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62 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 15:25
Sluffy
Admin
@boltonbonce wrote:Bringing the tone down a bit Wessy, as an endurance athlete yourself, how are toilet breaks dealt with. Is it just a question of doing a Paula Radcliffe? Bit difficult on a bike.
Let's deal with this one first.
On the longer stages it isn't uncommon for the riders as a bunch to stop at the side of the road on an 'empty' stretch' and all have a wee!
It's more unusual to need a poo but it does happen and a very famous incident happened in the Tour of Italy a couple of years ago when Tom Dumoulin had an upset tummy and had to go - even when he was leading the Tour itself (he was in the 'pink' jersey - meaning he was the leader at the time like the yellow jersey means the same in the TdF) and ended up losing the overall lead because of his 'pit stop'!
There was a 'grey' area as to whether or not his rivals should take advantage or not of his situation - they did!
He did however win the all important Time Trial a day or so later to take back the lead and ended up as the deserved Tour winner - he really should have kicked on from there as he was almost certainly the best GC in the world at that point but seemed to 'freeze' and has never pushed on from there. Froome outsmarted him completely at the following years Giro with perhaps the greatest stage win this century so far (and I'm not exaggerating either - it was remarkable what he did that day).
Anyway Tom's poo stop, none of the graphic stuff though!
63 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 16:01
Sluffy
Admin
@wessy wrote:Slufffy genuine question because those of us who love endurance events have had many problems over the years with the drug issue, How clean is cycling now?
I ask because i have spent most of my life competing in distance events, 12 marathons, many fell races, The Three Peaks 23 miles with over 5000 feet of climbs, I was part of a relay team that ran the Pennine Way and the Coast to Coast pathways, so i have paid my dues so to speak.
Why is this relevant ? well i watched the last stage (Sunday)in wide mouthed amazement, after 4 hours in the saddle the riders hit the final climd 17.4k (over 10 miles) of steep ascending, the guys at the front wound it up and slowly split the peloton and crushed last years champion, with a sprint finish to win the stage.
I was truly awe struck clapping the winner, BUT like in my sport if what you are seeing is drug induced then it takes away from the achievement, In my sport Mo Farah poses this question, am I seeing a truthful performance ?
whats your take.
It's an unanswerable question really - for now at least - and we will only really know in years to come if and when the real truth comes out - but for now at least I don't think so - or only confined to the odd one or two.
The reason I think this is because both the teams and the cycle sports body itself knows that another major drugs scandal will probably see all the big sponsors (who really pay for the teams to exist in the first place) will drop out and the Olympics may well scrap cycling events (particularly those outside the velodrome).
The real difference, if you think about it for a moment (and now knowing a bit more about cycling in the last few weeks than perhaps you knew before) is that the elite GC riders aren't in fact participating in an endurance race as such - their team is doing that, they are simply passengers aboard their 'train' so to speak, until really the final big climb of the day.
For instance on Sunday's race, Jumbo-Visma (featuring Tom Dumoulin, who I mention above, as a 'super domestique...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestique#Super-domestique
...a rider good enough to be a GC rider himself on another team but riding in the service of his team leader in the team he's on) more or less delivered Roglic to less than 10km from the finish in order for him to 'start' his race - if you see what I mean.
All the other GC's more or less kept in Jumbo/Roglic slip stream to the 10km and battled it out from there.
I don't know enough about the science of the different sports but I would also guess that it's probably easier on the body sitting down aerodynamically for a cyclist on a distance race than a person running a distance race?
In the Armstrong era there were some blatant signs that something wasn't right when certain riders who shall we say were 'big units' were suddenly up at the front and even winning mountain stages - that simply shouldn't be happening in a weight to power ratio over such elevations they climbed.
The French 'knew' what was going on with Armstrong - but they knew all the French riders were doping too!
As I say it is all part of the theatre of cycling, you know the old 'oh yes he's doping, oh no he's not', sort of routine.
As I've asked before where do you draw the line on any sport - footballers used to have cortisone injections for instance - that is/was certainly used to help them to perform, for instance.
Just enjoy the moment and enjoy the scandal too if someone IS found to have doped in the current era.
I think fwiw all the big names ride clean - but you never know for certain!
64 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 16:47
boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Have my doubts about some of them. 
65 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 17:26
Sluffy
Admin
The strangest bike position I've ever seen is the one that Froome did once on the TdF (he's never done it since).
This clip is about 5 minutes long but worth a watch because the bloke who uploaded it did his own analysis as what was going on leading up to it and (probably) why it's never been used since.
It's a bit 'Americanised' how he does it but it is a good explanation and gives people a better understanding of why things aren't always how they seem to be, if you don't have a deeper grasp as to what is happening and why.
Froome won the Tour that year - and his main rival Nairo Quintana who was certainly good enough to have won it and has never done so before or since - mainly it would seem because of his attitude of 'superiority' and expecting others to do the leg work for him if he has no team mates left to do it - as in this instance. The clip makes mention of this.
Certainly worth a watch.
This clip is about 5 minutes long but worth a watch because the bloke who uploaded it did his own analysis as what was going on leading up to it and (probably) why it's never been used since.
It's a bit 'Americanised' how he does it but it is a good explanation and gives people a better understanding of why things aren't always how they seem to be, if you don't have a deeper grasp as to what is happening and why.
Froome won the Tour that year - and his main rival Nairo Quintana who was certainly good enough to have won it and has never done so before or since - mainly it would seem because of his attitude of 'superiority' and expecting others to do the leg work for him if he has no team mates left to do it - as in this instance. The clip makes mention of this.
Certainly worth a watch.
66 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 17:29
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
Another very informative summary thank you, i take your point re impossible to tell at this point, remarkable performances will always sadly receive scrutiny due to the times we live in, and yes time will tell.@Sluffy wrote:
It's an unanswerable question really - for now at least - and we will only really know in years to come if and when the real truth comes out - but for now at least I don't think so - or only confined to the odd one or two.
The reason I think this is because both the teams and the cycle sports body itself knows that another major drugs scandal will probably see all the big sponsors (who really pay for the teams to exist in the first place) will drop out and the Olympics may well scrap cycling events (particularly those outside the velodrome).
The real difference, if you think about it for a moment (and now knowing a bit more about cycling in the last few weeks than perhaps you knew before) is that the elite GC riders aren't in fact participating in an endurance race as such - their team is doing that, they are simply passengers aboard their 'train' so to speak, until really the final big climb of the day.
