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General Election

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1General Election Empty General Election on Sun Oct 27 2019, 01:47

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
According to today's news, Lib Dems and SNP want one for different reasons - Lib Dems to grab more seats which they would and SNP to support their agenda for leaving the UK. Obviously Labour don't want one now whilst the unelectable Corbyn is at the helm - something that won't change until Sir Keir is the leader - but it seems that the LDs and SNP are playing the same silly game of party politics that the Tories are - and that's a disaster for the Remain movement.
Obviously the Tories would fight the campaign on railroading through Brexit but with all the evidence now pointing to the majority of Brits who can vote wanting to Remain after the deaths of so many geriatric Leave voters, the silent Remainers at the referendum and the million or so youngsters who have become eligible to vote over the last three years being 3 to 1 in favour of remaining in the EU, surely the most sensible option would be a Remain alliance with the multiple pro-Remain parties not putting up a candidate in areas where they can't win in order to avoid splitting the vote?

But no. Party politics is likely to win out and the Remain vote will be split. Effing politicians talk about "national interest" but the reality is they are looking after number one. And it's a big steaming, smelly number one.

2General Election Empty Re: General Election on Sun Oct 27 2019, 15:50

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@wanderlust wrote:According to today's news, Lib Dems and SNP want one for different reasons - Lib Dems to grab more seats which they would and SNP to support their agenda for leaving the UK. Obviously Labour don't want one now whilst the unelectable Corbyn is at the helm - something that won't change until Sir Keir is the leader - but it seems that the LDs and SNP are playing the same silly game of party politics that the Tories are - and that's a disaster for the Remain movement.
Obviously the Tories would fight the campaign on railroading through Brexit but with all the evidence now pointing to the majority of Brits who can vote wanting to Remain after the deaths of so many geriatric Leave voters, the silent Remainers at the referendum and the million or so youngsters who have become eligible to vote over the last three years being 3 to 1 in favour of remaining in the EU, surely the most sensible option would be a Remain alliance with the multiple pro-Remain parties not putting up a candidate in areas where they can't win in order to avoid splitting the vote?

But no. Party politics is likely to win out and the Remain vote will be split. Effing politicians talk about "national interest" but the reality is they are looking after number one. And it's a big steaming, smelly number one.
Surely it's a number two!!!

3General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 10:09

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
No mention there of democracy, or the 17.4 million leavers, even though, according to your distasteful comment, that so many have died. Its not only the old that die, so maybe you can find out the figures , and prove to us all the wisdom of your remarks?
You also seem to forget to include all those people, Remainers included, who are so tired with the politicians that they want it all to be over, surely that aspect should be included in your summary?

4General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 10:21

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:No mention there of democracy, or the 17.4 million leavers, even though, according to your distasteful comment, that so many have died. Its not only the old that die, so maybe you can find out the figures , and prove to us all the wisdom of your remarks?
You also seem to forget to include all those people, Remainers included, who are so tired with the politicians that they want it all to be over, surely that aspect should be included in your summary?
I'm sorry if you find it distasteful Glos but I'm only reporting a study published by YouGov reported here in the Independent.
This information is also supported by the huge study undertaken by the professor at Strathclyde (can't remember his name but he's on the TV and radio a lot) who concluded that 90% of those who voted in the referendum would vote the same way again, but the demographics have changed re who is eligible to vote now - hence my comments.
What either study didn't consider was those who didn't vote first time around.
As for those who "just want it to be over" - that strapline/mantra has been exposed as a Dominic Cummings tactic to try and railroad through a deal at any cost and less and less people are buying it.

5General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 10:46

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Just realised this should be on Wandering Minds.

6General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 11:33

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:Just realised this should be on Wandering Minds.
Putting the drink down might help!

