Coronavirus - the political argument

Having a different opinion to you is not trolling - although the fact you think it is explains why you end up having so many internet feuds.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Having a different opinion to you is not trolling - although the fact you think it is explains why you end up having so many internet feuds.

You do realise you are talking to someone who set up this forum precisely so people could discuss differences of opinion and not have to toe the party line on some sites who ban you if you're out of step with the powers that be.

Someone who has endured countless abuse from a small handful of people, over several years, yet very, very few of them had ever been shown the door - and even then frequently let back in again!

I don't have feuds with anybody let alone people on internet sites but that's not to say a few weirdo's on the web do harbour internet grudges with me some going back for ten years or more at least!

No, you're the one with the issue.

You're the one that plays the games, who seeks the reaction, to amuse yourself, to get your laughs.

Probably stems from when we crossed swords on sites going back a number of years ago.

I don't believe you're bitter, like one or two have been but you still haven't let it go and that's why we continue to do this same dance over, and over, and over again, since.

You openly admitted you were being a dick on the original coronavirus thread, you say you don't read my posts on this one - but you still carried on posting the opposite to what I was saying - clearly to get a response from me - yet you claim you aren't trolling?  

Pull the other one.

Right okay.

Here we go again. Can we have a Sluffy versus TROY thread please ?

Incidentally, Sluffy, I agree completely with your origin Times post, thought it was very good.

boltonbonce wrote:Forget Covid. Kenneth Copeland has our back.

Thanks for that , we all need something to laugh at in these trying times.

Cajunboy wrote:

boltonbonce wrote:Forget Covid. Kenneth Copeland has our back.

Thanks for that , we all need something to laugh at in these trying times.

The guy next to him needs to up his performance. He just doesn't do it for me.

    He's just a trainee evangelist.

Richard Horton editor of the Lancet debunking the government’s use of his tweet in January in their rebuttal to the Sunday Time’s article.

https://twitter.com/richardhorton1/status/1252183975893884933?s=21

On the same day, I tweeted a series on Lancet publications that emphasised the severity of COVID-19: human-to-human transmission, a critical illness requiring ICU admission, and a virus with “pandemic potential.” Read the article. What is happening now is all there. pic.twitter.com/D2SPsniOuQ

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) April 20, 2020

On Jan 25, the next day, I drew attention to the issue of ICU capacity and asked why there was no discussion of this urgent clinical challenge. pic.twitter.com/aZ8GPtbxlv

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) April 20, 2020

On Jan 26, I tweeted “The needle is moving towards the affirmative” for declaring a Public Health Emergency of International Concern. A PHEIC was declared on Jan 30. The fact is that minsters/scientific advisors failed to understand what was happening in China, despite evidence. pic.twitter.com/YOtX20AtZ2

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) April 20, 2020

Well to be fair, I've taken the bother to see what his original tweet said -

A call for caution please. Media are escalating anxiety by talking of a “killer virus” + “growing fears”. In truth, from what we currently know, 2019-nCoV has moderate transmissibility and relatively low pathogenicity. There is no reason to foster panic with exaggerated language.

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) January 24, 2020

...and indeed he does state that the virus had moderate transmissibility and relatively low pathogenicity.

He goes on to praise the Chinese who must have provided the details on which he comments above on transmission of the virus (moderate) and death rate resulting (low)

And, when one examines the global response to 2019-nCoV, Chinese authorities have acted quickly and decisively to control the outbreak. They have shared information rapidly and transparently. Meanwhile, WHO has been impressive: clear and confident decisions and communication.

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) January 24, 2020

This is the article in the Lancet which he refers to on one of his tweets above - no mention whatever of how bad this was going to be - seems to me the Chinese probably did with their lockdown - indeed the article states it thought it seemed like a drastic step!

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30186-0/fulltext

This tweet of his on the 26th Jan (which he didn't put in his rebuttal above!) indicated that the world was beginning to wonder if the true picture was coming out of China!!!

Chinese journalists are asking URGENTLY for expert information. Domestic Chinese experts are not making public statements, leaving the Chinese public without guidance and advice. I ask Chinese public health colleagues: please use your news media to strengthen public confidence.

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) January 26, 2020

By the 30th he clearly doesn't believe the details coming out of China -

Perhaps Tedros should have read this article before giving his judgement about China’s response to 2019-nCoV. I know I should have. https://t.co/SwOkAxi10E

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) January 30, 2020

To continue from the post above, what Horton is referring to is this and I strongly suggest anyone who is interested in why Macron, Trump, etc have pointed the finger directly at China that they should read it -

https://archive.is/iNizl

This is just an extract from the opener of it -

Shutting People’s Mouths
Everyone must understand, first of all, that this epidemic was allowed to spread for a period of more than forty days before any of the abovementioned cities were closed off, or any decisive action taken. In fact, if we look at the main efforts undertaken by the leadership, and by provincial and city governments in particular, these were focused mostly not on the containment of the epidemic itself, but on the containment and suppression of information about the disease.
The early suppression of news about the epidemic is now fairly common knowledge among Chinese, and many people view this failure to grapple openly with the outbreak as the chief reason why it was later seen as necessary to take the “dramatic action” of closing down my city and many others.
The direct cause of all of this trouble is of course the new coronavirus that has spread now from Wuhan across the globe and has everybody talking.

