Black Lives Matter

@okocha wrote:When was the last time you heard/saw someone admit that they were wrong and that they'd changed their opinion due to the strength of the opposing argument? Football fans are the worst for digging their heels in and will swear black is blue rather than lose face. Politicians run them close! 

For what it's worth, I think Troy, Bonce, xmiles and Norpig are interesting to read, and are fair-minded. That's not to say that others can't be excellent too, but those 4 are consistently worth logging in for imo.

(Ok....I'm ready to field some flak for this!)

Thanks okocha.

I do try to base all my arguments on logic and reason but I know I have some fairly strong opinions about some matters.

Vic likes a debate.

A group of high-profile actors, including Kristen Bell, Stanley Tucci, and Aaron Paul, have been criticised after starring in an anti-racism PSA that has been deemed cringe-worthy.

The video, unveiled on Thursday (11 June), is titled “I Take Responsibility”.

In the clip, which comes after widespread protests against racism and police brutality, actors pledge to hold themselves accountable for “every unchecked moment”, “every not-so-funny joke”, “every unfair stereotype”, and other injustices.

The two-minute clip also features Sarah Paulson, Kesha, Justin Theroux, Debra Messing and Julianne Moore.

Many on social media have criticised the video for its tone, with some suggesting that it calls to mind the celebrity cover of John Lennon song “Imagine”, led by Wonder Woman star Gal Gadot, in March.



https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/i-take-responsibility-psa-video-kristen-bell-stanley-tucci-aaron-paul-reactions-a9561546.html?amp=1

@BoltonTillIDie wrote:A group of high-profile actors, including Kristen Bell, Stanley Tucci, and Aaron Paul

I can honestly say that I haven't heard of any of those.

Have you not seen Breaking Bad (Aaron Paul)?

@BoltonTillIDie wrote:Have you not seen Breaking Bad (Aaron Paul)?

No.

This particular episode of Fawlty Towers has been removed from UKTV. Personally I have no problem with it. Makes a good point about racism.

Yes this is something I find frustrating. Racism is clearly not condoned in Fawlty Towers. It is depicted as something ludicrous and reflects attitudes held at the time (and even now by some people).

It seems to have been removed because it might offend some people not because it is racist. There is far too much emphasis on not offending any body when the reality is that there is always somebody who will be offended - remember Mary Whitehouse or those who thought niggardly and brain storming were unacceptable terms?

Corporations are so scared to get caught on the wrong side of this they go over the top, then actions like this undermine the actual cause (systemic racism) and give the right-wing minor grievances they blow out of proportion. No doubt this is being framed as a left wing plot to crush British culture.

@okocha wrote:When was the last time you heard/saw someone admit that they were wrong and that they'd changed their opinion due to the strength of the opposing argument? Football fans are the worst for digging their heels in and will swear black is blue rather than lose face. Politicians run them close! 

For what it's worth, I think Troy, Bonce, xmiles and Norpig are interesting to read, and are fair-minded. That's not to say that others can't be excellent too, but those 4 are consistently worth logging in for imo.

(Ok....I'm ready to field some flak for this!)

CREEP!!!!!

This is not helpful. When their mistake was pointed out to the organisers of the petition they said they still wanted the statue removed because "we should not celebrate colonisers".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-53005223

The far right defending the cenotaph with nazi salutes today. Never underestimate just how thick these people are.

@T.R.O.Y. wrote:The far right defending the cenotaph with nazi salutes today. Never underestimate just his thick these people are.

I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetically sad.

Quite how urinating on a memorial to Keith Palmer (the police officer killed in the Westminster terror attack in 2017) is protecting symbols of British history is beyond me.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/13/man-urinates-next-to-pc-keith-palmer-memorial-during-far-right-protest

@gloswhite wrote:...people of colour are angry and frustrated, but they have to learn to engage, something they find very difficult...

People of colour have been systematically oppressed for hundreds of years and you are suggesting we "learn to engage" with the oppressors. The difficulty with this situation is that POC are asking those who enjoy privilege and power over them to stop abusing same. 
Who willingly gives up privilege and power? 

Completely agree Keegan, and I have to say that its good to see that the BLM protests have toned down the violence after the first outing. Common sense taking the lead.

Did you know that there is video of a white fellow wearing a mask and gloves, using a hammer to break the windows of store where BLM protesters were? His face wasn't completely covered, so his eyes and forehead were visible. His ex-wife identified him as a Police Officer, but his superiors denied it was him. The challenge is far greater than you might imagine!

What I don't get, and I'm walking on egg shells so as to try to not offend anyone, is that the vast number of cases we see over here from America is the police only being there in the first place because the people ending up dying were apparently committing offences in the first place.

George Floyd was allegedly using counterfeit money, Michael Brown (Ferguson riots) was apparently shoplifting, Eric Gardner was illegally selling loose cigarettes and now Rayshard Brooks was driving under the influence and fell asleep at the wheel!