7General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 11:38

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:No mention there of democracy, or the 17.4 million leavers, even though, according to your distasteful comment, that so many have died. Its not only the old that die, so maybe you can find out the figures , and prove to us all the wisdom of your remarks?
You also seem to forget to include all those people, Remainers included, who are so tired with the politicians that they want it all to be over, surely that aspect should be included in your summary?
I'm sorry if you find it distasteful Glos but I'm only reporting a study published by YouGov reported here in the Independent.
This information is also supported by the huge study undertaken by the professor at Strathclyde (can't remember his name but he's on the TV and radio a lot) who concluded that 90% of those who voted in the referendum would vote the same way again, but the demographics have changed re who is eligible to vote now - hence my comments.
What either study didn't consider was those who didn't vote first time around.
As for those who "just want it to be over" - that strapline/mantra has been exposed as a Dominic Cummings tactic to try and railroad through a deal at any cost and less and less people are buying it.
Fair enough. You are referring to Dr John Curtice, who I find is really good, and usually spot on. I have also heard these comments, but even he says that everything is in the air at the moment Nothing unusual for Brexit.
Re getting younger voters in, there is no time to get a law through before Brexit is resolved, and it does of course have many other connotations with it. Such as, do these same young people need to assume all the responsibilities of adults regards the law, taxes, etc, or is it just a gambit by desperate politicians to use the young for what will be a passing phase?
How was the 'Just want it to be over' proven to be a Dominic Cummings tactic ? It appears to be a statement of fact, just look at how many have said on TV that this is what they want, even quite a few Remainers. Its a fact that cannot be ignored.

8General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 13:20

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Not sure if we're talking at cross-purposes here Glos but just in case....I wasn't talking about "getting younger voters in" in the sense of 16 year olds being allowed to vote in the Scottish Independence Referendum for example, but rather than in the 3 years that have passed since the EU referendum, over a million young people have reached the age of 18 and would therefore be entitled to vote in a General Election for the first time.
And the point I was originally making was that if Boris were to get a general election, the likelihood is that he would fight it on the platform of Brexit - and still trying to claim it's the "will of the people" even though the evidence suggests it is no longer the will of the people.

9General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 13:39

Bollotom2014

Bollotom2014
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Trouble being with that idea, Wanders, is that after any vote there will be hundreds of youngsters under 18 becoming 18 the week after and thus would have been denied an opportunity to vote at the time.
 It really is Hobson's Choice. If there was a renewed vote for 'Remaining' then the identical problem would raise it's head. Just the other side of the argument being ignored by a government not really interested in what the majority of the population think.

10General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 13:54

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Bollotom2014 wrote:Trouble being with that idea, Wanders, is that after any vote there will be hundreds of youngsters under 18 becoming 18 the week after and thus would have been denied an opportunity to vote at the time.
 It really is Hobson's Choice. If there was a renewed vote for 'Remaining' then the identical problem would raise it's head. Just the other side of the argument being ignored by a government not really interested in what the majority of the population think.
It's all relative. There will always be hundreds of folk reaching the age shortly after a given date - I had to wait an extra year for my state pension because my birthday fell a month before an arbitrary deadline. However there are almost 400k kids (not just hundreds) who reach voting age per annum and there have been 3 years since the EU fiasco.
As for a second referendum, if it were to go in favour of remain as expected, it would be a case of "Brexit's what x million wanted then, but this is what y million want now" so let's not waste any more time and money on it - but then people would be wanting a referendum every 3 years - an idea that I don't find problematic if  it was organised properly i.e. every 3 years we have a YouGov poll (which costs nothing and is easier to do) and IF there's evidence of a significant shift in opinion, THEN have a full blown referendum.

11General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 14:13

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@wanderlust wrote:Not sure if we're talking at cross-purposes here Glos but just in case....I wasn't talking about "getting younger voters in" in the sense of 16 year olds being allowed to vote in the Scottish Independence Referendum for example, but rather than in the 3 years that have passed since the EU referendum, over a million young people have reached the age of 18 and would therefore be entitled to vote in a General Election for the first time.
And the point I was originally making was that if Boris were to get a general election, the likelihood is that he would fight it on the platform of Brexit - and still trying to claim it's the "will of the people" even though the evidence suggests it is no longer the will of the people.
Unreal what a load of bollox FFS give it a rest labour and lib dems will get destroyed at the GE.

