Brexit Watch

I hope this doesn't affect farmers in this country. Surely it doesn't make sense to be importing meat from the other side of the world when we have a plentiful supply on our own doorstep? Not very environmentally friendly shipping it all over here with the carbon footprint and air miles either is it?

I heard on the radio the deal includes surfboards, so really useful 

Norpig wrote:I hope this doesn't affect farmers in this country. Surely it doesn't make sense to be importing meat from the other side of the world when we have a plentiful supply on our own doorstep? Not very environmentally friendly shipping it all over here with the carbon footprint and air miles either is it?

I heard on the radio the deal includes surfboards, so really useful 

If you live in Cornwall it is lusty!!

Whitesince63 wrote:

If you live in Cornwall it is lusty!!

That'll be Norpig mate.

The farmers are very concerned.
They overwhelmingly voted for Brexit on the back of a promise that the government would support them transitioning away from dependency on EU subsidies and were sold the notion that British people would become the labour force. Add to that the concept that everybody would start to "Buy British" (Robert Maxwell still has a lot to answer for!) and you can understand why, however...
- they lost the EU subsidies - around £3.5 billion a year in CAP payments
- they lost the bulk of their seasonal workers and residential EU workers
- the UK is now more dependent than ever on importing foodstuffs (as we haven't the workforce to produce enough of our own)
- and now they are being threatened with the prospect of even more cheap foreign imports to undercut what we do produce.

The thing is what do they expect will happen? Do they think that Sunak is going to give them the £3.5 billion? He might because he borrows money to throw around as if it never has to be paid back. Do they think that idle Brits are willing to go and pick cabbages in the fields when they can go to college and study design or pursue their dreams of being a pro footballer or "influencer"? Or just sign on with a dodgy leg? Do they think that despite having a massive geographical advantage they can compete for mass market British sales in a global economy?

They had a very nice little niche and a relatively trouble-free existence and they blew it so I have no sympathy for them. Or the fishermen for that matter.

Bring on the florescent yellow chlorinated chickens.

Been a bad few days for the Brexiteers.

First of all there was Penny Mordaunt travelling the USA "state by state" desperate for a trade deal and offering to roll over for the US agri-market - which hasn't played well over here - "prostituting our country" according to some papers. If you want a good cringe check out her "speech to the Americans" in Atlanta.

This was shortly followed by signing the suicidal Australian trade deal - a deal so bad for the UK it matches the NZ deal already concluded.

Then the government rolled over on the EU judges role in the NI protocol discussions - another U turn to go with accepting that Article 16 won't be triggered despite the hollow threats. Bizarrely, Frost - Mr Brexit himself - actually admitted that membership of the single market is worth £1500 per annum to most people.

Last week there were reports that there was evidence of class A drug use in the House of Commons - unsurprising for a government that once proposed building a physical bridge to Northern Ireland - but I'm starting to wonder just how stoned you have to be to f*** over the people that voted for Boris and Brexit so badly?

Apparently Frost is the 47th Brexit-related ministerial resignation in the last 5 years.

And the in-fighting is growing:

Brexiteer Steve Baker removes Nadine Dorries for ‘Brexit hero’ claim

Dorries was removed from the 100-strong Tory Whatsapp group after saying “the hero is the prime minister who delivered Brexit’.
“I’m aware as someone said today that regicide is in the DNA of the Conservative party, but a bit of loyalty to the person who won an 83 majority and delivered Brexit wouldn’t go amiss,” she added.

Former chair of pro-Brexit European Research Group Steve Baker immediately removed Dorries from the group, adding: “Enough is enough”, before another MP added it was “about time”.
Meanwhile, voters from across the political spectrum are unimpressed by Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal as its ramifications become clear, according to a new study.

Both Brexiteers and Remainers are now more likely to say they believe Britain got a bad deal with the EU than in January, according to the National Centre for Social Research (NatCen).
The study revealed that while 21 per cent of people thought the UK got a good deal in January, the figure dropped to only 12 per cent in August.

So now only 12%?
TBH I haven't met a single one personally - and I live in a pro-Brexit area.

Lusty, I don’t know anybody, Leaver or Remainer, who thought we got a good deal leaving the EU but it was the best we could get to exit asap. We did however negotiate a contract that could be renegotiated in good faith between both sides but it has been perfectly clear that the EU never had any intention of doing that, instead attempting to punish us at every opportunity as a signal to others who might have similar thoughts on leaving. 

