Brexit negotiations

Every argument made for a second ref is one that could and would be made for a third.

I repeat the result has not been implemented. I'm sure proponents of a second ref would be happy for a similar re run of a general election.

Also funny how the people's vote mob aren't also arguing for a second Scottish independence referendum. What are they afraid of?

Hipster_Nebula wrote:Every argument made for a second ref is one that could and would be made for a third.

I repeat the result has not been implemented. I'm sure proponents of a second ref would be happy for a similar re run of a general election.

Also funny how the people's vote mob aren't also arguing for a second Scottish independence referendum. What are they afraid of?

Simply not true. We now know what the terms of leaving the EU are whereas before it was just lies and bullshit. If a second referendum produced a different result that would not be an argument for a third referendum.

As for the Scottish independence referendum what has that got to do with the EU referendum apart from the fact that it was a referendum?

Yes as is the case with every general election. 

We have a month of lies and bs and manifesto pledges which are ripped up the minute the new PM sits down. Also there is always incidents of electoral fraud.

Obviously we need to check if the Scottish people have changed their minds? We now know what the terms of staying in the union are. Simple democracy and I'm sure you would be happy to let us have another vote in the clear light of day.

The only thing that has really changed about Scottish independence since the referendum is the exposure of how fraudulent the economic case for independence was. It was based on the price of oil and expecting to write off the Scottish share of the National Debt. And on joining the EU as an independent nation without adopting the Euro - something I am sure both of us find laughable. The terms of staying in the UK were always known and have not changed.

Those who believe in the case for independence don't agree. 

They were told a vote to stay would mean a vote to stay in the EU. 

Quite a big change.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:Brexiteers don't want a second referendum because they are frightened they might lose it. If they were confident of winning again they would welcome a second referendum. In the event of a second vote for leaving the EU it really would be all over.

I've never argued that another referendum might produce a different result, I agree it might.

But that isn't the point.

Let's say there was another referendum and the Remain vote won - wouldn't the "leavers" just make the same arguments that you're making now and insist on a "best of 3" referendum? It could go on for years.

Your argument isn't with the referendum, it's with democracy. I think a permanent move to North Korea might suit you and wanderlust.

Surely North Korea would be a more appropriate venue for the Leave campaigners as there are huge similiarities in their provision of disinformation to the people in order to further their own agendas?

And it's the abuse of the British democratic process that is the problem with the referendum.

And although the lies that were told, the abuse of position, the limited options, the denial of a vote to millions of eligible voters and the emergence of the facts are compelling reasons for a second referendum, what possible reason is there for justifying a 3rd providing the 2nd is carried out democratically and with full disclosure of the facts?

Do tell.

Quite obvious really. Are the people not allowed to change their mind? 

I'll ignore the nonsense about North Korea.

Have you noticed on social media how much utter crap that Brexiteers are reposting at the moment ? Things like how Switzerland is not in the EU, but has no hard borders etc. When I point out that they are in the Schengen Agreement and part of the EEA agreement which mean that they also accept freedom of movement (the thing a lot of Leavers don the want) they go in to meltdown calling it bullshit and project fear. Then they post a picture of an x-ray implying remainers have skulls like Neanderthal man. I am starting to believe that there will be a civil war if there is another vote as it is clear that a hell of a lot of people are not at all interested to accept truths if it goes against their hatred of the EU.

Yet more evidence Dunkels of how toxic facts are to brexiteers. When confronted with a fact that demolishes their position the default response from a brexit fan is not a reasoned counter argument it is just raw abuse. Read earlier posts on this thread for some choice examples.

Yes the remainers and toxic fbpe mob are very respectful and never resort to abuse.

They definitely don't say leavers are thick old racists who didn't know what they were voting for.

They definitely don't rejoice in older voters "dying out."

And there won't be a civil war. There will be a few idiotic Tommy Robinson fans in yellow vests shouting at 78 year old people who believe in fairies waving EU flags. 

Still waiting for an answer to my q above. Are the people not allowed to change their mind again after a second ref? Whichever way it may go. Why are we not allowed to see if the people of Scotland have changed their mind? This is one of the main arguments from the people's vote crowd... It's the very basis of democracy.

If we do have a second referendum or peoples vote then it would be for what we have on the table now surely? It wouldn't be a straight yes or no like last time so it is not a repeat of the original vote.