12General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 14:16

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
On a lighter note that Jo Swinson gives me a boner every time she comes on telly what a cracking pair.

13General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 15:01

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
I've always felt Brexit would be a disaster that the next generation (and possibly the one after) would wind up paying for while those who voted for it would be gone (it's not an attempt to be distasteful, only an acknowledgement that the largest 'Leave' demographic was among the over 65's).

I felt at the time and still do that since this IS an issue that will have such a long term effect on the UK that perhaps it would be wise to actually restrict the eligibilty to vote on it to those under 50. They after all are the ones who will have to live with the real world consequences of this far reaching decision. If there should be a second referendum I believe that's something the Government of the day whomever's it is should seriously consider. And just so you know under this criteria I wouldn't be able to vote either.

14General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 15:30

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:I've always felt Brexit would be a disaster that the next generation (and possibly the one after) would wind up paying for while those who voted for it would be gone (it's not an attempt to be distasteful, only an acknowledgement that the largest 'Leave' demographic was among the over 65's).

I felt at the time and still do that since this IS an issue that will have such a long term effect on the UK that perhaps it would be wise to actually restrict the eligibilty to vote on it to those under 50. They after all are the ones who will have to live with the real world consequences of this far reaching decision. If there should be a second referendum I believe that's something the Government of the day whomever's it is should seriously consider. And just so you know under this criteria I wouldn't be able to vote either.
No disrespect Peter, but this is absolute bollocks. The idea of a vote, any vote, is to see what people, across the whole spectrum wishes. Going down the road you suggest is plain stupid. You are vetting your audience before you ask. How can you get a balanced view by limiting who you ask? It is for this very reason that polls are so unreliable. To take a legal right away from someone, who has paid their dues all their life is most definitely the wrong thing to do. Why don't we limit voting to 30 so that everyone who takes drugs can change the laws so that they dont get charged with an offence. Oh, and in doing so, everyone over the age of 30 carries on paying tax for them to do so.

15General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 15:33

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
The older you get the wiser you get.

16General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 15:51

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
@gloswhite wrote:
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:I've always felt Brexit would be a disaster that the next generation (and possibly the one after) would wind up paying for while those who voted for it would be gone (it's not an attempt to be distasteful, only an acknowledgement that the largest 'Leave' demographic was among the over 65's).

I felt at the time and still do that since this IS an issue that will have such a long term effect on the UK that perhaps it would be wise to actually restrict the eligibilty to vote on it to those under 50. They after all are the ones who will have to live with the real world consequences of this far reaching decision. If there should be a second referendum I believe that's something the Government of the day whomever's it is should seriously consider. And just so you know under this criteria I wouldn't be able to vote either.
No disrespect Peter, but this is absolute bollocks. The idea of a vote, any vote, is to see what people, across the whole spectrum wishes. Going down the road you suggest is plain stupid. You are vetting your audience before you ask. How can you get a balanced view by limiting who you ask? It is for this very reason that polls are so unreliable. To take a legal right away from someone, who has paid their dues all their life is most definitely the wrong thing to do. Why don't we limit voting to 30 so that everyone who takes drugs can change the laws so that they dont get charged with an offence. Oh, and in doing so, everyone over the age of 30 carries on paying tax for them to do so.
On reflection it has to be said this wasn't one of my brighter ideas. Embarassed affraid scratch :facepalm:

But I do feel that a second referendum would be justified if the Conservatives lose the General Election since it's very likely Brexit will be THE number one issue in the campaign. Perhaps we older folks should take a moment to reflect on the fact our decision is going to have a long term effect, one we may well not be around to deal with.

17General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 22:44

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:I've always felt Brexit would be a disaster that the next generation (and possibly the one after) would wind up paying for while those who voted for it would be gone (it's not an attempt to be distasteful, only an acknowledgement that the largest 'Leave' demographic was among the over 65's).

