Coronavirus - the political argument

Ye very convenient for you not to be able to reveal the identity of this mystery poster Sluffy. If you want to continue this message me, otherwise drop it for everybody’s sake.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:One thing I have found interesting in recent weeks is the lack of visibility of Priti Patel. She’s Home Secretary after all, may that indicate she’s got the virus? Or just not at the centre of the response?

Bump

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Ye very convenient for you not to be able to reveal the identity of this mystery poster Sluffy. If you want to continue this message me, otherwise drop it for everybody’s sake.

Believe what you want, doesn't make what I say to be a lie though.

Why would you even dream that I may want to carry this on in private - it's always been about you deliberately looking for a reaction from me in public as you do all the time.

Bottom line though was that I asked for that one and only particular thread, in all the time Nuts has been in existence, to be respected and you deliberately and cynically chose to ignore that and troll me instead for your own personal amusement, no matter what.

Fuck everybody else though, as long as you're scoring your points on the internet.

I'd forgotten about her TROY, but I had noticed  before this virus took hold that she went into hiding immediately after the first day or so of the argument around her. With her way of working, I doubt very much she would be of use in this situation. I think she would just charge ahead with very little sensitivity.

Sluffy, this is getting out of hand, and I'm getting concerned for you. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, and I know how frustrating TROY can be, and the fact that he just keeps going on regardless. but you need to wind down a bit mate. Trying to reason with TROY can sometimes feel like pissing in the wind, it just isn't worth the frustration.
Take it easy, put your feet up, and relax.

wessy wrote:

However all life is political and in time the gloves wil once again be off, no one should lose sight that we started this pandemic in a very poor state due in full to this government and BJ played a leading role in the austerity that led to NHS staff not receiving any worthwhile pay rises, the burseries being stopped so we had fewer nurses, and the total destruction of social care, and of course the depleted stock on PPE and ventilators.  Support now ,question later will be the outcome. keep safe.

Well said wessy.

Brexit has also made things worse with the exodus of many doctors and nurses and the ridiculous failure to participate in EU wide initiatives over things like ventilators.

gloswhite wrote:I'd forgotten about her TROY, but I had noticed  before this virus took hold that she went into hiding immediately after the first day or so of the argument around her. With her way of working, I doubt very much she would be of use in this situation. I think she would just charge ahead with very little sensitivity.

Would probably agree with you, I’m no fan (that probably doesn’t surprise you). The government/cabinet is beginning to look a little thin on the ground though. Can only hope for speedy recoveries and no more spreading now of course but there aren’t many left to take the lead should Raab come down with it next.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I'd forgotten about her TROY, but I had noticed  before this virus took hold that she went into hiding immediately after the first day or so of the argument around her. With her way of working, I doubt very much she would be of use in this situation. I think she would just charge ahead with very little sensitivity.

Would probably agree with you, I’m no fan (that probably doesn’t surprise you). The government/cabinet is beginning to look a little thin on the ground though. Can only hope for speedy recoveries and no more spreading now of course but there aren’t many left to take the lead should Raab come down with it next.

Agree, but i think the big guns, such as Gove, are quietly watching him working his way into a corner, and will probably bale him out if needed. Not a good showing for him though.

gloswhite wrote:Sluffy, this is getting out of hand, and I'm getting concerned for you. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, and I know how frustrating TROY can be, and the fact that he just keeps going on regardless. but you need to wind down a bit mate. Trying to reason with TROY can sometimes feel like pissing in the wind, it just isn't worth the frustration.
Take it easy, put your feet up, and relax.

Thanks Glos I'm fine.

We all know he gets his jollies from arguing ad nauseum but I knew others didn't want such shite on that particular thread but he obvious didn't wish to see further than me and again made it about personal point scoring.

He's clearly smart enough to know better but he just seems determined to go out of his way to get that reaction out of me no matter what and despite everyone else's enjoyment of the site.

He shouldn't have done it on that particular thread and I believe he realises that now.

Lesson learned now perhaps but let's move on anyway.

You invented another poster complained to you to drag the argument on.

Just give it a break.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:You invented another poster complained to you to drag the argument on.

Just give it a break.

Did I?

I don't play games.

Believe what you want if it makes you feel better - but for what it's worth - I really didn't.

What's happened to Cummings? Normally I'd say that he advises cabinet members when to keep quiet or when to avoid being interviewed....and that he probably is behind Patel's silence now.....but he also went to ground after displaying CV symptoms and has not been heard of since....at least not to my knowledge.

As for the interchange between Sluffy and TROY, I think what Sir Keir said soon after his confirmation as Labour Leader is exactly correct:- work with the govt for the nation's good but hold them to account when they have clearly made errors, so that they can take heed to prevent more of the same mistakes at this critical time, not afterwards when it's too late to change tack. The madness of Cummings' herd immunity policy, for example, needed pointing out at the time....and to be fair the govt semed to listen and do a u-turn.

I enjoy the thoughtful, intelligent, reasoned comments of both TROY and Wanderlust, and would miss them if they were not allowed to post on a site, the whole point of which is to air views even if they conflict with others'.

Nailed it for me Okocha. Report the facts and help guide policy, it’s part of working together same as any group work.

