When tax is too taxing.

@Sluffy wrote:

@MartinBWFC wrote:Fuck off with your non BWFC football shit 10 bob, custard or any other names you go by. there's other places to post your absolute shite.

No need for the abuse Martin.

Just for you I've moved the thread to where Bob (and anyone else) are allowed to post about whatever he/they want.

If you don't like Bob or what he posts then don't read it.

Simple as that really.

Lets treat this as a diplomatic move on your part, Sluffy, but there are connections between BWFC and tax avoidance through former players, three former managers and the present Assistant Manager.

The film schemes involved are generally regarded as being at the more aggressive end of the tax avoidance spectrum and some of those who chose to go down this road got their fingers well and truly burned. Gary Megson, Owen Coyle and Phil Parkinson may all have had their detractors but they, at least, were not amongst those intent on personal gain at the expense of the Exchequer and therefore health, education and security.

Dale Vince's avoidance takes a different path but the sums involved are very substantial. This, of course, is the man who threatened to liquidate BWFC and played a big part  in what many described as 'dragging the club's name through the mud'. Some may think that unimportant, I don't.

You may remember, Sluffy, me suggesting that you took a look at the balance sheet of the Ecotricity Group. If you had done so, you might have noticed that its reported reserves consisted almost entirely of an upward revaluation of assets in 2013 when the group was reporting profits.

But for the last three years its reported nothing but losses and big ones at that whilst DV appears to have continued his previous practice of drawing out millions in interest free loans whilst others are tasked with signing off the balance sheets.

Dale Vince is, of course, known as a big donor to the Labour Party and therefore unlikely to get much sympathy from the present government. But I think its almost certainly the reason that he does not get the criticism he deserves on here and on WW and the reason for the mindless comments of nitwits.

No one gives a fuck Ten Bob, it's boring.

@Ten Bobsworth wrote:Lets treat this as a diplomatic move on your part, Sluffy, but there are connections between BWFC and tax avoidance through former players, three former managers and the present Assistant Manager.

The film schemes involved are generally regarded as being at the more aggressive end of the tax avoidance spectrum and some of those who chose to go down this road got their fingers well and truly burned. Gary Megson, Owen Coyle and Phil Parkinson may all have had their detractors but they, at least, were not amongst those intent on personal gain at the expense of the Exchequer and therefore health, education and security.

Dale Vince's avoidance takes a different path but the sums involved are very substantial. This, of course, is the man who threatened to liquidate BWFC and played a big part  in what many described as 'dragging the club's name through the mud'. Some may think that unimportant, I don't.

You may remember, Sluffy, me suggesting that you took a look at the balance sheet of the Ecotricity Group. If you had done so, you might have noticed that its reported reserves consisted almost entirely of an upward revaluation of assets in 2013 when the group was reporting profits.

But for the last three years its reported nothing but losses and big ones at that whilst DV appears to have continued his previous practice of drawing out millions in interest free loans whilst others are tasked with signing off the balance sheets.

Dale Vince is, of course, known as a big donor to the Labour Party and therefore unlikely to get much sympathy from the present government. But I think its almost certainly the reason that he does not get the criticism he deserves on here and on WW and the reason for the mindless comments of nitwits.

Yes it was completely a diplomatic move on my part to attempt to stop the unnecessary and unwarranted personal abuse. People may not like you posting what you do but they have no right whatsoever to express their views in such a manner.

As you say there is a link to some of the good and great Bolton Wanderers players and managers/coaching staff but I think you will agree the tax avoidance scheme in question was not specifically designed for them nor indeed were they majority participants in it.

I had no issue that the thread was originally posted in the BWFC part of the board and still hadn't until the unwarranted abuse - hence why I simply moved it, being the lesser of two evils.

As for Vince I don't recall him being the 'darling' of the Nuts posters at the time (nor since) but just another stick to beat Anderson with.

I have personally pointed out since on here (maybe even Wways as well - I can't recall) that Vince behaviour was completely at odds with that of Norwich (in respect of Remi Matthews) who were in exactly the same position at the time - and which was sorted out amicably to both sides satisfaction merely days later.

