Brexit Watch

wanderlust wrote:I think the bigger concern is the move to replace EU regulations with unchallengeable Diktat as flagged up in this article.

It is another ominous step away from democracy and towards totalitarianism.

The article you quote, Wander, is very significant and worrying for all who value democracy. It confirms what seems to lie at the root of why Johnson became so enthusiastic about getting Brexit done.

He has seemed to be equally enthusiastic about waiting for Gray's report (he may be less so now that he has it!) almost as if he knew it would give him some breathing space and a chance to rally the troops, which he has immediately tried to do. It's a shame he doesn't worry more about the feelings of his citizens than about the concerns of his own ministers.

And now he is enthusiastic about waiting for the police to act, perhaps because he knows how long it will take the Met to arrive at its conclusions.....again offering him time to put into place more of his plans to offset his blunders and insensitive lack of care so far.....and to create new headlines that distract and cool the anger of his backbenchers and the public.  Time is a healer. Power corrupts.

okocha wrote:
The article you quote, Wander, is very significant and worrying for all who value democracy. It confirms what seems to lie at the root of why Johnson became so enthusiastic about getting Brexit done.

He has seemed to be equally enthusiastic about waiting for Gray's report (he may be less so now that he has it!) almost as if he knew it would give him some breathing space and a chance to rally the troops, which he has immediately tried to do. It's a shame he doesn't worry more about the feelings of his citizens than about the concerns of his own ministers.

And now he is enthusiastic about waiting for the police to act, perhaps because he knows how long it will take the Met to arrive at its conclusions.....again offering him time to put into place more of his plans to offset his blunders and insensitive lack of care so far.....and to create new headlines that distract and cool the anger of his backbenchers and the public.  Time is a healer. Power corrupts.

Many people aren't too bothered about the House of Lords being cut out of the equation in terms of scrutiny and oversight although I personally feel they've been OK and tempering the excesses of governments on both sides -  however the idea of giving a free pass to any majority government to wave through any legislation they please is a bit scary and more reminiscent of totalitarianism than democracy. Worse still, as governments change, parliament will be bogged down with undoing what their predecessors did - which already happens to some extent - but this would just tie a bigger anchor to retard progress.

Seems it is all kicking off in NI over the Brexit checks?

NI Protocol: Irish Sea border checks to end at midnight

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-60236169

Sluffy wrote:Seems it is all kicking off in NI over the Brexit checks?

NI Protocol: Irish Sea border checks to end at midnight

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-60236169

Yes, this will definitely ruffle a few feathers but we’ll done to the DUP for testing Westminster and the EU. If this goes ahead will the EU really put checks on the border with Eire? Sometimes you need a catalyst to force sides to come to an agreement so let’s hope this can be done because failure could cause problems we don’t want to contemplate.

Whitesince63 wrote:
Yes, this will definitely ruffle a few feathers but we’ll done to the DUP for testing Westminster and the EU. If this goes ahead will the EU really put checks on the border with Eire? Sometimes you need a catalyst to force sides to come to an agreement so let’s hope this can be done because failure could cause problems we don’t want to contemplate.

I would imagine the government will be very pleased about this as it's a move they would have loved to have made but with the DUP taking the action it gives them deniable plausibility. I'm not suggesting that they did it at the government's behest but the thought has crossed my mind.
We'll see what happens to our exports when the EU retaliate, but it's clear from the manufacturer's response that they are very concerned .

wanderlust wrote:
I would imagine the government will be very pleased about this as it's a move they would have loved to have made but with the DUP taking the action it gives them deniable plausibility. I'm not suggesting that they did it at the government's behest but the thought has crossed my mind.
We'll see what happens to our exports when the EU retaliate, but it's clear from the manufacturer's response that they are very concerned .

This is an interesting perspective from the Telegraph.

The government is obviously denying any collusion in breaking international law as per deniable plausibility mentioned above (although I'm sure the USA will see through it) Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis was asked if it was a "stitch-up by the government" and he said it was all down to the DUP.

