their own decision?

Yes. I wonder what they based their decision on though.

xmiles wrote:Yes. I wonder what they based their decision on though.

Research or personal experience for example.

XM, your comment:

On the vote itself I find it difficult to understand why a reasonable person would not be very suspicious of anything such unsavoury people and organisations were telling you to do. How likely was it that their interests and yours were the same?


This really does apply to both sides, (Buses v Project Fear) Also, I would throw in that the Remainers knew what they had, wanted to keep it at all costs, and it was/is those very people who had the closed minds. The Leavers knew what they had, didn't like it, and wanted out. Of the two, I would think that the Leavers were more prepared to think out of the box, and be prepared to listen to the wider argument. Those are the baselines, and people listened, and probably decided what suited their own arguments best, rather than be led by the nose, as implied. There's no winner in this build up argument, both sided behaved abominably, with the resultant chaos we now have. 
One good thing though, us Leavers are no longer being abused. Sad that it got to such a state.

gloswhite wrote:XM, your comment:

On the vote itself I find it difficult to understand why a reasonable person would not be very suspicious of anything such unsavoury people and organisations were telling you to do. How likely was it that their interests and yours were the same?


This really does apply to both sides, (Buses v Project Fear) Also, I would throw in that the Remainers knew what they had, wanted to keep it at all costs, and it was/is those very people who had the closed minds. The Leavers knew what they had, didn't like it, and wanted out. Of the two, I would think that the Leavers were more prepared to think out of the box, and be prepared to listen to the wider argument. Those are the baselines, and people listened, and probably decided what suited their own arguments best, rather than be led by the nose, as implied. There's no winner in this build up argument, both sided behaved abominably, with the resultant chaos we now have. 
One good thing though, us Leavers are no longer being abused. Sad that it got to such a state.

Yes there were people arguing for remain that I do not like or respect but when you look at the two camps you see a very different picture. The prominent leave campaigners were serial liars like Boris and Trump and nasty people and organisations like Farage, Banks, the Sun and Daily Mail. Where were the people you could respect or trust?

Those advocating remain included almost all experts and a lot of decent people plus some I don't respect. However even those I don't respect are not as obnoxious as just about all the famous people advocating leave.

As for leavers being abused, what about all the abuse heaped not just on remain supporters but impartial people doing their job such as judges being described as traitors?

I make my own decisions, you seem obsessed by following other people.

It shouldn't matter what Cameron, Farage, David Beckham, Will Buckley or the Queen thought - you should make decisions based on your own experiences and knowledge.