Now obviously non of those offences merited dying for and clearly some of the police officers knowingly and deliberately went far in excess of what was required but the police were there for a reason and that all the people who died/were killed, seemingly resisted arrest (and in Brown's case attacked the officer).

I'm certainly not in a position to judge but it seems to me that if there was no crime being committed in the first place, the police wouldn't have been involved and no one would have died that day.

Or am I looking at things too simplistically?

@Sluffy wrote:What I don't get, and I'm walking on egg shells so as to try to not offend anyone, is that the vast number of cases we see over here from America is the police only being there in the first place because the people ending up dying were apparently committing offences in the first place.

George Floyd was allegedly using counterfeit money, Michael Brown (Ferguson riots) was apparently shoplifting, Eric Gardner was illegally selling loose cigarettes and now Rayshard Brooks was driving under the influence and fell asleep at the wheel!

Now obviously non of those offences merited dying for and clearly some of the police officers knowingly and deliberately went far in excess of what was required but the police were there for a reason and that all the people who died/were killed, seemingly resisted arrest (and in Brown's case attacked the officer).

I'm certainly not in a position to judge but it seems to me that if there was no crime being committed in the first place, the police wouldn't have been involved and no one would have died that day.

Or am I looking at things too simplistically?

For starters, George Floyd was found to have tendered a valid bill - not counterfeit. The problem, Sluff, is that in America black people are assumed to have committed an offense and that is how the Police treat them. I saw an experiment where a white guy was standing on the side of a road in a town where open carry is permitted, with a semi-automatic rifle. Nobody paid him any mind. After maybe 30 mins, a black man took his place with the same rifle. Ten minutes later he was lying face down on the ground with maybe 6 Police cars with sirens on and who knows how many officers. Despite being told that it was a legal weapon and the purpose was to determine if he would have been treated differently, the officers insisted on taking him in for questioning. Just today, I saw another incident where an Amazon driver was thrown facedown on the ground and cuffed for "parking backwards". Young black dude parked his truck, got a parcel and delivered it, but before he could get into the truck, a white police officer pounced, threw him down and cuffed him and called for backup. These things would never happen to you in the States and must seem like a mesed up fairy tale, but I could visit and my Jamaican accent gets me roughed up and cuffed, or worse. These officers choked Floyd to death over alleged forgery, but a white man went into a black church and murdered ten people in cold blood and was given a bullet proof vest as he was escorted from the church in case of reprisals, and they stopped for a burger on the way to the station. Look it up if you think I'm lying.

It is so bad that some black men flee at the sight of policemen and even that doesn't help - a older black male (late 50's early 60's, I'd bet) was riding a bicycle and a white cop called out to him to stop. Dude tried to ride away and got shot in the back and died. He was unarmed, had nothing illegal, not at all close to the cop, but the cop "feared for his life" and killed him. No charges filed, cop still serving and protecting to this day. Remind me to tell you about Darren Rainey  who was imprisoned on drug abuse charges and officers thought it would be fun to boil him to death in a shower. No charges filed against them. And so on, and so on, and so on. Look up Tamir Rice who wasn't yet 13 when he was killed. No charges.

A homeless black woman lied about her address in order to get her child into a better school (give the child a better chance at life, etc) and was sent to prison for 5 years. A rich white woman lied and paid a bribe to get her child into a prestigious university and was sentenced to 14 months (of course good behaviour comes into play, so six months tops).

Thanks for the insight, no wonder that there's such a massive and widespread groundswell of protesting against what seems like institutional racism by the police in America.

I've actually had dealings twice with American policemen whilst on holiday there, the first when I was pulled over for 'swerving' on an motorway and the second for speeding.

In the UK once you are on a motor way you basically drive in a straight line and any traffic joining it 'merges' into it from an entrance filter lane adjoining it for a third of a mile or so.  Seems in America that's not the case and the joining traffic stays in their 'lane' and the existing motorway traffics lane dog legs accordingly to accommodate it.  I not knowing this was simply holding my lane when all of a sudden vehicles suddenly 'cut' into it causing me to swerve to avoid it.

It just so happens there was a police car behind me who pulled me over.  Once he could see I was a tourist who had made a simple and unknowing mistake he became very helpful and even give directions and guided me part way to our destination, Niagara Falls.

The second for speeding was me rushing along a road (a three carriage motorway type road) to get to the next town (tens of miles away) to find a motel for the night, as it was late and dark with no one about.  I think the speed limit was 60mph but I was doing 70 (which is the speed limit over here) and maybe pushing 80 on the down hill sections.  I'm not making excuses, I was in the wrong but there was only my vehicle on the road, I never passed anyone, the road was that empty and I don't even recall seeing much if any traffic traveling in the opposite direction.  Anyway out of nowhere I could see a car in the distance and could see it was gaining on me so guessed that it might be a policeman - and it was.

Again after finding out I was a tourist and clearly just looking to find a motel for the night for me and the family, was friendly and helpful and didn't give me a ticket.