For instance on Sunday's race, Jumbo-Visma (featuring Tom Dumoulin, who I mention above, as a 'super domestique...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestique#Super-domestique
...a rider good enough to be a GC rider himself on another team but riding in the service of his team leader in the team he's on) more or less delivered Roglic to less than 10km from the finish in order for him to 'start' his race - if you see what I mean.
All the other GC's more or less kept in Jumbo/Roglic slip stream to the 10km and battled it out from there.
I don't know enough about the science of the different sports but I would also guess that it's probably easier on the body sitting down aerodynamically for a cyclist on a distance race than a person running a distance race?
In the Armstrong era there were some blatant signs that something wasn't right when certain riders who shall we say were 'big units' were suddenly up at the front and even winning mountain stages - that simply shouldn't be happening in a weight to power ratio over such elevations they climbed.
The French 'knew' what was going on with Armstrong - but they knew all the French riders were doping too!
As I say it is all part of the theatre of cycling, you know the old 'oh yes he's doping, oh no he's not', sort of routine.
As I've asked before where do you draw the line on any sport - footballers used to have cortisone injections for instance - that is/was certainly used to help them to perform, for instance.
Just enjoy the moment and enjoy the scandal too if someone IS found to have doped in the current era.
I think fwiw all the big names ride clean - but you never know for certain!
Whatever the truth is at this point i am enjoying the tour, more so because being retired affords the luxury of having free time to watch.
I did pick up on the point that the GC teams did deliver the star riders at the perfect point to attack, very impressive.
For the lay person it is very difficult to understand how the top guys can take a rest while still cycling 175k approx every day. Many things happen that are impressive, like badly injured cyclists still completing the course and being able to make the start line the next day, and the ability to re engage after a puncture or jump from one group to another, and how quickly a massive time gap can be reeled in.
Great viewing.
67 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 18:04
Sluffy
Admin
One thing to bear in mind also is that the Tour stages (particularly the long ones) are not ridden flat out - sometimes they are even ridden in a dawdling way at times - particularly depending how things have panned out from previous days and the overall position of the Tour at the time. Unofficial agreements are made between teams to 'not fight' for this one and recover from the day before (or in preparation for a tough day tomorrow).
Presumably as a distance runner you don't run flat out all the time and maybe even try to slow the race down if you are leading it perhaps?
My point being is that the Tour's finished line is three weeks away - and not all or nothing every single day. If all the GC's agree a truce for a day then nobody really minds too much because it gives lesser riders and smaller teams a chance for a stage win with effecting the race overall.
There is also honour (and enhanced career earnings) in finishing the Tour and there's been some Trojan efforts by some injured riders to have done so American Lawson Craddock breaking his shoulder on the first day (Stage 1) and finishing it in Paris three weeks later - during the race he set up a go fund me page to help his local cycling club and ended up (because of his bravery) raising over $200k.
Interview with him here towards the end of that year Tour.
Note they mention 'Lanterne rouge' a lot definition here -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterne_rouge
Presumably as a distance runner you don't run flat out all the time and maybe even try to slow the race down if you are leading it perhaps?
My point being is that the Tour's finished line is three weeks away - and not all or nothing every single day. If all the GC's agree a truce for a day then nobody really minds too much because it gives lesser riders and smaller teams a chance for a stage win with effecting the race overall.
There is also honour (and enhanced career earnings) in finishing the Tour and there's been some Trojan efforts by some injured riders to have done so American Lawson Craddock breaking his shoulder on the first day (Stage 1) and finishing it in Paris three weeks later - during the race he set up a go fund me page to help his local cycling club and ended up (because of his bravery) raising over $200k.
Interview with him here towards the end of that year Tour.
Note they mention 'Lanterne rouge' a lot definition here -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterne_rouge
68 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 18:26
Sluffy
Admin
As for catching up after a puncture - it obviously depends how far into the race you get one, near the end with people really racing you simply can't.
During most of the race though what happens is if you are the 'star' of the team, your team mates will wait for you to get it fixed then pace you back to the peloton safely and without wasting too much of your energy.
If you are just a normal team member (a 'domestique' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestique )
you make your own way back but you do that (kind of illegally!) by slipstreaming your team car that's just helped replace your tyre, to the 'caravan' of all the other team cars, then advance up through the caravan by slipstreaming all the other cars, until you re-join the back of the peloton.
As for the massive time gaps being reeled in, this usually happens to close down a breakaway when the race is nearing the end of the stage.
In simple terms the peloton with more riders, many of them having frequently sheltered in the peloton itself, can ride much faster than a small group of riders who may be tiring from having less time to recover with having to constantly take their turn on the front of the breakaway group.
The riders and teams usually have it down to a fine art as to when they need to speed up to catch the breakaway which they do more times than not - but not always!
Another factor with the breakaway is when it gets close to the winning line, riders begin to think about the win for themselves and may not do turns on the front to save their energy for the sprint at the end. Things start to get a bit game playing amongst themselves and allows the peloton to close them down even faster than if they weren't trying to psyche each other out for the win.
I've seen some heart-breaking moments when riders who have been out in the front all day - and deserved the win - caught literally feet away from the finish line.
All part of the theatre of the event - wanting the underdog to win when knowing they most probably won't!
During most of the race though what happens is if you are the 'star' of the team, your team mates will wait for you to get it fixed then pace you back to the peloton safely and without wasting too much of your energy.
If you are just a normal team member (a 'domestique' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestique )
you make your own way back but you do that (kind of illegally!) by slipstreaming your team car that's just helped replace your tyre, to the 'caravan' of all the other team cars, then advance up through the caravan by slipstreaming all the other cars, until you re-join the back of the peloton.
As for the massive time gaps being reeled in, this usually happens to close down a breakaway when the race is nearing the end of the stage.
In simple terms the peloton with more riders, many of them having frequently sheltered in the peloton itself, can ride much faster than a small group of riders who may be tiring from having less time to recover with having to constantly take their turn on the front of the breakaway group.
The riders and teams usually have it down to a fine art as to when they need to speed up to catch the breakaway which they do more times than not - but not always!
Another factor with the breakaway is when it gets close to the winning line, riders begin to think about the win for themselves and may not do turns on the front to save their energy for the sprint at the end. Things start to get a bit game playing amongst themselves and allows the peloton to close them down even faster than if they weren't trying to psyche each other out for the win.