However it turns out that the DUP are lagging 8% behind Sinn Fein in the polls with elections coming up and Sinn Fein have been focusing on domestic issues like health, jobs, housing etc - but if Givan resigns it will effectively make the elections all about the NI Protocol rather than the issues that the DUP are weak on - so clearly they also benefit from the move as things stand.

This politically-motivated move will incur the wrath of both the EU and the USA so it will be interesting to see how things develop.

There has to be a resolution at some point on NI Lusty and so far it’s all been talk. Of course we know that the EU will drag this on for as long as possible both to cause tension between Westminster and Stormont as well as benefit from imports from the South into the North and will always play the “You signed the deal” card but that completely goes against the spirit of the agreement which allowed for negotiation in good faith. So far they’ve showed zero of that. 

I’m not sure it was in collaboration with the UK Government, more in frustration with it. At the end of the day NI is part of the UK and it’s ridiculous that they should be still held within the EU restrictions. I’m sure the EU are hoping that a border poll will result which they’d hope to win and unite Ireland but it won’t happen without massive disruption and violence resurfacing. Nobody wants that so let’s hope that if anything this brings people to the table to resolve outstanding issues and returns NI under the full control of the UK again?

Is the EU worse off as a result of the UK leaving?

Apparently the Danish and the Hungarians think so. And the Brits.

Yougov dipped its toe into international opinion with this study across 10 nations that gives an interesting, if inconclusive view on the impact of Brexit on the EU.

Whitesince63 wrote:

Taxation and VAT? D’er..

Spain cut VAT on Gas and Electricity to 10% (from 21%) to help deal with the price increase. France force EDF to take an £8.4 billion hit to hold price rises to just 4%.

Our government announce a £200 LOAN, the day after announcing a bankers tax cut.

The problem for working people in this country was never the EU, it’s the set of grifters and cheats who’ve duped you into voting for them Whites. Time to wake up.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

France force EDF to take an £8.4 billion hit to hold price rises to just 4%.

TBF the French Government didn't have to do much "forcing" - Electricite De France is owned by the state.

Anyway they'll get their money back from us when they build, own and operate Sizewell C.

Plus inflation in France is 2.4 % lower than inflation in the UK so they don't have to do as much to offset potential hardship.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Spain cut VAT on Gas and Electricity to 10% (from 21%) to help deal with the price increase. France force EDF to take an £8.4 billion hit to hold price rises to just 4%.

Our government announce a £200 LOAN, the day after announcing a bankers tax cut.

The problem for working people in this country was never the EU, it’s the set of grifters and cheats who’ve duped you into voting for them Whites. Time to wake up.

Maybe it’s time you woke up Troy. VAT in Spain still at 10% and France essentially supporting energy just as we are doing. Give up mate you just don’t get it do you? ‍

‘Just as we are doing’ - tell me what price rise is expected on energy in the UK vs France or Spain?

Boris promised to cut VAT on gas and electricity in the Brexit campaign - (something he could have done without leaving the EU) - and now is doing nothing about it.

Ordinary people pay through the nose while Oil and Gas companies continue to make enormous profits at our expense.

It’s a political choice the government are making and suckers like you allow them to.

You know even less about oil and gas companies than you do about politics Troy so please give it a break on how terrible the likes of Shell are for making a profit. Isn’t that what businesses are supposed to do and don’t you think they pay huge amounts of tax on it? Do you have any conception of what it costs to drill in places like the North Sea or the Gulf and were you calling for them to be given a tax hand out last year when they lost £17b? No, thought not. In Shell and BP we have two of the worlds biggest, best and most successful world class companies, who are both listed here and pay tax here unlike reprehensible outfits like Amazon, Facebook and Google, or McDonalds, Starbucks and others who cough up little or none of their earnings in tax. Stop whinging about things you know nothing about it only makes you look stupid and the sucker you are my friend.

Ooof you've made yourself look like an arse there, how much tax did Shell pay in the UK last year Whites?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Ooof you've made yourself look like an arse there, how much tax did Shell pay in the UK last year Whites?

Dunno but this was their 2018 contribution to our economy.

Hang on just found
this.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Ooof you've made yourself look like an arse there, how much tax did Shell pay in the UK last year Whites?