I really do find it hard to understand people who continually see the EU position and not our own governments, just so they can say “I told you so.” We’re out and it’s essential that we ensure we take advantage of every opportunity the new freedoms allow us instead of being constantly restrained by a bunch of self satisfied bureaucrats in Brussels. If we allow that we will never see any benefits, just the negatives that Brussels wants us to. The argument about leaving or staying is over now and no amount of moaning and complaining is going to change that. If you were asked yourself to replace Lord Frost and pick up the negotiations, would you just cave in to the EU, or would you look where we are now, out of the EU and ensure you got the best deal for Britain? I suspect if you are a true Brit, you would negotiate hard for our interests. 

Leaving was always going to be difficult after encumbering ourselves into the bloc for over 50 years but had the EU seen it as a decision made by the people of this country, just as the one in 73 was to stay in and which is perfectly within our rights under EU rules, accepted it and negotiated fairly, it could have been a lot easier. Surely you must see how completely intransigent the EU have been in negotiations when 100% of our laws and standards were completely in line with those of the EU. In particular, their weaponisation of the Irish situation is sickening and hugely damaging for the ordinary people living there, as well as the UK generally. So yes, I fully agree with you that Brexit is a complete mess at the moment but I actually believe much of that is the incompetence of Johnson in taking a much firmer line with the EU, who expect him to capitulate on everything, as he has done so far. Personally, I’d like to see the back of Johnston as much as you would so that we can get a proper Tory in, one who will not only take a firmer line with the EU but reign in the ridiculous rush to a Green agenda, firm up our borders and get back to low taxes and higher growth.

Whitesince63 wrote:Lusty, I don’t know anybody, Leaver or Remainer, who thought we got a good deal leaving the EU but it was the best we could get to exit asap. We did however negotiate a contract that could be renegotiated in good faith between both sides but it has been perfectly clear that the EU never had any intention of doing that, instead attempting to punish us at every opportunity as a signal to others who might have similar thoughts on leaving. 

I really do find it hard to understand people who continually see the EU position and not our own governments, just so they can say “I told you so.” We’re out and it’s essential that we ensure we take advantage of every opportunity the new freedoms allow us instead of being constantly restrained by a bunch of self satisfied bureaucrats in Brussels. If we allow that we will never see any benefits, just the negatives that Brussels wants us to. The argument about leaving or staying is over now and no amount of moaning and complaining is going to change that. If you were asked yourself to replace Lord Frost and pick up the negotiations, would you just cave in to the EU, or would you look where we are now, out of the EU and ensure you got the best deal for Britain? I suspect if you are a true Brit, you would negotiate hard for our interests. 

Leaving was always going to be difficult after encumbering ourselves into the bloc for over 50 years but had the EU seen it as a decision made by the people of this country, just as the one in 73 was to stay in and which is perfectly within our rights under EU rules, accepted it and negotiated fairly, it could have been a lot easier. Surely you must see how completely intransigent the EU have been in negotiations when 100% of our laws and standards were completely in line with those of the EU. In particular, their weaponisation of the Irish situation is sickening and hugely damaging for the ordinary people living there, as well as the UK generally. So yes, I fully agree with you that Brexit is a complete mess at the moment but I actually believe much of that is the incompetence of Johnson in taking a much firmer line with the EU, who expect him to capitulate on everything, as he has done so far. Personally, I’d like to see the back of Johnston as much as you would so that we can get a proper Tory in, one who will not only take a firmer line with the EU but reign in the ridiculous rush to a Green agenda, firm up our borders and get back to low taxes and higher growth.

Don't go blaming the EU White.
I honestly don't see how the EU have done anything other than stand up for their legitimate interests in the negotiations - if anything it has been us Brits that have tried to move the goalposts.
For example our government tried (unsuccessfully) to have our lawyers decide on the protocol arrangements without the EU being lawyered up too. How is that fair?
Then we tried dictating to them how the fishing rights would be granted and other terms of trade without them having a say. Ridiculous.
We gave the EU assurances on a whole bunch of issues and then reneged on them.

To me Brexit has been managed like a divorce where our side was promised it would get to keep the house, the car and the money - and then be free to have affairs with whoever we liked - all before it even got to court - and then blaming the other side when they say they want their share. Suddenly we weren't such an attractive proposition to those we wanted to get in bed.

I know the government have been spinning lies about the EU "punishing" us but that's just a cover up for the fact that it was always going to be a tough negotiation and even harder to set up favourable new deals - something that they failed to mention when they were selling us the idea back in 2016.