It did seem that Dale was on a mission (no one ever explained his links to the ST and his donation to them???) and in the end Vince lost out by £750k difference in transfer fees from the £1m we would have had to pay compared to the £250k he eventually sold him for.

My recollection was that Vince never actually threatened to liquidate us and that his threat was to put us into Administration if we didn't pay the £1m on demand and that it was KA who countered his bluff by saying he was a secured creditor and he wouldn't lose out if Vince pushed for Administration and that led to liquidation of the club.

In retrospect now, that was clearly either wishful thinking or a bluff from KA as it turned out that KA was not a secured creditor for as much as he thought/believed(?) he was.

As a man who clearly knows how to 'play' the business world and has clearly demonstrated this ability as such, my money his on him knowing he probably wasn't as 'secured' as he made out to Vince and simply out bluffed him.

Whatever the case it is water under the bridge and most of us, including myself have moved on from him.

I don't have any doubt that Vince has taken far more money out of his business in questionable ways than anything like the masses claimed Anderson was doing (or even did - he's still not be charged or sanctioned with anything, even though the books have long since been gone through by an agent of the court).

I can see and have sympathy for your view of Vince but it certainly isn't reciprocated by most on here mainly because he's no longer of relevance to us anymore.

You have every right to continue to highlight Vince in the same way Bonce features slippers for instance so I personally find it a bit rich that one subject is treated as a joke whilst the other elicits abuse.

I'll let people decide which one is which!

Are you suggesting my slippers are a joke?! Is Bob calling me a nitwit? Outrageous.

I'm going on strike.

@Sluffy wrote:

Yes it was completely a diplomatic move on my part to attempt to stop the unnecessary and unwarranted personal abuse.  People may not like you posting what you do but they have no right whatsoever to express their views in such a manner.

As you say there is a link to some of the good and great Bolton Wanderers players and managers/coaching staff but I think you will agree the tax avoidance scheme in question was not specifically designed for them nor indeed were they majority participants in it.

I had no issue that the thread was originally posted in the BWFC part of the board and still hadn't until the unwarranted abuse - hence why I simply moved it, being the lesser of two evils.

As for Vince I don't recall him being the 'darling' of the Nuts posters at the time (nor since) but just another stick to beat Anderson with.

I have personally pointed out since on here (maybe even Wways as well - I can't recall) that Vince behaviour was completely at odds with that of Norwich (in respect of Remi Matthews) who were in exactly the same position at the time - and which was sorted out amicably to both sides satisfaction merely days later.  

It did seem that Dale was on a mission (no one ever explained his links to the ST and his donation to them???) and in the end Vince lost out by £750k difference in transfer fees from the £1m we would have had to pay compared to the £250k he eventually sold him for.

My recollection was that Vince never actually threatened to liquidate us and that his threat was to put us into Administration if we didn't pay the £1m on demand and that it was KA who countered his bluff by saying he was a secured creditor and he wouldn't lose out if Vince pushed for Administration and that led to liquidation of the club.

In retrospect now, that was clearly either wishful thinking or a bluff from KA as it turned out that KA was not a secured creditor for as much as he thought/believed(?) he was.  

As a man who clearly knows how to 'play' the business world and has clearly demonstrated this ability as such, my money his on him knowing he probably wasn't as 'secured' as he made out to Vince and simply out bluffed him.

Whatever the case it is water under the bridge and most of us, including myself have moved on from him.

I don't have any doubt that Vince has taken far more money out of his business in questionable ways than anything like the masses claimed Anderson was doing (or even did - he's still not be charged or sanctioned with anything, even though the books have long since been gone through by an agent of the court).

I can see and have sympathy for your view of Vince but it certainly isn't reciprocated by most on here mainly because he's no longer of relevance to us anymore.

You have every right to continue to highlight Vince in the same way Bonce features slippers for instance so I personally find it a bit rich that one subject is treated as a joke whilst the other elicits abuse.