I guess like everything there are good and bad people in every job and maybe I was traveling in areas where the colour of your skin was not such a big issue and crime wasn't a big problem and so the policemen I met weren't on edge or something and more relaxed in dealing with me? I was also fully compliant and respectful to both officers also and totally accepted I was in the wrong both times - don't know if that also helped in how they dealt with me also, maybe it did with some of the examples you have given above about how others are frightened of being stopped by the police?

Obviously in the twenty-first century the colour of your skin should not be an issue and until we are able to get to that point then I guess we can't claim to be yet civilised.

Hopefully though that day will come soon, here's hoping anyway.

@Keegan wrote:Did you know that there is video of a white fellow wearing a mask and gloves, using a hammer to break the windows of store where BLM protesters were? His face wasn't completely covered, so his eyes and forehead were visible. His ex-wife identified him as a Police Officer, but his superiors denied it was him. The challenge is far greater than you might imagine!

I wasn't aware of this, but it seems that this kind of behavior is far more usual than many think.
When I was serving in Germany, (circa 1982), 5 of us went on a liaison visit to an American site. We were there for a couple of days, and a black Sergeant looked after us. A really nice chap. 
The first night we all came back from a boozy night out, including the sergeant, to the bar that was just on the camp. After a few minutes he said he had to leave. When we asked why, he said that the guys in the corner would beat him up for mixing with white men, and if we tried to stop them, all hell would break loose. There were two bit fat hayseeds sat there watching us. We told him to stay, but he was off before we could do or say anymore.
Seeing all these stories coming to light in America doesn't surprise me whatsoever. Its about time the Police forces were cleaned up.

Wise words.

Taking the knee is from Game of Thrones apparently, still shocked by just how ignorant/thick the current cabinet are. Although given the cabinet was selected based on blind loyalty to a flawed Brexit ideology, maybe i shouldn't be.

Bloody hell, @DominicRaab! You are the foreign secretary!
How can you be so ignorant of what #TakeTheKnee is about. Get on google and look up Colin Kaepernick, now!pic.twitter.com/fM7YIpZNqc

— Femi (@Femi_Sorry) June 18, 2020

I've never watched an episode of GoT in my life, ditto an American Football game. I couldn't name a single player past or present.

What's your point? That a British MP should know everything about American fantasy thrillers and an American sport?

My point is that as Foreign Secretary I expect him to know more about arguably the single most important cultural movement of his time in office. What sort of standards are we supposed to hold these fools to?

@T.R.O.Y. wrote:My point is that as Foreign Secretary I expect him to know more about arguably the single most important cultural movement of his time in office. What sort of standards are we supposed to hold these fools to?

Surprised he didn't seem to know/was wrongly briefed but is race such a big issue in the UK as it is in America?

I know there were big demonstrations throughout the country and issues around statues (and now business and institutions - Greene King and Lloyds of London) of people who we now know to have behaved wrongly compared to our present day values - some several generations later, but how much of that is genuine grievances and how much was reflective of American solidarity?

I would guess the vast majority of UK protesters were under the age of thirty but UK law has outlawed racial discrimination since the 1965 Race Relations Act - some 55 years ago.

Fwiw I've seen first hand over the years people play the race 'card' to get away with all sorts that would have resulted in disciplinaries/terminations for others, so it has had some significant bearing on our society's behaviour over the years.

I've also, rather bizarrely been subject to a form of racial discrimination myself when I was the only white guest at my mates Muslim wedding and the staff and owners of the reception seemed to have some sort of an issue with that.  All ended well though.

Yes more could be done to make life equal for all but similarly racism is simply not a one way street and I've seen people looking after their own (if I can put it like that) rather than be fair and equal to all.

At the end of the day people judge things from their own prospective, some are brought up in racist family's and thus become the next generation of racists themselves - and I'm mean that equally to blacks and whites - and every other ethnicity out there.

I don't know what the answer is, education can and will help but even if everything was fair and equal to everyone, there will be some who will always harbour racist thoughts, feelings and even sometimes, actions.

I would like to think that Jane Elliott's point about there only being one race - the human race - is possible but she is an idealist given that it isn't a level playing field.  The human race certainly needs to act as a collective and make global decisions if we are to maintain our impact on the planet at a sustainable level because it's clear it won't work with the "nations" model which focuses on short term self-interest rather than the future of the species - which could be wiped out in as little as a hundred years from now.

Racism is still an issue in this country, the Windrush scandal was only a couple of years ago and that was a stain on our country.

@wanderlust wrote:I would like to think that Jane Elliott's point about there only being one race - the human race - is possible but she is an idealist given that it isn't a level playing field.  The human race certainly needs to act as a collective and make global decisions if we are to maintain our impact on the planet at a sustainable level because it's clear it won't work with the "nations" model which focuses on short term self-interest rather than the future of the species - which could be wiped out in as little as a hundred years from now.

I intend to be cryogenically frozen. Should I cancel?  

Lusty, give me a little hope.