I've seen some heart-breaking moments when riders who have been out in the front all day - and deserved the win - caught literally feet away from the finish line.
All part of the theatre of the event - wanting the underdog to win when knowing they most probably won't!
69 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 19:52
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
It really is very technical and very tactical, some of your explanations i have witnesed just through watching this year, like the slip streaming and the agreement among teams, i guess this is all agreed with the race directors for each team, even noticed the clever hand over of drinks were they keep hold for a couple of seconds.
I still find it hard to see the Peleton let a biggish group like today gain 12 minutes and not worry, i realise that they know that no one in the group is a threat to any of the categories so no danger to the standings, for me the hardest bit is (hard to explain) but because you watch a seperate race daily you don't really see the time advantages build up. probably for me because all the names are new and foreign sounding lol. getting to know the teams now at least thats a start.
I hope someone picks up all the litter they throw away lol Sluffy what got you into cycling?
I still find it hard to see the Peleton let a biggish group like today gain 12 minutes and not worry, i realise that they know that no one in the group is a threat to any of the categories so no danger to the standings, for me the hardest bit is (hard to explain) but because you watch a seperate race daily you don't really see the time advantages build up. probably for me because all the names are new and foreign sounding lol. getting to know the teams now at least thats a start.
I hope someone picks up all the litter they throw away lol Sluffy what got you into cycling?
71 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 21:27
Sluffy
Admin
@wessy wrote:It really is very technical and very tactical, some of your explanations i have witnesed just through watching this year, like the slip streaming and the agreement among teams, i guess this is all agreed with the race directors for each team, even noticed the clever hand over of drinks were they keep hold for a couple of seconds.
I still find it hard to see the Peleton let a biggish group like today gain 12 minutes and not worry, i realise that they know that no one in the group is a threat to any of the categories so no danger to the standings, for me the hardest bit is (hard to explain) but because you watch a seperate race daily you don't really see the time advantages build up. probably for me because all the names are new and foreign sounding lol. getting to know the teams now at least thats a start.
I hope someone picks up all the litter they throw away lol Sluffy what got you into cycling?
I don't know really!
I used to read the papers from cover to cover ever since I was little (used always be the Daily Mirror and The People on a Sunday - I come from a true working class background and have never forgotten unlike it give me free schooling, a council house and decent wages for my parents) and used to like listening to the news on the TV and radio and I guess that's why I've developed all sorts of various interests over the years no doubt.
I remember reading about the great Eddie Merckx in the 1960's - only really a sentence or two in the paper but began to look for the report for the next day, and the day, after and the one after that, etc and I guess I started to recognise one or two of the riders names.
It really wasn't until the TdF started to be televised on our tv over here that I began to put faces to names of the riders and from how the commentators and experts explained things during the race, that I kind of self taught myself as to a deeper understanding of what was going on, the races within the race, so to speak.
There've been a few absolutely jaw dropping moments over the tears Hinault and Greg LeMond battling it out for the Tour win - and they were fighting against each other even though they were in the same team, Irishman Stephen Roche appearing through the mist on his way the Tour, Floyd Landis superlative solo attack to enable him to win the Tour AND the shock (or maybe not that big a shock after seeing what he had done!) of being stripped of his Tour win after Paris and for me the best of the lot Froome incredible attack from nowhere to turn the Tour of Italy on its head and go on to win it!
There's been plenty of other drama on and off the bikes and I do love the events, it is sort of like a story developing over days and weeks - and sometimes over months and years - there is real tragedy that can and sometimes happen - I can remember at least one death occurring during a Tour - and sometimes you wonder how there isn't more.
Geraint Thomas going over a cliff for instance!
You seem to be picking things up just fine Wessy, stick with it and you'll get more familiar with the riders and teams and grasp more as to who'd doing what and why - today for instance the GC boys were saving themselves for another day and allowing others who are too far behind on time to have their day - it seems to me that the plan was for Sky/Ineos to grab a stage win in order to get something out of a disastrous Tour for them and even then only managed second place with Carapaz. (Carapaz was really meant to be training for the later Tour of Italy which he won last year but they decided to take Thomas out of this years TdF and put Carapaz in - but clearly his training regime to get him into peak condition was set for a month after the start of this Tour and his performances up to now (to help Bernal) have clearly shown the folly of this move).
It's good that you are already picking up on things like 'sticky bottles' - they all do it, and the litter they throw away is usually seen as 'souvenirs' for the crowd although in very recent years they brought in a rule to throw stuff away in designated areas as doing their part in saving the environment.
Stick with it mate, I'm really pleased you are enjoying it and if you (or Bonce) have any more questions, just ask, I'm happy to help the best I can.
72 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 21:44
boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Just a question that's possibly relevant in our modern times Sluffy.
To the untutored eye, the sport appears to be 'white/European in make up. Is this a fact, or am I missing something?
Is it simply that African and far Eastern peoples have no interest in it? I know there was a chap called Yohann Gene, but he was French.
Is it simply like the British with baseball, not really interested?
To the untutored eye, the sport appears to be 'white/European in make up. Is this a fact, or am I missing something?
Is it simply that African and far Eastern peoples have no interest in it? I know there was a chap called Yohann Gene, but he was French.
Is it simply like the British with baseball, not really interested?
73 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Tue Sep 15 2020, 22:31
Sluffy
Admin
@boltonbonce wrote:Just a question that's possibly relevant in our modern times Sluffy.
To the untutored eye, the sport appears to be 'white/European in make up. Is this a fact, or am I missing something?
Is it simply that African and far Eastern peoples have no interest in it? I know there was a chap called Yohann Gene, but he was French.
Is it simply like the British with baseball, not really interested?
Nope, it is fair comment that the sport is white European in the main but I think it is more to do with where the sport is followed and watched - cycling is not really even considered a sport in England never mind Africa or anywhere else.
To be fair though cycling has tried to be more global, since my time the English speaking nations have competed and won - three seperate USA winners of the Tour (although two were thrown out for drug cheating), An Australian has won it, so to a Welshman.
Froome, although he riders under a British flag is actually born and raised in Africa, Russian's have won things including the 2012 Olympic Road Race (Wiggins - Belgium by birth - won gold in the Time Trial that year) BUT he had previously been banned as a drug cheat and his victory was widely seen as a slur on the sport.