I'll let people decide which one is which!

I wouldn't normally quote BBC Sport as being an authority but this is how they reported on the matter and it sounds very much like a threat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46825046

It was plain to me when Doidge was signed, that BWFC could only afford to pay for him if Ken Anderson succeeded in his attempts to get new investment. So why was it not plain to Vince, or was it plain and he was just playing Mr Big and the wounded party, rolled into one?

Do you know how much FGR have been paid and when, or even if they have been paid? I don't. I know that Sharon and Emma went down to see him and presumably came away with some agreement. Having her picture taken with Vince cost Sharon nowt but you never know, she might have liked him and didn't like Ken. She probably didn't like Ken.

Anyway I was pleased to notice this morning that Vince's former Finance Director has secured a new job and good luck to him. Reading between the lines of his Linkedin comments he had a lot to handle when he was at Ecotricity much of it related to years before he arrived.

@boltonbonce wrote:Are you suggesting my slippers are a joke?! Is Bob calling me a nitwit? Outrageous.

I'm going on strike.

I don't think you're a nitwit, Boncey, and I have found our exchanges entertaining.

If I have a criticism, it is that I think you would benefit a lot from widening the scope of your reading.

But I've said that before haven't I?

Patronising as ever eh Ten Bob? 

@Sluffy wrote:

@wanderlust wrote:

@Sluffy wrote:

@MartinBWFC wrote:Fuck off with your non BWFC football shit 10 bob, custard or any other names you go by. there's other places to post your absolute shite.

No need for the abuse Martin.

Just for you I've moved the thread to where Bob (and anyone else) are allowed to post about whatever he/they want.

If you don't like Bob or what he posts then don't read it.

Simple as that really.

Good advice, if somewhat ironic.

Obviously that remark is aimed at me, so I'll reply.

First, you're the one who is the one who is constantly and personally abusive, not me - the worst I've ever called you is a nutjob - which considering you telling us how at football you run rings about blokes fifty years younger than you and that you voted for Brexit then spent the next three years continually moaning about how shit it will be that we are leaving the EU - seems fair, reasonable and above all rational comment to me!

Second, I've never had any problem with you posting however I have had with your abuse and also when I KNOW you are wrong, I've got every right to say so (as TROY keeps telling us) - no matter how much you don't like to hear it (as you clearly can't ever admit to being wrong - even on the internet!).

Have a nice day.

I never got round to telling you about the "screamer" I scored on Friday so seeing as you've given me an open goal I will. Had the ball at the back, nobody in space so I looked to go long to my mate who is good in the air as he peeled away from his marker. Smacked it upfield and it sailed over the goalie into the top corner.
Haven't actually told any of them that it was meant to be a pass and that the wind caught it (why would I?) - but neither have I made a big deal about it. They love me them lads.

@Ten Bobsworth wrote:I wouldn't normally quote BBC Sport as being an authority but this is how they reported on the matter and it sounds very much like a threat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46825046

It was plain to me when Doidge was signed, that BWFC could only afford to pay for him if Ken Anderson succeeded in his attempts to get new investment. So why was it not plain to Vince, or was it plain and he was just playing Mr Big and the wounded party rolled into one?

Do you know how much FGR have been paid and when, or even if they have been paid? I don't. I know that Sharon and Emma went down to see him and presumably came away with some agreement. Having her picture taken with Vince cost Sharon nowt but you never know, she might have liked him and didn't like Ken. She probably didn't like Ken.

Anyway I was pleased to notice this morning that Vince's former Finance Director has secured a new job and good luck to him. Reading between the lines of his Linkedin comments he had a lot to handle when he was at Ecotricity much of it related to years before he arrived.

This is the video interview where Vince himself says that Anderson said that he was a secured creditor whilst Vince would only get "10p in the pound" - so I've taken that as Ken calling Vince's bluff about seeking a winding up order (or piggybacking on to the HMRC one that was current at the time).

https://www.fgr.co.uk/news/january-2019/interview-dale-vince-discusses-doidge-saga

If Anderson did say that - and I expect he did - he clearly was inferring that the club would be liquidated - as Administration would have meant Vince being a footballing creditor and thus be first inline as a creditor.