This decision is going to affect all of us and future generations so if we need another vote on something so important then what's the issue?

Pretty clear to me that the Scots should get another vote on independence if we leave the EU as that would be a massive change to the union they voted to remain a part of. Should be a few years wait though once we know the lay of the land with Brexit.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

Still waiting for an answer to my q above. Are the people not allowed to change their mind again after a second ref? Whichever way it may go. Why are we not allowed to see if the people of Scotland have changed their mind? This is one of the main arguments from the people's vote crowd... It's the very basis of democracy.

This isn't so much about people changing their mind as about actually knowing what they are voting for i.e. the terms on which we can leave the EU and no bullshit lies about £350m for the NHS.

And if we leave the EU it seems only reasonable that the Scots should be given another referendum if they want one.

T.R.O.Y wrote:Pretty clear to me that the Scots should get another vote on independence if we leave the EU as that would be a massive change to the union they voted to remain a part of. Should be a few years wait though once we know the lay of the land with Brexit.

Why do we need wait? People's vote mob want to have a second vote without enacting the result of the first.

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

Still waiting for an answer to my q above. Are the people not allowed to change their mind again after a second ref? Whichever way it may go. Why are we not allowed to see if the people of Scotland have changed their mind? This is one of the main arguments from the people's vote crowd... It's the very basis of democracy.

This isn't so much about people changing their mind as about actually knowing what they are voting for i.e. the terms on which we can leave the EU and no bullshit lies about £350m for the NHS.

And if we leave the EU it seems only reasonable that the Scots should be given another referendum if they want one.

I knew what I was voting for.

To leave the EU and it's its associated bodies.

The government have botched the negotiation but that does not mean the people should be ignored. It would set quite a president. People still haven't answered if they would be happy to see a similar outcome in a general election? 

We all agree the brexit campaign was a pile of lies by both sides. (Remain lies rarely get publicised though do they)

As you know that (indyref2) won't happen. Quite naked double standards from the people's vote mob.

You may have voted to leave the EU and it’s associated bodies but that wasn’t the only form of Brexit on offer - and it still isn’t. I know leavers who wanted a Norway style deal as promoted by many prominent leavers pre referendum. Should they be ignored? Why is only your version of Brexit relevant?

And for why Scots should have to wait - the result of Brexit will inform the debate massively, why would you not want all the information out there?

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

xmiles wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

Still waiting for an answer to my q above. Are the people not allowed to change their mind again after a second ref? Whichever way it may go. Why are we not allowed to see if the people of Scotland have changed their mind? This is one of the main arguments from the people's vote crowd... It's the very basis of democracy.

This isn't so much about people changing their mind as about actually knowing what they are voting for i.e. the terms on which we can leave the EU and no bullshit lies about £350m for the NHS.

And if we leave the EU it seems only reasonable that the Scots should be given another referendum if they want one.

I knew what I was voting for.

To leave the EU and it's its associated bodies.

The government have botched the negotiation but that does not mean the people should be ignored. It would set quite a president. People still haven't answered if they would be happy to see a similar outcome in a general election? 

We all agree the brexit campaign was a pile of lies by both sides. (Remain lies rarely get publicised though do they)

As you know that (indyref2) won't happen. Quite naked double standards from the people's vote mob.

Give me a list of lies with their sources from the Remain campaign. Don’t include the usual shit about how the economy didn’t collapse like you were told, because Brexit hasn’t happened yet. I can point you to a list of 200 stories told by Newspapers about the EU, every single one of which has been proven to be a lie. A general election is a completely different thing. You can’t put it side by side with a Referendum. The Referendum directly affects where people are going to be able to live and work in the future. The right that people had to move freely is being taken away. No general election ever did that.

General elections effect every aspect of people's lives.

EU army is one lie that comes to mind.

Hipster why don't you give us some examples of Remain lies, say at least five. It should be easy given you claim there was a pile of them.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:General elections effect every aspect of people's lives.

EU army is one lie that comes to mind.

Care to elaborate about the "EU army" since there never were any plans for an EU army, just talk about greater cooperation. Here is some background from what is I believe a neutral source:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=17&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiG09P2kcPfAhX5QRUIHUhtCy8QFjAQegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forces.net%2Fnews%2Fwhat-european-army-and-could-it-become-reality&usg=AOvVaw0lYpcZbnzdf5-C9SWU02KA