The South American's have also become big players, winning Italy and Spain but not yet France.
Israel have just founded a team and are competing at this years Tour (Froome will be joining them next season too).
I remember a few years ago posting about the African company Qhubeka that gives away bicycles to the poor in Africa for free -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qhubeka
Maybe cycle racing is seen as an elitist sport beyond the means of many in Africa still? I don't know.
I also think you might find this link interesting about perceived racism in cycling as per this blokes personal experience -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/53663002
There doesn't seem to be anything stopping black kids in this country and Europe to progress in the sport though - then again where are all the Indians and Pakistani's who play football everyday in England in professional football teams???
Again I don't know, maybe there's clear and obvious reasons why they choose not to participate above and beyond any possible barrier of possible discrimination but clearly there is under representation as you state - maybe they just think it is completely eccentric and stupid sport for them to be doing maybe?
Perhaps it is just seen by them to be a quaint western European pastime?
74 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Wed Sep 16 2020, 17:24
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
Another brutal day in the mountains, astonishing performances can only applaud how fit these guys are. was hoping Carapaz would hang on but they pulled him back with superb timing, funnily enough Sluffy i was brought up on the same two newspapers, i also noted the lack of african or asian riders.
During the broadcast they actually explained the litter situation and how tough they are on anyone breaking the rule, also noted Bonce one rider actually taking a leak whilst on the bike with a team mate supporting him lol.
Getting to understand why certain groups do certain things now like the sprinters sitting it out today, and the stage winners team mate dropping off the lead group to do his paid job.
All facinating stuff will really miss this next week. Intend to watch your clips later sluffy thanks again.
One thing i can relate to is the close proximity of the fans and why sometimes the athletes lash out, not at the same level obviously but at London from say 20 miles to finish the more boisterous and noisy fans somehow can annoy you, by this time real fatigue sets in and concentration is high, the slightest distraction can put you off, i found this really distracting at times. Guess that had some bearing on Froome lashing out.
During the broadcast they actually explained the litter situation and how tough they are on anyone breaking the rule, also noted Bonce one rider actually taking a leak whilst on the bike with a team mate supporting him lol.
Getting to understand why certain groups do certain things now like the sprinters sitting it out today, and the stage winners team mate dropping off the lead group to do his paid job.
All facinating stuff will really miss this next week. Intend to watch your clips later sluffy thanks again.
One thing i can relate to is the close proximity of the fans and why sometimes the athletes lash out, not at the same level obviously but at London from say 20 miles to finish the more boisterous and noisy fans somehow can annoy you, by this time real fatigue sets in and concentration is high, the slightest distraction can put you off, i found this really distracting at times. Guess that had some bearing on Froome lashing out.
75 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Wed Sep 16 2020, 17:33
boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
The proximity of fans must be a worry in these troubled times. Wouldn't be difficult for a couple of terrorists to cause havoc live on TV. They'd see it as quite a coup.
76 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Wed Sep 16 2020, 18:22
Sluffy
Admin
@wessy wrote:Another brutal day in the mountains, astonishing performances can only applaud how fit these guys are. was hoping Carapaz would hang on but they pulled him back with superb timing, funnily enough Sluffy i was brought up on the same two newspapers, i also noted the lack of african or asian riders.
During the broadcast they actually explained the litter situation and how tough they are on anyone breaking the rule, also noted Bonce one rider actually taking a leak whilst on the bike with a team mate supporting him lol.
Getting to understand why certain groups do certain things now like the sprinters sitting it out today, and the stage winners team mate dropping off the lead group to do his paid job.
All fascinating stuff will really miss this next week. Intend to watch your clips later sluffy thanks again.
One thing i can relate to is the close proximity of the fans and why sometimes the athletes lash out, not at the same level obviously but at London from say 20 miles to finish the more boisterous and noisy fans somehow can annoy you, by this time real fatigue sets in and concentration is high, the slightest distraction can put you off, i found this really distracting at times. Guess that had some bearing on Froome lashing out.
Don't worry Wessy because of the virus messing up the cycling season, the Tour of Italy (the Giro) starts on the 3rd October for three weeks (it's usually run in May) and the Tour of Spain (the Vuelta) starts before the Giro even has time to finish, starting on the 20th October - loads of cycling to come yet!
In recent years (with Sky being so dominant at the TdF) these lesser two Tours have actually been more enjoyable and unpredictable to watch.
I can't promise the same this year but there's no reason why they should be equally as good and riders you will know like Thomas (Giro) and Froome (Vuelta) will be starting amongst the favourites to win GC.
One little trivia tip I don't know if you are aware of is that on a Tour (probably the same for non tour races to but I don't watch them as much) the team leader is always the person with a '1' as the last digit of their squad number - 1, 11, 21, 31 and so on.
So particularly in a mountain stage and you aren't quite sure of who the riders are, if you see cyclists with a '1' as the last digit of their number, those should be the ones to keep your eyes on to perhaps get an understanding of the tactics going on in the group at the time.
Sometimes of course the team leader is a sprinter, so you look out for the number '1's positioning themselves towards the end of the sprint sections.
77 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Wed Sep 16 2020, 20:52
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
Brilliant i assume the coverage is on normal telly? i have Virgin but not Sky Sports. if available to watch i'm in.@Sluffy wrote:
Don't worry Wessy because of the virus messing up the cycling season, the Tour of Italy (the Giro) starts on the 3rd October for three weeks (it's usually run in May) and the Tour of Spain (the Vuelta) starts before the Giro even has time to finish, starting on the 20th October - loads of cycling to come yet!
In recent years (with Sky being so dominant at the TdF) these lesser two Tours have actually been more enjoyable and unpredictable to watch.
I can't promise the same this year but there's no reason why they should be equally as good and riders you will know like Thomas (Giro) and Froome (Vuelta) will be starting amongst the favourites to win GC.
One little trivia tip I don't know if you are aware of is that on a Tour (probably the same for non tour races to but I don't watch them as much) the team leader is always the person with a '1' as the last digit of their squad number - 1, 11, 21, 31 and so on.
So particularly in a mountain stage and you aren't quite sure of who the riders are, if you see cyclists with a '1' as the last digit of their number, those should be the ones to keep your eyes on to perhaps get an understanding of the tactics going on in the group at the time.