Anyway, we've moved on from that.

I expect FGR was a footballing creditor in which case I understand that such debts had to be paid in full at the time of exiting Administration. I assume however, with the meeting between Sharon and Vince, that some agreement was reached to defer full payment and Sharon was just on a goodwill visit to thank and assure him that full payment will be made as per such an agreement.

I've no idea who Sharon likes or doesn't like but I get the impression from how she has been portrayed so far that she may well be the sort of person who relates well to everybody but is still savvy enough not to mix business with social niceties.

I try to be somewhat like that myself.

Clearly I've failed here on Nuts though!

@wanderlust wrote:

@Sluffy wrote:

@wanderlust wrote:

@Sluffy wrote:

@MartinBWFC wrote:Fuck off with your non BWFC football shit 10 bob, custard or any other names you go by. there's other places to post your absolute shite.

No need for the abuse Martin.

Just for you I've moved the thread to where Bob (and anyone else) are allowed to post about whatever he/they want.

If you don't like Bob or what he posts then don't read it.

Simple as that really.

Good advice, if somewhat ironic.

Obviously that remark is aimed at me, so I'll reply.

First, you're the one who is the one who is constantly and personally abusive, not me - the worst I've ever called you is a nutjob - which considering you telling us how at football you run rings about blokes fifty years younger than you and that you voted for Brexit then spent the next three years continually moaning about how shit it will be that we are leaving the EU - seems fair, reasonable and above all rational comment to me!

Second, I've never had any problem with you posting however I have had with your abuse and also when I KNOW you are wrong, I've got every right to say so (as TROY keeps telling us) - no matter how much you don't like to hear it (as you clearly can't ever admit to being wrong - even on the internet!).

Have a nice day.

I never got round to telling you about the "screamer" I scored on Friday so seeing as you've given me an open goal I will. Had the ball at the back, nobody in space so I looked to go long to my mate who is good in the air as he peeled away from his marker. Smacked it upfield and it sailed over the goalie into the top corner.
Haven't actually told any of them that it was meant to be a pass and that the wind caught it (why would I?) - but neither have I made a big deal about it. They love me them lads.

fantasist
/ˈfantəsɪst/
noun
noun: fantasist; plural noun: fantasists
a person who imagines or dreams about something desired.

You're actually jealous. Wow!

@Ten Bobsworth wrote:

@boltonbonce wrote:Are you suggesting my slippers are a joke?! Is Bob calling me a nitwit? Outrageous.

I'm going on strike.

I don't think you're a nitwit, Boncey, and I have found our exchanges entertaining.

If I have a criticism, it is that I think you would benefit a lot from widening the scope of your reading.

But I've said that before haven't I?

My reading tastes are eclectic. Sadly, they don't stretch to the financial tomes you'd like me to read. 

Why don't you join the ST and put your knowledge to good use? They're looking for people like you.

@wanderlust wrote:You're actually jealous. Wow!

Err No!

How did you ever come to that conclusion?

mentalist
/ˈmɛnt(ə)lɪst/
noun
noun: mentalist; plural noun: mentalists

informal•British
an eccentric or mad person.

@Sluffy wrote:

@Ten Bobsworth wrote:I wouldn't normally quote BBC Sport as being an authority but this is how they reported on the matter and it sounds very much like a threat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46825046

It was plain to me when Doidge was signed, that BWFC could only afford to pay for him if Ken Anderson succeeded in his attempts to get new investment. So why was it not plain to Vince, or was it plain and he was just playing Mr Big and the wounded party rolled into one?

Do you know how much FGR have been paid and when, or even if they have been paid? I don't. I know that Sharon and Emma went down to see him and presumably came away with some agreement. Having her picture taken with Vince cost Sharon nowt but you never know, she might have liked him and didn't like Ken. She probably didn't like Ken.

