Homegloswhite wrote:Hi KP, good to see you back
Good to see you mate.
It's a bit like Hotel California round here!
Black Lives Matter
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sunlight
Boggersbelief
Keegan
BoltonTillIDie
xmiles
Natasha Whittam
finlaymcdanger
Sluffy
karlypants
RangersDave
Cajunboy
okocha
gloswhite
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21 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:02
karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 38250
Join date : 2012-08-04
Good to see you mate.
It's a bit like Hotel California round here!
23 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:15
Guest
Guest
gloswhite wrote:
You need to watch/listen to more television programmes.
Feel free to enlighten me. Tearing down tributes to racists is removing their celebration, not deleting history.
Also -BLM has never claimed to be ‘only black lives matter’. That’s a deliberate right wing distortion aimed at riling up simpletons. The movement is for unity.
24 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:25
gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
If references are removed from aspects of our past lives, be it statues, monuments, or writings, and then not referred to, are you not deleting history for the upcoming generations?
25 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:29
karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 38250
Join date : 2012-08-04
All will happen now is that the white people will start to kick off back against the blacks and then we will have massive unrest.
The trouble is that we are not a racist country and very tolerant in my opinion but people will fight back because of this and racism will now start again due to the rioting and damage to the statues.
It's coming...
The trouble is that we are not a racist country and very tolerant in my opinion but people will fight back because of this and racism will now start again due to the rioting and damage to the statues.
It's coming...
26 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:35
Guest
Guest
gloswhite wrote:If references are removed from aspects of our past lives, be it statues, monuments, or writings, and then not referred to, are you not deleting history for the upcoming generations?
I think the key thing here is that nobody has suggested writings should be deleted - that would be abhorrent.
Remove celebrations of racists, put them in museums or replace them with information about the vast damage they did.
This country caused untold damage across the world through the empire, it’s finally time we recognise that.
Last edited by T.R.O.Y. on Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:44; edited 1 time in total
27 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:39
karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 38250
Join date : 2012-08-04
Troy, I know you have mentioned this in the past with pictures and that but a genuine question, are you classed as a black minority out of interest?
28 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:41
Guest
Guest
With respect Karly - that’s none of your business.
29 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 22:47
karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 38250
Join date : 2012-08-04
T.R.O.Y. wrote:With respect Karly - that’s none of your business.
Which states you are obviously not then.
31 Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 10 2020, 23:58
Sluffy
Admin
T.R.O.Y. wrote:gloswhite wrote:If references are removed from aspects of our past lives, be it statues, monuments, or writings, and then not referred to, are you not deleting history for the upcoming generations?
I think the key thing here is that nobody has suggested writings should be deleted - that would be abhorrent.
Remove celebrations of racists, put them in museums or replace them with information about the vast damage they did.
This country caused untold damage across the world through the empire, it’s finally time we recognise that.
Colston's statue was erected in respect of his philanthropy not as a celebration of being a racist.
It seems to me that perhaps his statue should have been removed and put somewhere more relevant and in line with modern day thinking of him, perhaps the Bristol museum?
Fwiw the statue was made almost 200 years after his death by the Victorians of Bristol, recognising his philanthropy - no doubt the same Victorians sending children up chimneys and down the mines and sending people to the poor house.
The point everyone seems to have missed is that in the context of the times they lived, no one knew any better - it was the norm - Colston made his money from slavery and the Victorians sent little (white) boys and girls to work in dangerous and life threatening conditions, to earn them their millions.
We are much better educated now, we know better - they at the time didn't.
I think it is wrong to judge them by our modern day values - they didn't 'do' the things they did knowing them to be wrong, they did them because that's what people did at that time.
When I was a lad everybody smoked, cars ran on leaded petrol and they put asbestos in schools and hospitals to stop fires - all that's changed now because we know better.
No doubt in years to come, people will look back and protest about some of the things we're doing now, thinking they were the right things to be doing - but clearly in the fullness of time and with better learning and education they prove not to be. That's how life and society progresses.
Colston was making his money before Isaac Newton apple had hit him on the head - that's how far back we are going!
Yes he made his money from slavery but he gave plenty to the poor and needy of Bristol - and that's why he was remembered and had a statue made to honour him, and not because he was some sort of an racist icon or something.
350 years later perhaps it was time to be more sensitive to how the world now views things but where do you draw the line? Slaves built the pyramids around 5,000 years ago - should we knock those down too?
People should be judged and held to account in their own times and not century's later - everybody is wiser in retrospect - and to my mind the pulling down of Colston's statue was to make a statement to this generation here and now and not as a condemnation of something that happened when Isaac Newton was dodging apples from falling on his head.