Sometimes of course the team leader is a sprinter, so you look out for the number '1's positioning themselves towards the end of the sprint sections.
I only knew that the previous winner was number one, now that you point it out it makes perfect sense so will look out for that in future races thanks.
78 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Wed Sep 16 2020, 21:51
Sluffy
Admin
@wessy wrote:Brilliant i assume the coverage is on normal telly? i have Virgin but not Sky Sports. if available to watch i'm in.
I only knew that the previous winner was number one, now that you point it out it makes perfect sense so will look out for that in future races thanks.
I just watch it on ITV4, so I assume you can get that. Also on Eurosport if that's included in your package.
Yes, I guess we don't know what will happen to the virus between now and then but I imagine both governments would want the races to go ahead if they can possibly do so.
The Italian Tour is the senior of the two with a longer history and both Tours like their mountains! I don't know the teams rosters yet but will try a do a little review of each race nearer the time and try to point out the ones to watch (or at least the riders I know a little about).
I'm really pleased you are enjoying the Tour, I've banged on about how good the race/sport is for years with little to no interest shown by others who hadn't followed it previously, I find the three Tours one of the highlights of my yearly sporting watching and could never understand so many people having such closed minds about it - yes I know about the drugs - but even so.
The big thing now for GC is for Pogacar to go all in on an attack to give himself a chance of the win in Paris but that really is a very big ask against the might of the Jumbo Team. He needs to get back within around 10 seconds of Roglic to give himself a chance in the Time Trial where both of the riders are about equal to each other. Can't see him doing it myself but I'm fairly certain he'll give it a try anyway.
It should be funny anyway!
79 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Thu Sep 17 2020, 10:03
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
I have watched it on ITV4 and yes i have Eurosport, i think in terms of viewing, because its on 4 + hours a day i suppose if your working it's almost impossible to watch it live, however the highlight show would still tick all the boxes a real plus for retirement lol.
The other thing re viewing is it's a big ask to expect the wife to watch it as well, so Eurosport is second choice for me because i can watch ITV hub if it clashes with something she wants to watch on my laptop,
Yes the virus could still play a part, losing faith now that we will see any football again this season.
When i have watched it before once the leader was established it seemed to always pan out that they held on to the jersey (obviously i missed a lo,t just how it seemed) this year i can see how compettitive the GC race is, like you say the Jumbo team seem to have the ability to take Roglic all the way, but great to have someone breathing down his neck, hope the time trial doesn't clash with the Wanderers match? Pogacar is in the white jersey? so best under 26? not sure if anyone can take that off him?
Will be watching later. Imagine doing all the tour and a technical problem say a puncture on the time trial loses you the Jersey ? Could that happen.
The other thing re viewing is it's a big ask to expect the wife to watch it as well, so Eurosport is second choice for me because i can watch ITV hub if it clashes with something she wants to watch on my laptop,
Yes the virus could still play a part, losing faith now that we will see any football again this season.
When i have watched it before once the leader was established it seemed to always pan out that they held on to the jersey (obviously i missed a lo,t just how it seemed) this year i can see how compettitive the GC race is, like you say the Jumbo team seem to have the ability to take Roglic all the way, but great to have someone breathing down his neck, hope the time trial doesn't clash with the Wanderers match? Pogacar is in the white jersey? so best under 26? not sure if anyone can take that off him?
Will be watching later. Imagine doing all the tour and a technical problem say a puncture on the time trial loses you the Jersey ? Could that happen.
80 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Thu Sep 17 2020, 12:56
Sluffy
Admin
It can and does happen.
The Tour has 'evolved' over the years mainly in response to making more exciting for the TV audience when the race became more popular outside of continental Europe. Multiple things were tried - courses designed to suit various riders (to attract them to ride the TdF rather than the Giro/Vuelta - big stars bring bigger TV audiences) and designed to their strengths - Bradley Wiggins for instance was a great Time Trialist and ok on the mountains, so one year opted to do the Giro that had included 3 TT's (just to attract him) rather than the TdF that only had 2 that year and iirc totalled much less in mileage combined than the Giro - more TT mileage equates to the top TT boys gaining on their mountain climber rivals!
All sorts go on - in a good way sort of - one year there were a number of mountain stages as per usual but only a few stage finishes at the top - most that year was AFTER the last summit and ended back in the valley - the thinking behind that was that it suited the best French riders who could not keep up with the very best climbers at the peaks BUT were able to catch up with them on the decent.
The routs are known in advance, so in that sense there is nothing hidden but everyone knows what the planners of the race are hoping to achieve - and the Holy Grail is another French winner as the last one was getting on for 40 years ago!
Going back to my original point, in this Tour there is only one TT and that is on the last competitive stage - the following day into Paris the yellow jersey is not attacked. So Pogacar knows he has to get within about 10 seconds or so on the few stages before it, if he even wants to have a chance of winning yellow after the TT.
The TT haven't in previous years been crucial in determining the final winner (LeMond v Fignon dual in Paris apart) of the TdF until the last few years but a bad TT has most certainly cost dearly some former TdF favourites the chance being in the mix at the end.
The most famous occasion when the previous years winner missed the start of the 'baby' TT (called a prologue) that opened the 1989 TdF
http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/when-prologues-go-wrong-pedro-delgado-and-the-1989-tour-de-france/
Pogacar is in white for the best rider rider under the age of 26 but he is also leading in the King of the Mountains (the polka dot jersey) and that takes precedence as the senior shirt so he will be wearing that today.
Whoever is second to Pogacar in the white jersey competition will be wearing the white jersey today.
In the TT the riders set off in reverse order - so Pogacar will be the last but one to start and Roglic last. There's usually a couple of minutes between each rider starting to prevent slipstreaming, which in an individual TT is illegal (but not in a Team TT).
The Tour has 'evolved' over the years mainly in response to making more exciting for the TV audience when the race became more popular outside of continental Europe. Multiple things were tried - courses designed to suit various riders (to attract them to ride the TdF rather than the Giro/Vuelta - big stars bring bigger TV audiences) and designed to their strengths - Bradley Wiggins for instance was a great Time Trialist and ok on the mountains, so one year opted to do the Giro that had included 3 TT's (just to attract him) rather than the TdF that only had 2 that year and iirc totalled much less in mileage combined than the Giro - more TT mileage equates to the top TT boys gaining on their mountain climber rivals!