Not really Troy but of course until this year when they moved their HQ and all operations to the U.K. they were previously paying tax in the Netherlands. 2019 they paid $7.8 worldwide in income tax plus $5.9 in further royalties. They didn’t pay any tax in the U.K. because of £118m of relief due to investment in the North Sea and the decommissioning cost of old oil rigs.

As I said, the investment cost of O&G companies is huge and of course they are now spending billions on their renewables investment. Due to Covid their tax payments will obviously be minimal since last year they lost £17b, hence my question, should we have given them a credit? Windfall taxes are completely counter productive in the circumstances. Of course they’re making money with the energy prices so high but taking it off them when they do well is just crazy. You also need to consider that their North Sea earnings are minimal when compared to worldwide turnover. Now who’s looking an arse??

Still you Whites, what have their dividend payments been doing throughout that time? And your sat here going on about how tricky it is for them to drill in the North Sea? Give over mate, it's the same story from you lot every single time, stop being vague and be specific why exactly can a company posting record quarterly profits not increase the tax they pay given the crisis?

Cut, that’s what their dividends have done, as well as their share price. What is it you don’t understand? Why should any company pay tax they aren’t required to. Shell like any other company is owned by its shareholders, who have invested their own money into a business to get a return, including the pension funds that you and thousands of others pay into. They aren’t a charity and as I’ve already pointed out, pay a serious amount of tax on earnings, as they are required to, so why should they be expected to pay more when they have a good year? They should instead pay out any extra profit to shareholders, just as they are doing since they are the ones risking their own savings. It’s called capitalism and of course you won’t like that will you? It’s the governments job to run the economy and if they cock it up, as this one has on energy, why should private companies be penalised and have to bale them out?

Nobody’s suggesting Shell should volunteer to pay more tax, that’s the governments job.

Why should they pay? Because they are the ones making huge profits as a result of this crisis at the expense of the tax payer - the balance is entirely wrong.

They’ve had a record breaking first quarter, and the consumer is set for record breaking price increases. It’s up to the government to redress that balance - but they choose to side with big business every time.

What exactly is your solution?

My solution? Simple, firstly increase the extraction of our own oil and gas, pass the licenses to allow companies to frack for gas. Open up the necessary coal mines to allow essential industries like steel and cement to produce good without importing it. We live on islands which allow us to be completely self sufficient without having to rely on imports.

I know you don’t like Brexit but free from the restrictions of the EU, we have the opportunity to completely reinvigorate our manufacturing and intellectual sectors. We are lucky to live in arguably the most innovative and entrepreneurial country in the world, including a finance structure more than happy to invest in new industries. Globalisation is on the wane, which is why I fear most for the EU, as countries rediscover the reality that producing goods close to home is not only greener but also more efficient. We have one of the most developed distribution set ups in the world with which to service and supply new industries created here. 

Take green energy. I’m sure everybody agrees on the need to move towards renewables but surely it is more sensible to produce the structures needed here, rather than import them from the likes of China? We need the government to invest heavily to support such industries and with the engineering strength we have, it can be done quickly. We can produce much more of our own food, including products once considered seasonal like salads using modern methods and greenhouse technology. Fruit, vegetables and farming generally can be huge areas of growth and why are we importing 95% of our processed potato goods like chips and roasts from a Belgian company? It’s madness when it can be produced here. At the moment, companies are strangled by red tape and regulations, much of which can now be burnt and I’m not talking about lowering standards. Quite the reverse in fact as we should have standards that others have to match on employment and workers rights laws as well as animal welfare.

The government needs to have a proper long term plan to invest in these industries by cutting both taxes and regulations to allow investors and entrepreneurs to benefit, creating new well paid jobs as well as extra revenue to spend on the schools and hospitals we need. As I said, it’s called capitalism. At the moment we might as well have a real Labour government because that’s what this bunch of non Tories are. Until there’s a concerted move back to the right of centre this country’s going nowhere and if Boris continues to waste the biggest majority since Maggie, that’s the reason he should be binned, not because of cake and wine.