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Coronavirus - the political argument

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301Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Mon Apr 27 2020, 20:51

Natasha Whittam


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Bolton-s-disallowed-goal-against-everton-in-1997-988737850

302Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Mon Apr 27 2020, 22:11

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 3610919

303Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed Apr 29 2020, 11:10

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
If only Boris' brain, attitudes and methods were as productive as his penis!

Congratulations (and future condolences) to Carrie. I hope your partner will be more caring this time than he has been for his seven (?) previous children.....

304Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed Apr 29 2020, 11:40

Natasha Whittam


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Bolton-s-disallowed-goal-against-everton-in-1997-988737850

305Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed Apr 29 2020, 12:09

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Nat why do you keep posting that picture?

306Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed Apr 29 2020, 12:13

Natasha Whittam


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I thought this was a thread where people banged on about the past, making the same post over and over again.

That header definitely crossed the line! We'd probably be world champions now if it had been called correctly.

307Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri May 01 2020, 19:53

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Coronavirus: Target reached as UK tests pass 100,000 a day https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52508836

This is propaganda, the target was to test 100,000 people a day. Today’s figure includes 40,000 tests being put in the post.

The increase in testing is still a remarkable achievement - why treat the public like idiots and lie?

308Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri May 01 2020, 22:23

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Coronavirus: Target reached as UK tests pass 100,000 a day https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52508836

This is propaganda, the target was to test 100,000 people a day. Today’s figure includes 40,000 tests being put in the post.

The increase in testing is still a remarkable achievement - why treat the public like idiots and lie?

And you say I obsessed!

It is what it is.

The 100,000 total turned into a political target just for the sake of the Conservatives saying we hit it and Labour to crow they didn't - it should never be about that at all - it should be all about gearing up the system and resources to put in place this pillar of the strategy to fight/defeat the virus as best as we are able to.

Political point scoring is meaningless at the best of times but doing so now is just ridiculous.

Does an aspirational number set some weeks ago have to be set in stone just so someone can beat the government over the head with if it isn't met?

Shouldn't we all be working together to beat this rather than kicking each other in the shins and squabbling all the time?

Would it have been a disaster for the government if they had only done 99,999 tests today and a triumph to be shouted from the hills if they had done 100,001?

No it wouldn't.

It is just an arbitrary number given as an aspirational target, 'forced' upon the government of the day to meet by the opposition 'point scoring' err, holding them to account a few weeks back.

What matters is that testing has got a great deal better now and that was the actual objective, that everybody had wanted, was it not?

309Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri May 01 2020, 22:43

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Yes that’s why I said it’s a remarkable achievement. So why are they bothering to trying to blag it?

Seriously, do you not read posts before starting these essay replies?

310Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri May 01 2020, 22:47

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@Sluffy wrote:
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Coronavirus: Target reached as UK tests pass 100,000 a day https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52508836

This is propaganda, the target was to test 100,000 people a day. Today’s figure includes 40,000 tests being put in the post.

The increase in testing is still a remarkable achievement - why treat the public like idiots and lie?

And you say I obsessed!

It is what it is.

The 100,000 total turned into a political target just for the sake of the Conservatives saying we hit it and Labour to crow they didn't - it should never be about that at all - it should be all about gearing up the system and resources to put in place this pillar of the strategy to fight/defeat the virus as best as we are able to.

Political point scoring is meaningless at the best of times but doing so now is just ridiculous.

Does an aspirational number set some weeks ago have to be set in stone just so someone can beat the government over the head with if it isn't met?

Shouldn't we all be working together to beat this rather than kicking each other in the shins and squabbling all the time?

Would it have been a disaster for the government if they had only done 99,999 tests today and a triumph to be shouted from the hills if they had done 100,001?

No it wouldn't.

It is just an arbitrary number given as an aspirational target, 'forced' upon the government of the day to meet by the opposition 'point scoring' err, holding them to account a few weeks back.

What matters is that testing has got a great deal better now and that was the actual objective, that everybody had wanted, was it not?

You are ignoring the fact that Hancock lied today when he said that "we have met our goal". They didn't. Nobody forced Hancock to come up with this target. He chose it simply to divert attention away from other issues.

If the government expects to be trusted they should try being honest.

311Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Fri May 01 2020, 23:24

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
https://www.hsj.co.uk/quality-and-performance/government-counts-mailouts-to-hit-100000-testing-target/7027544.article

A senior source close to the testing programme told HSJ that work to achieve the 100,000 tests per day had been “manic” and that the health and social care secretary Matt Hancock was “obsessed” with reaching the target. “They are trying every trick in the book,” the source said.

HSJ’s source said: “The view is that is unsustainable. It was just a massive one-day mission on the part of Amazon and the Royal Mail”.