I felt at the time and still do that since this IS an issue that will have such a long term effect on the UK that perhaps it would be wise to actually restrict the eligibilty to vote on it to those under 50. They after all are the ones who will have to live with the real world consequences of this far reaching decision. If there should be a second referendum I believe that's something the Government of the day whomever's it is should seriously consider. And just so you know under this criteria I wouldn't be able to vote either.
No disrespect Peter, but this is absolute bollocks. The idea of a vote, any vote, is to see what people, across the whole spectrum wishes. Going down the road you suggest is plain stupid. You are vetting your audience before you ask. How can you get a balanced view by limiting who you ask? It is for this very reason that polls are so unreliable. To take a legal right away from someone, who has paid their dues all their life is most definitely the wrong thing to do. Why don't we limit voting to 30 so that everyone who takes drugs can change the laws so that they dont get charged with an offence. Oh, and in doing so, everyone over the age of 30 carries on paying tax for them to do so.
On reflection it has to be said this wasn't one of my brighter ideas. Embarassed affraid scratch :facepalm:

But I do feel that a second referendum would be justified if the Conservatives lose the General Election since it's very likely Brexit will be THE number one issue in the campaign. Perhaps we older folks should take a moment to reflect on the fact our decision is going to have a long term effect, one we may well not be around to deal with.
Have to admit Peter, I burst out laughing when I read your first line.
I don't agree with a second referendum as the first one has not been honored yet. 
I made the decision to leave, not for myself, but for future generations. I believe that we will fare better as our own masters rather than as a minor cog in a big machine, where individuality, in whatever sphere will be phased out.

18General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 22:53

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Touching on the age thing. I was at work the other day, (my part-time job), and this chap was spouting on about old people being in the way when he and his wife has to do the shopping at weekends. He seems to think we have all week to do that and should be more considerate. I pointed out that its probably the old uns that keep the shops economy going during the week, and that a little consideration should be shown. He said he didn't mind me doing it as I was still working. Very Happy  I also mentioned that a lot of the elderly go out during the weekends to be amongst people, as they could well be living on their own and needed to see others. Needless to say, he hadn't thought of that.

19General Election Empty Re: General Election on Mon Oct 28 2019, 23:08

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
He must have been a remainer. :biggrin:

20General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 01:03

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Angry Dad wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:Not sure if we're talking at cross-purposes here Glos but just in case....I wasn't talking about "getting younger voters in" in the sense of 16 year olds being allowed to vote in the Scottish Independence Referendum for example, but rather than in the 3 years that have passed since the EU referendum, over a million young people have reached the age of 18 and would therefore be entitled to vote in a General Election for the first time.
And the point I was originally making was that if Boris were to get a general election, the likelihood is that he would fight it on the platform of Brexit - and still trying to claim it's the "will of the people" even though the evidence suggests it is no longer the will of the people.
Unreal what a load of bollox FFS give it a rest labour and lib dems will get destroyed at the GE.
So you reckon that there will actually be a GE? And if so that Boris won't try to make it all about his own political future aka railroading through Breaksit before Murdoch and Mercer etc have him replaced? And that a Lib Dem/Labour/SNP/Plaid Cymru/Green coalition won't happen as a result?

TBH the last one is unlikely since that knob Corbyn is more concerned about his political future rather than the good of the country or even his own party.

21General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 01:12

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Blimey! Only two days before we crash out of Europe!
Hope Boris keeps his promise though and has already picked out his ditch.
Tick tock.....

Meanwhile here are the combined results of 77 different polls carried out during 2019 on "If there was a second referendum to leave the EU how would you vote" Something to think about when talking about "the will of the people" - and what is likely to happen in a GE if Boris decides to fight it on the basis of leaving - it's all to play for.

22General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 10:25

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I admire your persistence WL but sadly you are wasting your time.