A later extract at the point when Wuhan went into lockdown -

The order was issued at 2AM on January 23, but was not officially implemented until 10AM, which opened up an eight-hour window in which people who managed to learn of the situation could make a swift exit, taking to the expressways in their private cars.
We can be sure that a substantial number of the people who left the city at this point – some estimates are of as many as one million – were already by this point carriers of the coronavirus.

This is the Lancet published on the 1st February - does it sound that it is asking the government to take urgent action - doesn't to me -

2019-nCoV: the early lessons. https://t.co/grbWldh3t1

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) January 31, 2020

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30212-9/fulltext


Horton then tends to not say much about the virus with this being an exception on the 13th Feb -

Excellent job on Today this morning from the Chief Medical Officer, Chris Whitty—clear, frank, and, most impressively, human.

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) February 13, 2020

He re-tweets this without comment on the 21st Feb -

Let's be clear about this moment in #COVID19 : It's not about China anymore. It's about the world. Clusters will pop up all over & governments will fight the fires w/the tools + politics at hand. Some will put out their fires quickly. But some won't. We're in uncharted territory https://t.co/ojw40P2xcy

— Laurie Garrett (@Laurie_Garrett) February 21, 2020

In fact it is only on the 3rd March that he begins to worry -

The UK’s plan for COVID-19: too little, too late? I worry...

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) March 3, 2020

I find this tweet particularly ironic from him as he later blames the government for inaction during the whole of February!!!

Who am I to know what is what but it seems to me that Horton did initially believe the Chinese (mis)information about 'moderate' transmission of the virus and 'so-so' death rate, tweeted that the press should not 'dramatise' things so as not to cause unnecessary public panic but did flag up we might need to get more ventilators based on what information he had from China.

In all honesty I can't find any particular public concern from him over the virus either in his tweets or from the Lancet until the beginning of March.

Even on the 10th March he wasn't really raising the roof was he?

The UK government’s decision not to move to “delay” may be understandable, but it’s a mistake. As one UK expert epidemiologist put it to me last night, their decision is “very disappointing—the UK should have moved to more aggressive social distancing measures immediately.”

— richard horton (@richardhorton1) March 10, 2020

He has gone on to be extremely critical over the governments handling of this but I find it a bit of rich him criticising the governments inaction during February/early March, when he himself/the Lancet didn't seem to express much urgency over the matter.

As for the tweet he was quoted in by the government in respect of the Sunday Time article - it was factual.

He certainly spent a great chunk of his time from that tweet until early March tweeting about loads of other stuff, with coronavirus hardly mentioned.

Check it out for yourselves if you don't believe me -

https://twitter.com/richardhorton1

I do recommend however that you read the article from the journalist from Wuhan I've linked to above and what he says actually happened in China and how it was supressed by the government which has directly led to the world pandemic and all the needless deaths.

boltonbonce wrote:

Norpig wrote:Okocha banned? 

I've read his post a couple of times, but I can't really see anything worthy of even a one day ban, let alone three.
I hope Sluffy will reconsider, because, on past form Okocha is one of our fairest and even handed posters.

Thank you for your kindness, Norpig and Bonce

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Way too much Sluffy. I assume there’s something else outside of the forum which has stressed you out and triggered this reaction (I’m sure a lot of us have been in similar frames of mind). 

Think when you look back at this today removal of the ban and an apology to okocha would be fair.

Thank you for your kindness, TROY.

It's good to see you  are back Okocha, I always like to read your posts even if I don't agree with them .

That wasn't meant to come across as a backhanded complement.

Good to have you back. I always think of you as an moralistic goody goody, but there again, that's not a bad thing, and we often need it on here   Just keep on posting.

gloswhite wrote:Good to have you back. I always think of you as an moralistic goody goody, but there again, that's not a bad thing, and we often need it on here   Just keep on posting.

Now that is a back handed compliment.

More government lies.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8241937/Top-civil-servant-says-ministers-political-decision-DELIBERATELY-snub-EU-PPE-scheme.html

xmiles wrote:More government lies.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8241937/Top-civil-servant-says-ministers-political-decision-DELIBERATELY-snub-EU-PPE-scheme.html

Seems the top Civil Servant misspoke!

We’ve just received this clarification from ⁦@SMcDonaldFCO⁩ after today’s ⁦@CommonsForeign⁩ hearing. pic.twitter.com/TuY9Wiid4J

— Tom Tugendhat (@TomTugendhat) April 21, 2020