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Tory Cuts

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1Tory Cuts Empty Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 12:04

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff

2Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 14:32

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Crime up, homelessness up, public funding down, slashing of social care and in particular mental health care budgets - can't they see these things are interrelated?

The only cuts they are interested in are tax cuts for the rich.

3Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 16:12

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I, fairly obviously, agree.

It will be interesting to see if Hipster has any observations on this subject.

4Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 18:07

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Got to get the money from somewhere. 

Money only comes from taxation and borrowing. 

Taxing the rich into oblivion doesn't make the poor rich btw.

We could start by scrapping vanity projects like HS2 and crossrail.

5Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 18:21

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Got to get the money from somewhere. 

Money only comes from taxation and borrowing. 

Taxing the rich into oblivion doesn't make the poor rich btw.

We could start by scrapping vanity projects like HS2 and crossrail.
See Donald Trump... see how he enriched his friends and now says we have to cut "entitlements" like social security and Medicare (both which are not entitlements, but are paid for by everyone working).

6Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 19:07

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Well I believe in fairness I don't believe welfare should be a lifestyle. I work in the community in Scotland and believe me it is. The SNP advertise benefits on the radio. Want more benefits? Ring this number!! No I'm not joking. 

You get 600 quid just for having a child here...if you're on benefits of course. No rewards what so ever for hard working families.

People ring up every day and say "my fridge is broken I want a new one" no questions asked there it is. And the fridge is just an example.

You also get a grant upon leaving prison here. Yes a reward for doing time.

7Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 19:52

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@wanderlust wrote:Crime up, homelessness up, public funding down, slashing of social care and in particular mental health care budgets - can't they see these things are interrelated?

The only cuts they are interested in are tax cuts for the rich.

Pretty impossible to argue that the cuts didn’t go too far. Then you look at the public assets sold off for short term gain - same as under Thatcher. The damage the Tories have done is staggering.

8Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 22:24

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Cool now you have decided what is bad about the Tories, now let's here what is good about this Particular Labour Party particularly the dynamic duo of Corbin and Abbott

9Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 22:31

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Heidi Allen finding a conscience. Weird she couldn’t find it when she was on the front bench and voted for tax credit cuts.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/24/ive-absolutely-had-enough-tory-mp-embarks-on-anti-austerity-tour

10Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 22:57

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Got to get the money from somewhere. 

Money only comes from taxation and borrowing. 

Taxing the rich into oblivion doesn't make the poor rich btw.

We could start by scrapping vanity projects like HS2 and crossrail.

No objection to scrapping HS2 but the rich (anyone with an income over £500,000) mostly pay little or no tax. Once you reach a certain level you just hire accountants and lawyers to arrange your affairs to avoid paying tax. If tax returns were made publicly available as they are in Norway this would be clear to everybody.

11Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 23:05

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
One thing that’s often forgotten are the cuts the Tories made to the mechanisms of catching tax evasion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tax-office-workers-to-strike-tomorrow-in-massive-cuts-protest-7879545.html

12Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Thu Jan 24 2019, 23:11

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:One thing that’s often forgotten are the cuts the Tories made to the mechanisms of catching tax evasion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tax-office-workers-to-strike-tomorrow-in-massive-cuts-protest-7879545.html

Exactly and any talk of cracking down on tax evasion is just more Tory lies. They will never implement any effective legislation because it would hurt their friends and financial backers.

13Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 01:00

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Angry Dad wrote:Cool now you have decided what is bad about the Tories, now let's here what is good about this Particular Labour Party particularly the dynamic duo of Corbin and Abbott
I agree Corbyn isn't a particularly attractive alternative to many, many people including me, but this is about policies and unfortunately those people that voted these morons in on the basis of personality or prejudice have screwed this once great country, themselves and everyone else.
Would Corbyn have done a worse job? Possibly but doing a worse job would take some doing from anyone. 
The Tories have/are dividing the nation and history has shown that no good has ever come from that. I don't like Man United but if they could save the country I'd vote for them.