Brexiteers are completely immune to facts or reason. They made up their minds based on a combination of outright lies (bendy bananas, Turkey joining the EU, etc), anti foreigner prejudice and racism (EU citizens are net contributors to the exchequer rather than over here for the benefits), a deluded fantasy that they were voting against the establishment (by supporting Boris, Rees-Mogg, etc) and nostalgia for a past that never existed. They won't admit it but curiously can never provide any rational justification for voting leave. They prefer to trot out meaningless slogans like "taking back control" and certainly won't answer any questions you pose.

23General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 11:21

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Corbyn has just signed his suicide note: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50221856

24General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 11:22

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:I admire your persistence WL but sadly you are wasting your time.

Brexiteers are completely immune to facts or reason. They made up their minds based on a combination of outright lies (bendy bananas, Turkey joining the EU, etc), anti foreigner prejudice and racism (EU citizens are net contributors to the exchequer rather than over here for the benefits), a deluded fantasy that they were voting against the establishment (by supporting Boris, Rees-Mogg, etc) and nostalgia for a past that never existed. They won't admit it but curiously can never provide any rational justification for voting leave. They prefer to trot out meaningless slogans like "taking back control" and certainly won't answer any questions you pose.

I'm not trying to influence anyone - as you say and as Prof Curtice showed this is an issue where few people have changed their minds but...I'm just putting it out there to see if anyone else - in either camp - believes wholeheartedly in the media narrative (really?) or has an interest in the tactics being employed by both camps to further their personal goals.
Because in my mind, whilst Brexit will probably be the battle ground in a GE, the real objectives are party-based political control and personal ambition rather than what is best for the economy and the nation as a result, and for the most part, both the Tories and Labour are being incredibly hypocritical.

25General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 11:28

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Unfortunately it now looks like we going to have an election where the only topic will be brexit thus allowing Boris and the Tories to completely ignore the damage their cuts and a decade of austerity have done to the country. Rolling Eyes

Corbyn is a complete idiot and a massive liability.

26General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 11:40

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
Corbyn is a complete idiot and a massive liability.
No shit. Sir Keir is probably the only one who could recapture the middle ground but he won't step up yet and unfortunately Corbyn will only serve to divide and lose because the man is unelectable. And at a time when the Tories are in complete disarray - unforgiveable.
Even worse, he can't see the fact that his popularity rating is so low that he can't win an election outright so would need to form a cross-party coalition to defeat the ERG-controlled Tory party and that someone else should lead that - but there's no chance of him backing down. He should quit before he f***s it up, but he won't.

27General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 11:58

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Corbyn's not going to be doing well in the polls given the party's Brexit position. The country is polarised as leave or remain, Labour have gone down the route of a soft (least damaging) leave - which personally I agree with, but it's not an obvious vote winner with the country so polarised.

28General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 12:01

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Why would someone else lead a cross party coalition with Labour?

29General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 15:25

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Why would someone else lead a cross party coalition with Labour?
So the coalition doesn't get stigmatised by Corbyn who is widely disliked outside the Labour party - and he's even not universally popular within it either. It needs to be led by someone who is acceptable to the masses.

Have to say he's dumber than I thought - as a strategy for success this is suicidal unless he takes a backseat and forms a single issue coalition. Alternatively he could fight on the basis of promising a second referendum as the recent polls show more people want a second referendum rather than election here  - but I guess that opportunity has been missed. He certainly needs to do something to fight back against the Cummings Propaganda machine.
Unless he's got a cunning plan.....

And his logic is all over the place - I thought his objection was based on ruling out leaving without a deal and yet he's capitulated on the basis of the EU granting an extension. On what planet does getting an extension from the EU rule out no deal?

30General Election Empty Re: General Election on Tue Oct 29 2019, 15:43

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
So who fits your criteria of acceptable by the masses? Corbyn's got the largest democratic mandate of any politician in the house of commons at this moment in time. 

Vote share at previous election and multiple elections as Labour leader. He's clearly the logical choice to lead any coalition, whether you like him or not.

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