Hopefully the above is inaccurate and we can sustain required levels of testing. But it doesn’t fill with confidence at this point. Why set targets if you’re not sure you’ll hit them either? It just doesn’t make any sense to me, if it was such a struggle you have had to lie to get there where did he get the number from in the first place? Thin air?

312Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 11:54

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes that’s why I said it’s a remarkable achievement. So why are they bothering to trying to blag it?

Seriously, do you not read posts before starting these essay replies?

I've told you, I read your posts, the last one I responded to gave me a good laugh - 'propaganda' - yeah, right!!!

If you have started to read my posts again however, you clearly can't grasp what they say as you've been much  too wrapped up in proving your political point scoring than seeing the big picture at all.

Allow me to spell it out for you seeing you've missed the point totally first time round.

I've stated right from the beginning that fighting the virus should be foremost and political point scoring/holding to account (squabbling) should be put to one side during this.

Was it - oh no it wasn't.  All this 'scrutineering' in this case led to arbitrary, wishful, 'targets' to be set with firstly an aspirational target of 10.000 per day then later the macho one of 100,000.

Any science to the numbers, even infra structure to achieve them, process them - no, just political dick waving - one side saying 'you're failing, you're not doing enough' and the other side responding 'we've got a plan and it's bigger than yours'.

So we get the pointless race to a meaningless total just to prove a political point and bugger what else real needs to be done right now.

A BBC article today picks up what I've been saying, in which it repeats a clip from Whitty from a week or so ago explain what I've attempted to say to you earlier about how things work in my personal experience in government, namely that you can only respond to circumstances with the resources you've got to hand and if they are insufficient (which they were) you've got to work out how best to use them to fight the fire with, knowing that some areas will suffer until you can stop the main blaze and get help to deal with the rest as fast as you are able to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52493784

So we've achieved a 100,000 target, by hook or by crook, which looks as though it can't be sustained, with a chunk of the tests not even been received back yet and a question mark over even if some of those doing the results are trained enough to be doing them.  

All for what - because of unnecessary and utterly pointless political point scoring/point defending, at a time when it's least required.

The political game playing needs to be put to one side whilst the virus is beaten.

Surely this is a clear example why that should be?

313Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 12:07

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Either you’re not reading my posts, or you’re not understanding them. You’re just repeating what I said originally (just in triple the amount of words).

Once again: It’s a remarkable achievement - why are they bothering to ‘politically point score’ by lying about the total.

Give it a rest man, for gods sake. The efforts to manufacture an argument are insane.

314Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 13:04

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
I've always thought that its better to set a target and work for it, (and fail if so be it), than set a low target, and not really achieve anything.
As TROY says, its a remarkable achievement, and lets be honest, we knew there would always be questions if it was reached. At least its in the right direction.

315Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 19:45

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Either you’re not reading my posts, or you’re not understanding them. You’re just repeating what I said originally (just in triple the amount of words).

Once again: It’s a remarkable achievement - why are they bothering to ‘politically point score’ by lying about the total.

Give it a rest man, for gods sake. The efforts to manufacture an argument are insane.

No mate, your point was about the government 'propaganda' and telling 'lies'.

You've banged on about the government's failings and not being truthful and the need for Labour and the media to hold them to account right from the very beginning, your 'propaganda and lies' post being just being the latest in the series.

You even went on to post about the HSJ backing up your points about 'Hancock' being "obsessed"  with reaching 'the target', how they were 'trying every trick in the book' to get to it, and how it was 'unsustainable' and it was just a 'massive one day mission' just to get there.  How it didn't make sense to you to set targets that seem arbitrary, unattainable and you had to lie to meet.

Hardly making the point about it being a 'remarkable achievement' which you've suddenly changed your tune to!

It's never been the time to play 'scrutiny', 'accountability', 'point scoring' during this once in a lifetime crisis of the pandemic but unfortunately that wasn't to be and has led to this palaver over meeting the 100,000 target and the so called 'lies and propaganda' in doing so.

Thankfully most people are now seeming to stop these petty games right now - even you have clearly changed your mantra in the last day or so!

316Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 20:23

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
I have an incredible ability to make multiple points in one post. It’s just one reason why I’m such a valued contributor here.

Clearly my ability to make two points in one post has caused it to go over your head, so one last time

It’s a remarkable achievement - but why have they bothered to lie about it?

317Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 21:15

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:I have an incredible ability to make multiple points in one post. It’s just one reason why I’m such a valued contributor here.

Clearly my ability to make two points in one post has caused it to go over your head, so one last time

It’s a remarkable achievement - but why have they bothered to lie about it?


Ah, self opinionated, conceited and being personally abusive.

Showing your true colours.

Your mask is slipping!

318Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 21:29

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Hardly a mask, I need to point out something’s gone over your head most days. If you suddenly feel personally abused by that then I suggest you’re taking the internet too seriously.

319Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 21:39

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Hardly a mask, I need to point out something’s gone over your head most days. If you suddenly feel personally abused by that then I suggest you’re taking the internet too seriously.

Hahaha.

I've taken far worse on a daily basis on here for years and you know it.

It's not me that spent his time on here arguing ad nauseum with people apart from me, just to prove he's right on the internet!

You certainly don't practice what you preach yourself!

Have a nice day.

Very Happy

320Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sat May 02 2020, 22:27

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
You seem desperate to drag the conversation off topic.

Let me know what your problem is with my original statement, or make a new point. Otherwise I don’t understand what the point of this back and forth is.

321Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Sun May 03 2020, 15:28

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 3154193889

322Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Mon May 04 2020, 18:16

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@Cajunboy wrote:Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 3154193889
Again

323Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed May 06 2020, 07:38

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
The worst death toll in Europe now. Horrendous and shameful.

324Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed May 06 2020, 09:55

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:The worst death toll in Europe now. Horrendous and shameful.

When all this was starting to unfold in Italy, I never thought in a million years we would have overtaken them on this.

325Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed May 06 2020, 10:00

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Me too Karly, unfortunately it looks as though the government didn’t think that was a possibility either. Hence the slow reaction.

326Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed May 06 2020, 10:21

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Extraordinary to see almost all the national daily newspapers start to criticise the government, even those that have always been vocal cheerleaders for the Tory party.

I never thought I'd see negative reporting of the government's failings in The Mail!!

Only The Express continues to deny or deflect the widespread fault-finding, choosing to fill its front pages with cries of outrage about China or Meghan instead.

Boris' aim to unite the country after Brexit has come unstuck with as much social division as ever in evidence when the public are able to have their say.

Also interesting is that the scientists that inform government policy are now being criticised, as is the BBC. Sad days!

327Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed May 06 2020, 11:38

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
I believe the government have done well in some areas, such as putting in measures to see that the NHS wasn't overwhelmed. Having said that, I also believe that the indecision and lack of authority at the beginning of the outbreak was understandable for the first few days, but not after that. It was a shambles, and it goes to show that our national government, along with the nation infrastructure needs some serious scrutiny, followed by all the necessary remedial action.
Although I thought Starmer was a wimp prior to his election, I think he has shown himself to be a fair man during this crisis, and it'll be interesting to see how he takes on Boris at PMQ. I think he will be asking some very pertinent questions, which we would all like the answers to.

328Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed May 06 2020, 17:18

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It’s the herd  immunity bullshit again guys.

It’s got to be!  affraid

329Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed May 06 2020, 18:11

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Sadly the brutal reality is that until we have a vaccine or herd immunity more people are going to die. It is not realistic to pretend that we can maintain the lockdown indefinitely. The purpose of the lockdown was to prevent our under-resourced NHS being overwhelmed. Now that they are managing we do need to ease the lockdown. Just look at the Nightingale hospitals. They are all going to be closed shortly and most of them have never admitted a single patient.

330Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument Wed May 06 2020, 18:24

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
This is a bit concerning to me.

What's happened in the last week or so to cause this?


17:34
Why are there so many new cases?

Coronavirus - the political argument - Page 11 436602ef-9c39-4725-8db1-876837f1f49a

An eye-catching figure from the briefing is that there were 6,111 new cases of coronavirus recorded yesterday.
That’s the third highest number of new cases in the UK since the outbreak began.
It could be a result of the extraordinary increase in testing we’ve seen since late April.
It’s the highest number of new cases from people such as those in social care, key workers and their families, as opposed to tests carried out in hospitals.
Some of them will be the home test kits that will have been arriving at labs and taking a few days to process and get the results.


I get that the more people they test the more people they are likely to detect but as far as I understand it (maybe I've misunderstood perhaps?) that the testing is being done for those who are doing 'priority' jobs (or whatever the term is) and are 'currently' feeling symptoms of the virus - (or is it simply anyone in priority jobs who think they may have had it?).

IF it's those feeling 'unwell' NOW then surely that means they've caught it in the last 5 to 10 days or so?

IF it's for all priority workers, then equally if the test is for having the virus NOW, then even without them having symptoms, again where have they got it from within the last fortnight?

If it simply shows those that HAD it, then on the days 60k tests it means that 1 in 10 of the population as had it already (although a one day figure alone is meaningless in terms of accuracy).

Obviously I hope is the last of the three possibilities I've put above, otherwise it would seem an awful lot of people have caught the virus in the last week or so, when we've been under lockdown and hospital's have been on the top of things during that time?

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