32 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 04:49
finlaymcdanger
Frank Worthington
Last week I read that Colston's company was responsible for the deaths of 20 thousand slaves during transportation to the Caribbean.
Your claim that 'no one knew any better' and 'it was the norm' back then is utter bullshit, Sluffy.
Philanthropy my ass. It's called fucking genocide!
Your claim that 'no one knew any better' and 'it was the norm' back then is utter bullshit, Sluffy.
Philanthropy my ass. It's called fucking genocide!
33 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 06:53
Guest
Guest
Oh right Germany should have left all the Nazi bits up then, shouldn’t judge them really products of their own time and all that. They just didn’t know any better.
34 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 08:25
Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Posts : 17854
Join date : 2012-11-30
Age : 53
Location : Burnage, Manchester
I don't think that the people with statues who were associated with slavery need to be written out of history but there shouldn't be statues of them up now.
Better education of what went on during the slavery era needs to happen so future generations are aware of what went on.
Better education of what went on during the slavery era needs to happen so future generations are aware of what went on.
35 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 09:20
okocha
El Hadji Diouf
Look at it from the point of view of a black person having to walk past a statue glorifying a slave-trader every day, and, at the same time, experiencing disproportionate amounts of stop-and-search in their daily lives. Then they see our leading cabinet members and Trump using language that does nothing to calm matters.
It's a recipe for heightened emotions and resentment that will inevitably lead to trouble when enough oppressed and disadvantaged people come together, as they so much more easily can these days.The demonstrations have been remarkably restrained overall, with just a few pockets of unacceptable violence picked up and emphasised by our less responsible media outlets.
Many of the protesters have included deeply concerned white citizens or university students and academics with a social conscience. It's reassuring that apologies have come from some of our star entertainers who've had a good look at themselves. If only our government ministers could also express sincere apologies and empathy, perhaps feelings would not rise so high in our multi-cultural society.
It's a recipe for heightened emotions and resentment that will inevitably lead to trouble when enough oppressed and disadvantaged people come together, as they so much more easily can these days.The demonstrations have been remarkably restrained overall, with just a few pockets of unacceptable violence picked up and emphasised by our less responsible media outlets.
Many of the protesters have included deeply concerned white citizens or university students and academics with a social conscience. It's reassuring that apologies have come from some of our star entertainers who've had a good look at themselves. If only our government ministers could also express sincere apologies and empathy, perhaps feelings would not rise so high in our multi-cultural society.
36 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 09:32
okocha
El Hadji Diouf
I don't believe that "no one knew better". The human conscience has always existed. We all instinctively know right from wrong.
What slave-traders did know was that they could take advantage and exploit the disadvantaged for huge personal profit. Perhaps their subsequent philanthropy was conscience-driven??
What slave-traders did know was that they could take advantage and exploit the disadvantaged for huge personal profit. Perhaps their subsequent philanthropy was conscience-driven??
37 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 10:51
boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Jimmy Savile also made a lot of money for charity. Should we now replace the plaque on his old house in Scarborough? Was removing it trying to delete history?
38 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 11:45
Sluffy
Admin
finlaymcdanger wrote:Last week I read that Colston's company was responsible for the deaths of 20 thousand slaves during transportation to the Caribbean.
Your claim that 'no one knew any better' and 'it was the norm' back then is utter bullshit, Sluffy.
Philanthropy my ass. It's called fucking genocide!
okocha wrote:I don't believe that "no one knew better". The human conscience has always existed. We all instinctively know right from wrong.
What slave-traders did know was that they could take advantage and exploit the disadvantaged for huge personal profit. Perhaps their subsequent philanthropy was conscience-driven??
No we don't.
All we know is that our bodies are hard wired over countless years of evolution to survive and whatever common values we are taught in the community we inhabit.
We are still basically animals under a thin veneer of civilisation that we developed in recent years. Look at the atrocities 'ethnic cleansing' in what was Yugoslavia in the mid 1990's (Bosnian War) and more recently just a few years ago by IS in Syria and Iraq. Seems that it might even still be going on in Myanmar with the Rohingya's. The veneer is still very thin at times.
Do you think those people, their communities and their country's didn't want it to happen - of course they did.
Slavery has been going on since the year dot and we still have it today 'modern slavery' as it is termed.
The Atlantic slave trade as we are talking about started in 1526 apparently and only started to become 'questionable' in the 1770's, over 250 years later.
I would say 250 uninterrupted years of doing something was considered the 'norm' rather than the exception, wouldn't you?