What was it they said at the time? Falling off a log?
I think what they meant to say was falling off a cliff - in slow motion.

There’s just no point trying to reason with you is there Lusty? The agreement that Boris and Lord Frost were stuck to negotiate on was the original Treason May one, which gave them little room for manoeuvre within the timescales they had. It’s crap but it was believed that rather than scrap it and start again, even if that was possible, since we were totally in line with the EU, negotiations on certain points could be held ongoing.

I fully accept that the EU have every right to look after their own interests but if you seriously believe that they’re playing fair here you’re misguided. How come that 20% of all EU custom checks are carried out on the Irish border when the population of N Ireland is only 0.5% of the total for the EU. As for fishing. These are now UK waters, we don’t have to let anyone fish them if we don’t want but obviously we’ve tried to accommodate EU vessels at the expense of our own, yet even that isn’t good enough for them.

I’m afraid Lusty, that you’re just totally opposed to seeing, or even looking for any benefits available from Brexit, or any of the failings of the EU, which is a great shame. No contract or agreement is indefinite and certainly the Irish Protocol was always open to further negotiation as part of its creation and whilst I don’t in any way deny the right of the EU to put their own interests first, I do expect them to accept and understand that we have now left the EU and intend to look after our own affairs. We want a friendly and harmonious relationship with Europe but it isn’t going to happen if the EU continue with their obvious attempts to punish us at every opportunity.

Whitesince63 wrote:There’s just no point trying to reason with you is there Lusty? The agreement that Boris and Lord Frost were stuck to negotiate on was the original Treason May one, which gave them little room for manoeuvre within the timescales they had. It’s crap but it was believed that rather than scrap it and start again, even if that was possible, since we were totally in line with the EU, negotiations on certain points could be held ongoing.

I fully accept that the EU have every right to look after their own interests but if you seriously believe that they’re playing fair here you’re misguided. How come that 20% of all EU custom checks are carried out on the Irish border when the population of N Ireland is only 0.5% of the total for the EU. As for fishing. These are now UK waters, we don’t have to let anyone fish them if we don’t want but obviously we’ve tried to accommodate EU vessels at the expense of our own, yet even that isn’t good enough for them.

I’m afraid Lusty, that you’re just totally opposed to seeing, or even looking for any benefits available from Brexit, or any of the failings of the EU, which is a great shame. No contract or agreement is indefinite and certainly the Irish Protocol was always open to further negotiation as part of its creation and whilst I don’t in any way deny the right of the EU to put their own interests first, I do expect them to accept and understand that we have now left the EU and intend to look after our own affairs. We want a friendly and harmonious relationship with Europe but it isn’t going to happen if the EU continue with their obvious attempts to punish us at every opportunity.

"Reason" with me?
Reasoning involves discussing facts not propaganda/Tory political spin.

For example do you know that the UK fleet lands 13% of it's total catch from Irish, French and Danish waters and a further 9% from (non EU) Norwegian waters? It's a two way street White.

I am very open to looking at any benefits available from Brexit but I'm still waiting to hear what they might be.

As mentioned previously I have yet to hear of any benefits of Brexit and whenever I ask ardent Brexiteers about them all I hear is cloud cuckoo land.
A few facts wouldn't go amiss if I was ever to be convinced that the UK is better off outside the EU. And they would have to be pretty spectacular to offset everything we've lost.

Liz Truss has always struck me as being incredibly naive, taking on this brief certainly fits with that. Suspect she won't be 'Tory party members most popular MP' for much longer.

wanderlust wrote:
"Reason" with me?
Reasoning involves discussing facts not propaganda/Tory political spin.

For example do you know that the UK fleet lands 13% of it's total catch from Irish, French and Danish waters and a further 9% from (non EU) Norwegian waters? It's a two way street White.

I am very open to looking at any benefits available from Brexit but I'm still waiting to hear what they might be.

As mentioned previously I have yet to hear of any benefits of Brexit and whenever I ask ardent Brexiteers about them all I hear is cloud cuckoo land.
A few facts wouldn't go amiss if I was ever to be convinced that the UK is better off outside the EU. And they would have to be pretty spectacular to offset everything we've lost.

The benefit of Brexit lusty is the opportunity to run our country as we see fit, unbridled by the constraints of the EU. Membership of the EU over the last 50 years has decimated our farming industry, our fishing industry, our manufacturing industry and had a devastating effect on our immigration numbers. Not only has it forced down wages with cheap imported labour but discouraged training of our own population. 