As for Cummings, I think he’s self isolating - however even before then he seemed to have taken more of a backseat. As the chief proponent of ‘herd immunity’ in conflict with Hancock and his allies (all reportedly of course) I wonder if he’s lost his shine from this crisis. His career has been based on debunking experts and going against the grain. This is clearly not the time to do so.

xmiles wrote:

wessy wrote:

However all life is political and in time the gloves wil once again be off, no one should lose sight that we started this pandemic in a very poor state due in full to this government and BJ played a leading role in the austerity that led to NHS staff not receiving any worthwhile pay rises, the burseries being stopped so we had fewer nurses, and the total destruction of social care, and of course the depleted stock on PPE and ventilators.  Support now ,question later will be the outcome. keep safe.

Well said wessy.

Brexit has also made things worse with the exodus of many doctors and nurses and the ridiculous failure to participate in EU wide initiatives over things like ventilators.

Totally agree X Brexit is a whole other level of crap heading our way but think we have enough to worry about without opening the Brexit debate as well lol.

Never mind where is Priti Patel. Where is Rees-Mogg? I am sure we could all benefit from his words of wisdom.

gloswhite wrote:I'd forgotten about her TROY, but I had noticed  before this virus took hold that she went into hiding immediately after the first day or so of the argument around her. With her way of working, I doubt very much she would be of use in this situation. I think she would just charge ahead with very little sensitivity.

Update on Priti Patel this morning. I’m not allowed to post links as I’m a ‘new member’ - but it’s in the Press today Yvette Cooper criticising her for swerving select committees.

Almost as if they read Nuts.

Also again highlights the importance of government scrutiny at this time.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I'd forgotten about her TROY, but I had noticed  before this virus took hold that she went into hiding immediately after the first day or so of the argument around her. With her way of working, I doubt very much she would be of use in this situation. I think she would just charge ahead with very little sensitivity.

Update on Priti Patel this morning. I’m not allowed to post links as I’m a ‘new member’ - but it’s in the Press today Yvette Cooper criticising her for swerving select committees.

Almost as if they read Nuts.

Also again highlights the importance of government scrutiny at this time.

I think that's to prevent potential spammers and that once you make a certain amount of posts that restriction is lifted.

Until then if you want any links posting just say so and I'm sure someone will post them up for you.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/08/priti-patel-accused-of-avoiding-mps-scrutiny-during-national-crisis

It does seem strange that the Home Secretary isn't a prominent public figure at this time?

Although even if she has fucked up and made the situation worse that it needed to be I don't see how 

a) highlighting it now and creating anger and distrust in the government at this time is beneficial to anyone right now?

b) will it change anything that has already happened? and,

c) has it even been revealed by scrutinising the government - seems the political knives where already out for her before the crisis and really even kicked off here (her bullying/Chief Civil Servant quitting and take out unfair dismissal against her) she's obviously been shunted out of the frontline by her party some weeks ago and not someone integral to what's happening now who has suddenly done something wrong, such as the Scottish Health advisor who didn't follow her own advice.  She may well have a few policy skeletons in her cupboard and know where others are buried but what can be gained by revealing them now?  If people begin to not trust the government then what's the alternative - anarchy, would that be better for us all right now?

There's a time and a place for everything, let's defeat this thing first and hold people to account once we've got through it, not now.

For info: members with less than a week registration are unable to post external links

Yes makes sense on the scammer point Sluffy. Thanks for digging out that link.

Select committees are an important part of the democratic process in this country, it’s all part of policy. The problem with bypassing these until it’s all over is that by then it’s too late and given the importance of the current issue that’s a risk not worth taking.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes makes sense on the scammer point Sluffy. Thanks for digging out that link.

Select committees are an important part of the democratic process in this country, it’s all part of policy. The problem with bypassing these until it’s all over is that by then it’s too late and given the importance of the current issue that’s a risk not worth taking.

You're welcome.  As I say if you want any links posting up before your week is up just say and I'll get around to it if no one else has already done so.

I believe you are wrong, or at least used to wrong terminology, when you say selected committees (SC's) "are all part of policy" - they are not.

The government of the day creates the policy which is enacted in law when it has successfully passed through Parliament, where the policy is challenged democratically through the opposition party voting on /making amendments to it

SC's are generally responsible for overseeing the work of government departments - and are not part of the policy making machinery as such.  For instance they played no part in Blair's Labour Government going to war over 'weapons of mass destruction', the vital part they played was delving into the matter AFTER the event - not prior or coterminous to it, as you seem to be implying.

SC's aren't there to be part of/create policy, nor even challenge it, - that's a matter for all political parties at Parliament to vote on - they are there to oversea that the government departments have done things properly in the determination of policy that has been enacted, or has fallen short of what the policy had intended to achieve.

Government has passed legislation in respect of coronavirus and SC's can and will no doubt look to see that everything was done for the right reasons but as coronavirus is amongst us and spreading as it is, then I believe it's certainly far too early to make a reasoned judgement as to how well or not the relevant government departments have dealt with the policy formulation to deal with it, nor is even the right vehicle to do so.

Much more likely in my opinion is that a public Inquiry will be held once the virus is beaten in much the same way as the Chilcot Inquiry was held in respect of the Iraq War and following the Butler Review into the 'weapons of mass destruction'.

These things are done after the event - not leading up to or during them.

Political comment however can be made at anytime but personally I don't think it is in the nations interest for party politics to be in place whilst we are in effect in a 'war' environment.