All sorts go on - in a good way sort of - one year there were a number of mountain stages as per usual but only a few stage finishes at the top - most that year was AFTER the last summit and ended back in the valley - the thinking behind that was that it suited the best French riders who could not keep up with the very best climbers at the peaks BUT were able to catch up with them on the decent.
The routs are known in advance, so in that sense there is nothing hidden but everyone knows what the planners of the race are hoping to achieve - and the Holy Grail is another French winner as the last one was getting on for 40 years ago!
Going back to my original point, in this Tour there is only one TT and that is on the last competitive stage - the following day into Paris the yellow jersey is not attacked. So Pogacar knows he has to get within about 10 seconds or so on the few stages before it, if he even wants to have a chance of winning yellow after the TT.
The TT haven't in previous years been crucial in determining the final winner (LeMond v Fignon dual in Paris apart) of the TdF until the last few years but a bad TT has most certainly cost dearly some former TdF favourites the chance being in the mix at the end.
The most famous occasion when the previous years winner missed the start of the 'baby' TT (called a prologue) that opened the 1989 TdF
http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/when-prologues-go-wrong-pedro-delgado-and-the-1989-tour-de-france/
Pogacar is in white for the best rider rider under the age of 26 but he is also leading in the King of the Mountains (the polka dot jersey) and that takes precedence as the senior shirt so he will be wearing that today.
Whoever is second to Pogacar in the white jersey competition will be wearing the white jersey today.
In the TT the riders set off in reverse order - so Pogacar will be the last but one to start and Roglic last. There's usually a couple of minutes between each rider starting to prevent slipstreaming, which in an individual TT is illegal (but not in a Team TT).
81 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Thu Sep 17 2020, 17:55
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
So many factors i realised again through watching that they must know the coourse in advance becuase they have mentioned that they "Recce" the leg makes sense. Also picked up on the various jersey's and pecking order.
The TT is it always the same distance ? If so what distance ? i remember watching Bradley a few years back when he smashed it.
Great again today the two at he front made it the perfect finish for them. I love watching Carapaz and Hirshe he came a cropper today his kit saved him from serious damage.
The Bahrain team have had good couple of days, and the two leaders are like shadows i think Roglic will have enough now baring accidents BUT you never know . Interesting few days ahead. New king of the mountains so guessing Pogacar goes back in white.
Took a look at Sagans sprint record in the tour awesome.
The TT is it always the same distance ? If so what distance ? i remember watching Bradley a few years back when he smashed it.
Great again today the two at he front made it the perfect finish for them. I love watching Carapaz and Hirshe he came a cropper today his kit saved him from serious damage.
The Bahrain team have had good couple of days, and the two leaders are like shadows i think Roglic will have enough now baring accidents BUT you never know . Interesting few days ahead. New king of the mountains so guessing Pogacar goes back in white.
Took a look at Sagans sprint record in the tour awesome.
82 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Thu Sep 17 2020, 18:55
Sluffy
Admin
No TT's like every other stage is variable from race to race, year to year. Sometimes they are circuits, sometime point to point, sometimes up mountains, sometimes a few kms, sometimes 30/40/50kms, etc, etc.
They even have Team Time Trials, which if you are a GC contender on a team that isn't good at TTT's ruins your chances before you really even start!
It really is a mixed bag - this year they've not ridden on the 'cobbled' roads (like Beaumont Road used to be like) - which is a big thing on the continent and causes no end of crashes particularly if the weather is wet. They've included a bit of 'gravel' stretches in recent Tours, which had some riders very concerned.
The only real constant for the TdF is a Paris finish on the Champs Elysees and that only became a mainstay about 30 years or so ago.
I'm pleased for the Sky/Ineos boys - the winner is Polish and has been a very exceptional rider in his own right and a mainstay in the team but I think he's finally over the peak in that he showed nothing last year and not much until today.
Carapaz is the new boy to the team and has already won the Giro last year - so is one to watch - clearly through no fault of his own he came to the Tour under prepared and it's only the last few days he's up to peak performance. The Yates brother (Adam) who is a twin (Simon) and is in this Tour will be joining Ineos next year as well.
Landa is the top dog at Bahrain and has the talent but he always comes up against someone better. Poels has been one of my favourite riders and helped Froome enormously to win many of his Tours but again age has caught up with him - it does with us all in the end.
Sagan has been the best (all-round) cyclist for most of the last decade but again he's probably on the downslope and Wout van Art will take his place as the best rider, sooner rather than later.
It's a good time to get interested in cycling right now because there is a changing of the guard going on, the likes of Froome, Sagan, Cavendish, etc are on the wain and the next generation - Roglic, Pogacar, van Art, Matthews are starting to push them aside - so you're in at the beginning of a new era of riders so to speak.
You've even spotted one yourself to follow with Hirshe.
As for the Paris stage it is regarded as the sprinters blue ribbon event of the season - Bennett and Ewan are the obvious two favourities but I just wonder with Sagan about to lose his green jersey if he will pull something out of the bag to win on the Champs Elysees?
Just another bit of trivia Carapaz is currently leading the King of the Mountains by 2 points over Pogacar and 7 over Roglic with just 12 points left to go - ten of them at the Time Trial!
They even have Team Time Trials, which if you are a GC contender on a team that isn't good at TTT's ruins your chances before you really even start!
It really is a mixed bag - this year they've not ridden on the 'cobbled' roads (like Beaumont Road used to be like) - which is a big thing on the continent and causes no end of crashes particularly if the weather is wet. They've included a bit of 'gravel' stretches in recent Tours, which had some riders very concerned.
The only real constant for the TdF is a Paris finish on the Champs Elysees and that only became a mainstay about 30 years or so ago.
I'm pleased for the Sky/Ineos boys - the winner is Polish and has been a very exceptional rider in his own right and a mainstay in the team but I think he's finally over the peak in that he showed nothing last year and not much until today.
Carapaz is the new boy to the team and has already won the Giro last year - so is one to watch - clearly through no fault of his own he came to the Tour under prepared and it's only the last few days he's up to peak performance. The Yates brother (Adam) who is a twin (Simon) and is in this Tour will be joining Ineos next year as well.
Landa is the top dog at Bahrain and has the talent but he always comes up against someone better. Poels has been one of my favourite riders and helped Froome enormously to win many of his Tours but again age has caught up with him - it does with us all in the end.