All of these areas are now opening opportunities for UK businesses to expand and for entrepreneurs to develop new companies in growth areas in which we can excel. In many ways, the supply chain problems are actually making companies source product closer to home which can only help us going forward.

I can’t deny the benefits aren’t flowing yet but at least the government now has the opportunity to look further afield for deals, which it is making efforts to do. Obviously the pandemic has taken attention away from Brexit but with any luck, Omicron won’t turn out to be the damaging strain feared and 2022 will see our fortunes improve. It’s going to take time to readjust so let’s see where we are in another 50 years??

Whitesince63 wrote:

The benefit of Brexit lusty is the opportunity to run our country as we see fit, unbridled by the constraints of the EU.

Just exactly how is that a benefit White?

Last time we did it we we led ourselves to the verge of bankruptcy

You might recall that financial problems in the 70’s were mainly caused by unionisation destroying business until thankfully Maggie came in and turned things round. We were actually in the EU at that time. Also the Credit Crunch of 2008/9, also under a Labour Government, occurred whilst members of the EU, whilst the never had it so good era after the war and was before we joined the wretched EU, so I’m interested to hear more explanation of your point about bankruptcy.

It’s pretty obvious that you still carry heavy prejudices regarding Brexit and I don’t actually think that anything I say is going to change that. All I would say is, that if other people who are as negative and resistant to change as you are continue that way, we never will achieve any of the potential benefits. Thankfully the majority aren’t like that and will eventually drag you along with them. It may of course all end in tears, nobody knows but given this country’s history over the centuries, my money is on us succeeding now we’re free again, despite the naysayers like yourself.

Whitesince63 wrote:You might recall that financial problems in the 70’s were mainly caused by unionisation destroying business until thankfully Maggie came in and turned things round. We were actually in the EU at that time. Also the Credit Crunch of 2008/9, also under a Labour Government, occurred whilst members of the EU, whilst the never had it so good era after the war and was before we joined the wretched EU, so I’m interested to hear more explanation of your point about bankruptcy.

It’s pretty obvious that you still carry heavy prejudices regarding Brexit and I don’t actually think that anything I say is going to change that. All I would say is, that if other people who are as negative and resistant to change as you are continue that way, we never will achieve any of the potential benefits. Thankfully the majority aren’t like that and will eventually drag you along with them. It may of course all end in tears, nobody knows but given this country’s history over the centuries, my money is on us succeeding now we’re free again, despite the naysayers like yourself.

That's one view. Another is that when we joined on the first of January 1973 led by the Conservatives under Ted Heath we had already suffered year on year decline so when the oil crisis struck that year we plunged into financial decline that took 3 years to get us back to where we were beforehand. Can't blame the Tories for the oil crisis as it was global but it hit us hard as we were already weak.
Interesting to note that the crisis at it's worst (strikes included) led to a 3.9% decrease in GDP. Today's government's own figures reckon the impact of Brexit will be worse than that at just over 4%.

As for curtailing the unions power - that was actually a Labour initiative first designed by Barbara Castle - "In Place of Strife" - that split the Labour movement by alienating the unions and opening the door for the Tories who then plagiarised it's contents in several subsequent Acts - and eventually Thatcher claimed the ideology as her own - although the reality was somewhat different.

There is only one history, but many interpretations

You should do stand up Lusty if you believe for one minute that Barbara Castle would ever have been allowed to impose any of the things Maggie did. Anybody with half a brain could see the unions needed curtailing, even the Labour Party but suggesting Maggie plagiarised BC is just ridiculous. Knowing something needs to be done is a million miles from actually doing it and Labour would never have got away with it, nor had the balls to do it. Not a chance. 

It’s also a bit disingenuous of you to compare an actual 3.9% GDP decrease to a projected one post Brexit of 4%, let’s at least wait until we know shall we? You are right though about history having many interpretations and clearly yours will never match mine will they?

It's because this government is incredibly stupid White.

For example one of the key planks of Brexit was that the UK would become world class in science and innovation - but now they are contemplating throwing it all away by using UK participation in the £100 billion European research programme - the world's biggest international science funding programme - as a bargaining chip in the Northern Ireland negotiations - see here.

Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust, told BBC News that ''losing the agreement on UK participation in the world's biggest international science funding programme at this stage, when it has already been negotiated and is ready to sign, would be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".