We all know it to have been wrong now - but it clearly was not an issue to most/all back in those years.
Colston lived from 1636 to 1721, so was born when slave trading had been going for 100 years and died 50 years before anyone started to think it wasn't right - so why would anyone think he was doing anything wrong at that time?
I'm not defending Colston or anyone else for that matter, merely saying they were a product of their time and should be judged as such in that context and not retrospectively.
George Washington was a slave owner, do people think he was a racist and should have is Mount Rushmore 'statue' blown up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery
Andrew Jackson owned 200 slaves and his head is on twenty dollar notes, are people burning them - are you Fin?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves
Of course we all know better now but only because we've become more civilised and enlightened over the last few of hundred years or so.
Let's not forget though who enslaved all the African's in the first place for the likes of Colston to buy and transport them to the Americas because it wasn't us 'whites', it was in fact their fellow African 'brothers'.
Many nations such as the Ashanti of present-day Ghana and the Yoruba of present-day Nigeria were involved in slave-trading. Groups such as the Imbangala of Angola and the Nyamwezi of Tanzania would serve as intermediaries or roving bands, waging war on African states to capture people for export as slaves. Historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University have estimated that of the Africans captured and then sold as slaves to the New World in the Atlantic slave trade, around 90% were enslaved by fellow Africans who sold them to European traders. Henry Louis Gates, the Harvard Chair of African and African American Studies, has stated that "without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa
It simply was how it was at the time and should be judged in that context.
39 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 11:48
Guest
Guest
karlypants wrote:All will happen now is that the white people will start to kick off back against the blacks and then we will have massive unrest.
The trouble is that we are not a racist country and very tolerant in my opinion but people will fight back because of this and racism will now start again due to the rioting and damage to the statues.
It's coming...
Personally think a race war is just a wet dream of the far right. Hardly been much in the way of counter protests have there? I think all reasonably minded people are on a similar track with this. Nobody condones violence, and fortunately there hasn’t been much. What’s good is that the message is resonating and conversations are developing as to what needs to change.
40 Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 11 2020, 11:58
gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
An excellent piece Sluffy, especially the highlighting of the African's own involvement in the slave trade, something not a lot of people are probably aware of. I wasn't.Sluffy wrote:
No we don't.
All we know is that our bodies are hard wired over countless years of evolution to survive and whatever common values we are taught in the community we inhabit.
We are still basically animals under a thin veneer of civilisation that we developed in recent years. Look at the atrocities 'ethnic cleansing' in what was Yugoslavia in the mid 1990's (Bosnian War) and more recently just a few years ago by IS in Syria and Iraq. Seems that it might even still be going on in Myanmar with the Rohingya's. The veneer is still very thin at times.
Do you think those people, their communities and their country's didn't want it to happen - of course they did.
Slavery has been going on since the year dot and we still have it today 'modern slavery' as it is termed.
The Atlantic slave trade as we are talking about started in 1526 apparently and only started to become 'questionable' in the 1770's, over 250 years later.
I would say 250 uninterrupted years of doing something was considered the 'norm' rather than the exception, wouldn't you?
We all know it to have been wrong now - but it clearly was not an issue to most/all back in those years.
Colston lived from 1636 to 1721, so was born when slave trading had been going for 100 years and died 50 years before anyone started to think it wasn't right - so why would anyone think he was doing anything wrong at that time?
I'm not defending Colston or anyone else for that matter, merely saying they were a product of their time and should be judged as such in that context and not retrospectively.
George Washington was a slave owner, do people think he was a racist and should have his Mount Rushmore 'statue' blown up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery
Andrew Jackson owned 200 slaves and his head is on twenty dollar notes, are people burning them - are you Fin?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves
Of course we all know better now but only because we've become more civilised and enlightened over the last few of hundred years or so.
Let's not forget though who enslaved all the African's in the first place for the likes of Colston to buy and transport them to the Americas because it wasn't us 'whites', it was in fact their fellow African 'brothers'.
Many nations such as the Ashanti of present-day Ghana and the Yoruba of present-day Nigeria were involved in slave-trading. Groups such as the Imbangala of Angola and the Nyamwezi of Tanzania would serve as intermediaries or roving bands, waging war on African states to capture people for export as slaves. Historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University have estimated that of the Africans captured and then sold as slaves to the New World in the Atlantic slave trade, around 90% were enslaved by fellow Africans who sold them to European traders. Henry Louis Gates, the Harvard Chair of African and African American Studies, has stated that "without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa
It simply was how it was at the time and should be judged in that context.
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