Sagan has been the best (all-round) cyclist for most of the last decade but again he's probably on the downslope and Wout van Art will take his place as the best rider, sooner rather than later.
It's a good time to get interested in cycling right now because there is a changing of the guard going on, the likes of Froome, Sagan, Cavendish, etc are on the wain and the next generation - Roglic, Pogacar, van Art, Matthews are starting to push them aside - so you're in at the beginning of a new era of riders so to speak.
You've even spotted one yourself to follow with Hirshe.
As for the Paris stage it is regarded as the sprinters blue ribbon event of the season - Bennett and Ewan are the obvious two favourities but I just wonder with Sagan about to lose his green jersey if he will pull something out of the bag to win on the Champs Elysees?
Just another bit of trivia Carapaz is currently leading the King of the Mountains by 2 points over Pogacar and 7 over Roglic with just 12 points left to go - ten of them at the Time Trial!
83 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Thu Sep 17 2020, 20:48
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
Yes i can see that a lot of change is a foot, so i do intend to try and watch the next event, thanks to you i feel i have a much better understanding, i actually knew everyone you summarised above lol, two weeks ago i hadn't heard of any. and some of the teams are begining to stick in my mind now so alls good. Right so the tour other than Paris can go anywhere (even the UK) on a yearly basis, makes it interesting i have realised though that they return to certain climbs from time to time. And that some are very famous within the races history.
They had a gravel section today, Cobbles cruel sods as if it's not dangerous enough.
The king of the mountains is poised to make great theatre. All about the sprints tomorrow?
They had a gravel section today, Cobbles cruel sods as if it's not dangerous enough.
The king of the mountains is poised to make great theatre. All about the sprints tomorrow?
84 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Thu Sep 17 2020, 21:26
Sluffy
Admin
What usually happens with the TdF (not always) but more often than not, is that every alternate year they will start the Tour in another country (we had it in Yorkshire not so long back, and London a few years earlier as well) and the second year start it somewhere in France.
The idea of starting it in other country's (apart from the money) is to widen it's appeal to a larger TV audience.
Perhaps I should mention that part of how the Tour is financed (and where it 'comes' and 'goes' to) is that towns and city's pay to host the stage 'start' or host the stage 'finish'.
The Tour coming to town brings lots of visitors, which means lots of business!!!
The TdF also usually alternates from year to year with the route broadly going clockwise around France one year and anti-clockwise the next. The two big mountain ranges being the Alps and Pyrenees and depending which way round the Tour is that year the one is raced before the other - and in the following year visa versa.
On a practical level in the Alps and Pyrenees there are that many towns and villages big enough to host the Tour and the spectators so you will often see places such as Lourdes, Gap and Pau for instance appearing more often than most everywhere else (bar Paris).
There are several iconic mountains on the Tour but they don't use them every year, quite rightly too as the enjoyment is in the wait until they appear in the Tour the next time.
The big two I would say being Alpe D'huez and Mont Ventoux (which you pronounce something like mon-von-two - easy when you know how)
Here's two famous British wins - one at each!
You might be right with a sprinter win tomorrow but it wouldn't surprise me if someone wins from a breakaway - Alaphilippe maybe?
My thinking being that GC won't go for it and its the TT the next day and Paris/sprinters blue ribbon Sunday, so it really is the last stage for most riders to win. Depends of course what people have left in their legs but there's not much team duty required from anyone other than the sprinters teams on Sunday and some good riders might have an eye on this one - Wout van Art for instance.
It's going to be fun to find out as really the TT and Paris are in all honestly a bit dull to watch, so tomorrows race is going to be the last exciting one - unless something unexpected happens!
The idea of starting it in other country's (apart from the money) is to widen it's appeal to a larger TV audience.
Perhaps I should mention that part of how the Tour is financed (and where it 'comes' and 'goes' to) is that towns and city's pay to host the stage 'start' or host the stage 'finish'.
The Tour coming to town brings lots of visitors, which means lots of business!!!
The TdF also usually alternates from year to year with the route broadly going clockwise around France one year and anti-clockwise the next. The two big mountain ranges being the Alps and Pyrenees and depending which way round the Tour is that year the one is raced before the other - and in the following year visa versa.
On a practical level in the Alps and Pyrenees there are that many towns and villages big enough to host the Tour and the spectators so you will often see places such as Lourdes, Gap and Pau for instance appearing more often than most everywhere else (bar Paris).
There are several iconic mountains on the Tour but they don't use them every year, quite rightly too as the enjoyment is in the wait until they appear in the Tour the next time.
The big two I would say being Alpe D'huez and Mont Ventoux (which you pronounce something like mon-von-two - easy when you know how)
Here's two famous British wins - one at each!
You might be right with a sprinter win tomorrow but it wouldn't surprise me if someone wins from a breakaway - Alaphilippe maybe?
My thinking being that GC won't go for it and its the TT the next day and Paris/sprinters blue ribbon Sunday, so it really is the last stage for most riders to win. Depends of course what people have left in their legs but there's not much team duty required from anyone other than the sprinters teams on Sunday and some good riders might have an eye on this one - Wout van Art for instance.
It's going to be fun to find out as really the TT and Paris are in all honestly a bit dull to watch, so tomorrows race is going to be the last exciting one - unless something unexpected happens!
85 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Fri Sep 18 2020, 13:38
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
Very interesting how they keep the course fresh, didn't realise any of that thanks, now watched all the video clips some awesome stuff, after watching Froome and Thomas i still find it hard to grasp how a team can leave out such talent, i understand that only one rider within a team can be top dog, but it's seems a bit like leaving Messi out of the Argentina team lol.
Going to struggle today to watch all the race mu my mother in law just come out of hospital and we need to do her shopping so may record and watch later.
Sluffy todays questions lol
How does the team race count is it like in athletics whereby the first 3 or 4 out of the 8 count? or do all the team have to get over the line , and if so if a team loses a rider are they out of the team comp?
By my limited thinking if each team nomininates a team leader and the others are employed to get him over the line then the winner of the tour should come from one of the team leaders? is this always the case or could the yellow jersey go to anyone a number two in the squad if say the star is just not delivering assuming the team director would make a call. or does it just never happen.
Finally: noted that Froome is joining the new Isreal Team? do they move about annually or does it dependant on contracts like in football.