FWIW Barbara Castle tried very hard to implement her ideas but a) she wasn't PM b) it was years earlier when unions still had massive power and influence so it was a much bigger task than Thatcher faced - but her work led to three Trades Union Acts of Parliament that considerably "softened them up" making Thatcher's job much easier as they were a shadow of what they once were by the time she came along and c) in trying to implement her ideas she split the Labour party which allowed the Tories power in the first place.

Lady Castle was a fantastic innovator and reformer - it's hard to imagine nowadays but during her tenure as Minister for Transport she introduced the national speed limit, breathalysers and compulsory seat belts all of which we take for granted nowadays. Didn't particularly like her but you have to respect the woman. Thatcher obviously did as she plagiarised her ideas.

This notion that the UK can be better off by going it alone is totally misguided, if the efforts of this government are anything to go by. What a mess they are making of things! We are friendless and isolated.

It's obvious that the only way mankind can prosper is by joining forces and sharing. (eg security, intelligence, the vaccines, climate etc)

 In our individual lives, we resolve problems by communicating and pulling together rather than distancing ourselves. 

The same is true for each nation.

okocha wrote:This notion that the UK can be better off by going it alone is totally misguided, if the efforts of this government are anything to go by. What a mess they are making of things! We are friendless and isolated.

It's obvious that the only way mankind can prosper is by joining forces and sharing. (eg security, intelligence, the vaccines, climate etc)

 In our individual lives, we resolve problems by communicating and pulling together rather than distancing ourselves. 

The same is true for each nation.

Like China for instance...

okocha wrote:This notion that the UK can be better off by going it alone is totally misguided, if the efforts of this government are anything to go by. What a mess they are making of things! We are friendless and isolated.

It's obvious that the only way mankind can prosper is by joining forces and sharing. (eg security, intelligence, the vaccines, climate etc)

 In our individual lives, we resolve problems by communicating and pulling together rather than distancing ourselves. 

The same is true for each nation.

Oko, the only one distancing themselves is the EU, who just refuse to accept that we don’t want to be part of their bureaucratic project. We’ve said constantly that whilst we don’t want to continue along their Federal Europe position, we want to be best of friends in every way possible. It is the EU who are showing complete intransigence in their dealings with us, purely to discourage any other members from leaving. How can you just continually deny and ignore that?

It isn’t necessary for the UK to be part of the EU project to give support to all the areas you mentioned. The only ones refusing to share are the EU and if that reduces security and intelligence in the process, surely that is a situation the EU can easily resolve. Again, I can only wonder why you always consider the UK is wrong and the EU is blameless?

wanderlust wrote:It's because this government is incredibly stupid White.

For example one of the key planks of Brexit was that the UK would become world class in science and innovation - but now they are contemplating throwing it all away by using UK participation in the £100 billion European research programme - the world's biggest international science funding programme - as a bargaining chip in the Northern Ireland negotiations - see here.

Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust, told BBC News that ''losing the agreement on UK participation in the world's biggest international science funding programme at this stage, when it has already been negotiated and is ready to sign, would be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory".

FWIW Barbara Castle tried very hard to implement her ideas but a) she wasn't PM b) it was years earlier when unions still had massive power and influence so it was a much bigger task than Thatcher faced - but her work led to three Trades Union Acts of Parliament that considerably "softened them up" making Thatcher's job much easier as they were a shadow of what they once were by the time she came along and c) in trying to implement her ideas she split the Labour party which allowed the Tories power in the first place.

Lady Castle was a fantastic innovator and reformer - it's hard to imagine nowadays but during her tenure as Minister for Transport she introduced the national speed limit, breathalysers and compulsory seat belts all of which we take for granted nowadays. Didn't particularly like her but you have to respect the woman. Thatcher obviously did as she plagiarised her ideas.

Just yet another attempt to exclude the UK lusty but one that the EU will lose from, not ourselves in my opinion. The very fact that it’s an EU project consigns it to failure, as every other has. The EU thinks itself some kind of leader when in fact it doesn’t have one major technology leader. Google, Facebook, Netflix, Twitter, Amazon, Apple, Samsung. The list goes on yet none, absolutely zero have come from Europe. Ask yourself why. The EU has totally stifled enterprise and entrepreneurial ability in favour of big company globalisation and their regulations and red tape will continue to strangle anything that threatens them. Outside we can back all those businesses as we are starting to do. Leave the EU to fester whilst we grow.