No Tory has ever got the right to whinge about homeless people, rising crime, the state of the NHS, child poverty, social unrest, care for the elderly and mentally ill, the price and availability of petrol/holidays/food etc,  the decline of British industry or Britain's status in the world because they caused it all and are overseeing the fall of a once great nation. 
Even Corbyn couldn't have managed that and he's an idiot.

And once they've finished f****** Britain over, they'll probably do a Nigel Lawson.

14Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 07:50

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:One thing that’s often forgotten are the cuts the Tories made to the mechanisms of catching tax evasion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tax-office-workers-to-strike-tomorrow-in-massive-cuts-protest-7879545.html

Exactly and any talk of cracking down on tax evasion is just more Tory lies. They will never implement any effective legislation because it would hurt their friends and financial backers.

As you both know the rich always have mechanisms for protecting their money.

Move it to another country. Take their interests and jobs elsewhere.

It's a fools errand.

Corbyn thinks he can run a country on a bloated public sector by punishing the private sector. Just remember the public sector creates no tax returns.

So... We borrow. There are no other ways to make money.

15Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 09:21

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:One thing that’s often forgotten are the cuts the Tories made to the mechanisms of catching tax evasion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tax-office-workers-to-strike-tomorrow-in-massive-cuts-protest-7879545.html

Exactly and any talk of cracking down on tax evasion is just more Tory lies. They will never implement any effective legislation because it would hurt their friends and financial backers.

As you both know the rich always have mechanisms for protecting their money.

Move it to another country. Take their interests and jobs elsewhere.

It's a fools errand.

Corbyn thinks he can run a country on a bloated public sector by punishing the private sector. Just remember the public sector creates no tax returns.

So... We borrow. There are no other ways to make money.

The rich always talk about leaving the country but virtually none of them do. Do you remember various idiots threatening to leave if Labour won in 1997? How many did? The only rich tosser leaving the country at the moment is Lawson after telling us how wonerdful brexit is going to be.

I am not arguing for punitive rates of tax but a recognition that everyone should pay a fair share. At the moment paying tax is an option if you are rich. There are plenty of tax loopholes that could be closed without driving the rich overseas. It would help if we actually prosecuted tax evaders in the same way as benefit fraud. Tax prosecutions are extremely rare in this country.

You say the public sector creates no tax returns but that is not completely true. People employed in the public sector pay tax. Many of the sectors privatised by the Tories receive massive handouts which are then used to pay dividends to their owners (the railways, probation services, etc). The private sector is not necessarily more efficient than the public sector and because it is driven solely by the desire to maximise dividends it often delivers very poor value for money with nasty social consequences (the prison services, care homes, etc).

We are all (well maybe not the rich) seeing the results of the Tory austerity cuts.

16Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 09:30

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
The problem I have is what constitutes fair. I believe I pay far too much now.

There are people who pay zero and get far more benefits than I could ever dream of.

Will that end of the spectrum be addressed? No of course not.

The public sector is paid by the gov. The money is just in a washing machine. It creates no new money.

17Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 09:40

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I don't know why you think you pay too much tax because obviously I don't know your circumstances but if you live in a society some people are going to be net contributors and some net beneficiaries. It will also change as your circumstances change.

To me fair taxation would involve three things:
1. a mansion tax on property worth over say £1,000,000
2. raising the tax thresholds and introducing a top rate of income tax of 50%
3. taking effective steps to deal with tax avoidance.

18Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 09:46

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I think I pay too much because those who don't work don't have to pay council tax, their rent is subsidised, they don't have to pay child care and when they get old their care is funded while my house will  be sold.

Is that fair? No it's not but the left would never ever dare to address that inequality.

19Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 09:52

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
So do you want to see Victorian workhouses reintroduced or are you saying the unemployed should just be left to starve?

20Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 09:55

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I rest my case.

21Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 09:59

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I believe child benefit and some tax credits can be received on people earning up to £50,000 a year can't they?

Also kids from the age of 2 can receive so many hours a week free regardless although this may depend on your local council.

So there are entitlements people can receive who do work.

22Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 10:00

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I do know that in Bolton, people on benefits have to pay a proportion of council tax (not sure of amount). Yes I get it comes out of the money they receieve from the government but atleast it's something the local council receives.

23Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 10:36

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
They don't earn any money? So it's not a new receipt.

24Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 11:24

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@xmiles wrote:I don't know why you think you pay too much tax because obviously I don't know your circumstances but if you live in a society some people are going to be net contributors and some net beneficiaries. It will also change as your circumstances change.

To me fair taxation would involve three things:
1. a mansion tax on property worth over say £1,000,000
2. raising the tax thresholds and introducing a top rate of income tax of 50%
3. taking effective steps to deal with tax avoidance.

Would either of the first two options impact on yourself XM?

25Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 11:32

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:So do you want to see Victorian workhouses reintroduced or are you saying the unemployed should just be left to starve?
I think the Government could be a lot smarter in considering what contribution unemployed people could make to society by introducing a state work programme that competes in the market. It's not that there are jobs that don't need doing  it's just that in times of prosperity, folk are employed to do them but they get laid off when the economy has a downturn. Surely if the State employs e.g. laid off folk in all sectors to do what they are trained to do, service provision gaps and manufacturing shortfalls could be filled and the money spent on benefits would go towards their wages.

26Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 12:23

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:I don't know why you think you pay too much tax because obviously I don't know your circumstances but if you live in a society some people are going to be net contributors and some net beneficiaries. It will also change as your circumstances change.

To me fair taxation would involve three things:
1. a mansion tax on property worth over say £1,000,000
2. raising the tax thresholds and introducing a top rate of income tax of 50%
3. taking effective steps to deal with tax avoidance.

Would either of the first two options impact on yourself XM?

Yes, so what is your point?

27Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 13:29

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Crikey xmiles lives in a mansion worth over a million quid.

Why not just pay more tax now xmiles? You can clearly afford it, and you're passionate about it from our exchanges I can see that.

28Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 14:47

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:I don't know why you think you pay too much tax because obviously I don't know your circumstances but if you live in a society some people are going to be net contributors and some net beneficiaries. It will also change as your circumstances change.

To me fair taxation would involve three things:
1. a mansion tax on property worth over say £1,000,000
2. raising the tax thresholds and introducing a top rate of income tax of 50%
3. taking effective steps to deal with tax avoidance.

Would either of the first two options impact on yourself XM?

Yes, so what is your point?
It explains your attitude to some aspects of Brexit. 
Remaining in the EU only to safeguard your income/savings, remarks about Northeners, and your embitterment towards the whole Brexit argument. You're afraid you're going to lose too much.

29Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 15:01

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Don’t think many would trade an ideologically driven Brexit for losing money Glos. Millionaire remain voter or working class leave voter.

30Tory Cuts Empty Re: Tory Cuts on Fri Jan 25 2019, 15:05

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:I don't know why you think you pay too much tax because obviously I don't know your circumstances but if you live in a society some people are going to be net contributors and some net beneficiaries. It will also change as your circumstances change.

To me fair taxation would involve three things:
1. a mansion tax on property worth over say £1,000,000
2. raising the tax thresholds and introducing a top rate of income tax of 50%
3. taking effective steps to deal with tax avoidance.

Would either of the first two options impact on yourself XM?

Yes, so what is your point?
It explains your attitude to some aspects of Brexit. 
Remaining in the EU only to safeguard your income/savings, remarks about Northeners, and your embitterment towards the whole Brexit argument. You're afraid you're going to lose too much.

So many things wrong in so few words!

1. How does advocating a fairer system of taxation explain my "attitude to some aspects of brexit"?
2. Where have I ever said I want to remain in the EU to safeguard my income/savings, let alone that it is the only reason?
3. What remarks about Northeners? Show me where I have said anything disrespectful about Northeners.
4. What brexit argument? All I have seen is wishful thinking, lies and prejudice. Brexit fans refuse to engage with facts.
5. What is it you think I am going to lose too much of if we leave the EU that vast numbers of other people won't also lose?

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