Anyway I was pleased to notice this morning that Vince's former Finance Director has secured a new job and good luck to him. Reading between the lines of his Linkedin comments he had a lot to handle when he was at Ecotricity much of it related to years before he arrived.

This is the video interview where Vince himself says that Anderson said that he was a secured creditor whilst Vince would only get "10p in the pound" - so I've taken that as Ken calling Vince's bluff about seeking a winding up order (or piggybacking on to the HMRC one that was current at the time).

https://www.fgr.co.uk/news/january-2019/interview-dale-vince-discusses-doidge-saga

If Anderson did say that - and I expect he did - he clearly was inferring that the club would be liquidated - as Administration would have meant Vince being a footballing creditor and thus be first inline as a creditor.

Anyway, we've moved on from that.

I expect FGR was a footballing creditor in which case I understand that such debts had to be paid in full at the time of exiting Administration.  I assume however, with the meeting between Sharon and Vince, that some agreement was reached to defer full payment and Sharon was just on a goodwill visit to thank and assure him that full payment will be made as per such an agreement.

I've no idea who Sharon likes or doesn't like but I get the impression from how she has been portrayed so far that she may well be the sort of person who relates well to everybody but is still savvy enough not to mix business with social niceties.

I try to be somewhat like that myself.

Clearly I've failed here on Nuts though!

It is of academic interest but Ken Anderson's lawyers had filed notice of a charge as security for the money KA lent to the club (or BL).

The problem with the Administrators was that they didn't even recognise the loan, let alone the security for the loan. Yet Blumarble had been paid off. The money must have come from somewhere.

The Administrators Statement had the appearance of an attempt to improve the position of the Eddie Davies Trust but it made no logical sense. The result, it seems to me, was a double administration with all the consequential additional costs and delays.

I'm sure FGR were a football creditor for a disputed amount and would have thought Sharon and Emma went to FGR to try to get it agreed. In other words, a personal charm offensive was likely to get a better result than telephone calls and correspondence.

Vince Btw had another whinge about it all in the accounts that were recently filed late. Read it with a pinch of salt.

@Ten Bobsworth wrote:It is of academic interest but Ken Anderson's lawyers had filed notice of a charge as security for the money KA lent to the club (or BL).

The problem with the Administrators was that they didn't even recognise the loan, let alone the security for the loan. Yet Blumarble had been paid off. The money must have come from somewhere.

The Administrators Statement had the appearance of an attempt to improve the position of the Eddie Davies Trust but it made no logical sense. The result, it seems to me, was a double administration with all the consequential additional costs and delays.

I'm sure FGR were a football creditor for a disputed amount and would have thought Sharon and Emma went to FGR to try to get it agreed. In other words, a personal charm offensive was likely to get a better result than telephone calls and correspondence.

Vince Btw had another whinge about it all in the accounts that were recently filed late. Read it with a pinch of salt.

I agree that the charge was registered however I never understood how it could have been?

Obviously I bow to your expertise on these matters but on a simplistic approach my thinking was this -

Were all assets already fully secured at the time when KA 'secured' his loan (which I believe they were according to the book valuations at the time) if so what exactly did he secure it on?

If the money was to release BM's security on the hotel (which it was) then how could the money be spent to settle BM's claim, yet still be there to secure the assets that had just been released?

So I came to the same conclusion that the Administrators also did, namely the money was put in (presumably as a cash injection by the sole owner - equity?) to directly settle the BM debt and NOT intended to be used as security on assets that already had been covered to their full value.

Whether my thinking is right in law is another thing but I guess if the Administrator construed similar thinking as I did, then perhaps I was at least in the same ball park as him?

I've no idea why the Administration was done in two and if so why PBP didn't appoint the hotel Administrator rather than KA - they were after all the people first in line who it seems at the time believed their £5.5m security covered the entirety of the assets worth?

As for FGR, my understanding fwiw, is that they were a creditor but possibly not a football one (or at least not for everything they claimed).

There seemed to me to be two issues, the first the wages FGR paid for the player whilst he was on loan to us and the second for 'breach' of contract by not signing him for £1m.

I would suspect the wages (being the lesser sum) was a footballing creditor - and thus paid when the club came out of Administration and into FV's ownership - but wonder if the contract dispute was treated differently - and as such became an unsecured creditor amount?

My reason for thinking this is how can you determine the value of the contract in that it presumably had numerous clauses and 'breaks' within it?

At the time I seem to recall Iles saying something along the lines that although the headline amount was £1m, it was never actually amount to anything like that in reality?

Maybe it was this part of FGR's claim that was set to one side when FV bought the club and brought it out of Administration (so not included as a football creditor as such, which would have need settling in full before Administration could be concluded) and Sharon's charm offensive some time later on her visit to Vince agreeing to the settlement of the matter and associated payments?

I'm really just guessing but it does seem to be the most plausible scenario that anyone has come up with so far?

I still play football once a week with lads a good 20 years my junior and some of them are even still in their teens, am i a fantasist as well Sluffy?

@Norpig wrote:I still play football once a week with lads a good 20 years my junior and some of them are even still in their teens, am i a fantasist as well Sluffy?

There’s a difference Norpig.

Wanderlust still thinks he’s as good as he was when he was in his teens.

@Norpig wrote:I still play football once a week with lads a good 20 years my junior and some of them are even still in their teens, am i a fantasist as well Sluffy?

Only if you disagree with him and custard.

I've always been shit but enthusiastic 

@Norpig wrote:I still play football once a week with lads a good 20 years my junior and some of them are even still in their teens, am i a fantasist as well Sluffy?

Are you nearly seventy years old?

No I didn't think so.

I played football into my fifties but there comes a time when the body can't take it anymore - otherwise we'd all be playing still.

Also do you really think twentysomethings would take shit off an old git on a football pitch these days?

Even in my day I'd let anybody - young or old - know they were in a game with me.  

No free passes to anyone on the opposition from me, even if we all were from the same office/workplace.

And also how patient would you be if you were lumbered with a seventy year old on your side?  

Not very I would imagine.

Wanderlust is just bullshitting, it's what he does, haven't you worked that out yet???

But Sluffy how do you know that for definite? Have you nipped down to East Anglia to spy on him? My main point is the double standards on show from you when it comes to lusty.

You feel perfectly comfortable calling him various names but object when it happens to others on here.

@Norpig wrote:But Sluffy how do you know that for definite? Have you nipped down to East Anglia to spy on him? My main point is the double standards on show from you when it comes to lusty.

You feel perfectly comfortable calling him various names but object when it happens to others on here.

I've called him a nutjob and a moonman - how does that compare to what he's called me over the years or what Martin abused Bob with the other day?

There's simply no comparison - nor double standards on my part.

I was offered a trial at Rochdale by Bob Stokoe, so stick that in your pipes and smoke it.

Kept that quiet didn't I.

Look at all these bellends claiming to be Ronaldo.

When you've scored a 25 yard volley at Deepdale with a broken ankle, then you can post about your football exploits.

@boltonbonce wrote:I was offered a trial at Rochdale by Bob Stokoe, so stick that in your pipes and smoke it.

Kept that quiet didn't I.

 Fantasist 

@Natasha Whittam wrote:Look at all these bellends claiming to be Ronaldo.

When you've scored a 25 yard volley at Deepdale with a broken ankle, then you can post about your football exploits.

 Mentalist 

I once headed a penalty. Burst the net. And with the old heavy ball! Even the keeper applauded.

@Sluffy wrote:
I've called him a nutjob and a moonman - how does that compare to what he's called me over the years or what Martin abused Bob with the other day?

There's simply no comparison - nor double standards on my part.

And what would that be? telling him to post non BWFC stuff elsewhere is not abuse as far as I'm concerned.

@boltonbonce wrote:I was offered a trial at Rochdale by Bob Stokoe, so stick that in your pipes and smoke it.

Kept that quiet didn't I.

Probably a good thing nothing came of it then with you being accident prone.

You would be out injured like Mavies was!