Going to struggle today to watch all the race mu my mother in law just come out of hospital and we need to do her shopping so may record and watch later.
Sluffy todays questions lol
How does the team race count is it like in athletics whereby the first 3 or 4 out of the 8 count? or do all the team have to get over the line , and if so if a team loses a rider are they out of the team comp?
By my limited thinking if each team nomininates a team leader and the others are employed to get him over the line then the winner of the tour should come from one of the team leaders? is this always the case or could the yellow jersey go to anyone a number two in the squad if say the star is just not delivering assuming the team director would make a call. or does it just never happen.
Finally: noted that Froome is joining the new Isreal Team? do they move about annually or does it dependant on contracts like in football.
86 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Fri Sep 18 2020, 14:44
Sluffy
Admin
Let's take Froome first.
Froome and Thomas are now in the twilights of their careers and although they still have the ability to turn it on at times, their best days are now behind them.
There comes a time when they have to move on, think Kevin Davies for instance, great player for us but simply kept in the team in the end more through sentiment than current performance and when the manager at the time eventually did what was right for the team at the expense of the player, it was him seen as the villain and not him doing the inevitable.
Froome and Thomas simply didn't deserve their places on the team when it was named and a gamble was made in bringing in Carapaz that didn't work out as they hoped it might. Froome and Thomas both have very good chances in their respective Tours to come and hopefully Froome will end on a high with Sky/Ineos before he takes his final big pay day contract with the Israel team and hopefully gets them established as a pro team for years to come.
Thomas is still under contract and is a very good team player so he would have no problems being part of Sky again but it isn't unheard of for teams to release cyclists still under contract to enable them to join other teams.
I don't know what will happen, I guess it will all boil down to money as usual - would Sky want to get his huge wage of the payroll in the Covid era and if so what other team would pay him what he wants as they are in the Covid era too!
There is a transfer window in cycling but it is more to do with riders moving to other teams at the end of their contracts rather than big money transfers as in football.
To be honest I've never been bothered much with the team race and how it is worked out.
I would have thought the same as you in that the first (say) four riders in each teams their points/time are added up and at the end of the race whoever's points/time is the lowest of all the teams win.
It doesn't necessarily follow that the GC winners team also wins the Team race, depends I guess on how many sacrifice themselves and finish way down on time in order to help their leader do well in GC.
I've found this that list the team results for last years TdF where Sky finish first and second with Bernal and Thomas but only came second as a team!
To be Fair though the team that came top is the team of Alaphilippe who led the race for most of it, Bora, the team that finished fourth had both Sagan and the rider who finished fourth overall in the Tour and the team that finished fifth had the third place rider.
The team that finished third though is a bit harder to work out why though? They had Nibali who was up there near the top before he crashed out but other than that most have had a solid team throughout I guess?
Sorry, I can't be too helpful on this one!
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-france/2019/startlist/teams-ranked
https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2019/
Hope your mum in law is ok and of course should be your first priority.
Maybe you can start to get her hooked on cycling now!!!
Sorry, forgot to answer another point you raised.
Sometimes the team plan changes to who is the best positioned rider on the Tour at the time. What I mean is that last year it could be argued that Thomas, who was team leader, should have won the Tour but events took a turn when one of the later stages was stopped before the end giving his team mate who was ahead on the road at that particular time the deciding advantage to win the Tour instead.
It's not uncommon to go into a race with two or even more team leaders and let the 'road' decide which of them to eventually all get behind.
This of course can and does lead to many internal team upsets and squabbles - and probably best to be avoided if you can.
Froome was the best rider when Wiggins won but played it straight as per his contract as being there to help Wiggins to win. The deal was the next year Wiggins was to stand aside and let Froome win but Wiggins went back on the arrangement and cause no end of problems for all concerned.
Thomas and Froome are examples of good team players with talent, Wiggins and Quintana bad team players with talent.
Up to the management to do the right thing because trying to please everyone doesn't always work.
Sky/ineos plan this Tour was to have Bernal as the leader and Carapaz as plan B but Carapaz wasn't ready in time for the race and lost too much time early on to be a viable alternative and meant Bernal was his top man down on helping him retain the title.
From what's happened since Carapaz seems to be a good team player with talent but I'm not fully convinced Bernal is - time will tell if I'm right or wrong about that.
Hope that gives you a better perspective on this issue - hope so anyway.
Froome and Thomas are now in the twilights of their careers and although they still have the ability to turn it on at times, their best days are now behind them.
There comes a time when they have to move on, think Kevin Davies for instance, great player for us but simply kept in the team in the end more through sentiment than current performance and when the manager at the time eventually did what was right for the team at the expense of the player, it was him seen as the villain and not him doing the inevitable.
Froome and Thomas simply didn't deserve their places on the team when it was named and a gamble was made in bringing in Carapaz that didn't work out as they hoped it might. Froome and Thomas both have very good chances in their respective Tours to come and hopefully Froome will end on a high with Sky/Ineos before he takes his final big pay day contract with the Israel team and hopefully gets them established as a pro team for years to come.
Thomas is still under contract and is a very good team player so he would have no problems being part of Sky again but it isn't unheard of for teams to release cyclists still under contract to enable them to join other teams.
I don't know what will happen, I guess it will all boil down to money as usual - would Sky want to get his huge wage of the payroll in the Covid era and if so what other team would pay him what he wants as they are in the Covid era too!
There is a transfer window in cycling but it is more to do with riders moving to other teams at the end of their contracts rather than big money transfers as in football.
To be honest I've never been bothered much with the team race and how it is worked out.
I would have thought the same as you in that the first (say) four riders in each teams their points/time are added up and at the end of the race whoever's points/time is the lowest of all the teams win.
It doesn't necessarily follow that the GC winners team also wins the Team race, depends I guess on how many sacrifice themselves and finish way down on time in order to help their leader do well in GC.
I've found this that list the team results for last years TdF where Sky finish first and second with Bernal and Thomas but only came second as a team!
To be Fair though the team that came top is the team of Alaphilippe who led the race for most of it, Bora, the team that finished fourth had both Sagan and the rider who finished fourth overall in the Tour and the team that finished fifth had the third place rider.
The team that finished third though is a bit harder to work out why though? They had Nibali who was up there near the top before he crashed out but other than that most have had a solid team throughout I guess?
Sorry, I can't be too helpful on this one!
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-france/2019/startlist/teams-ranked
https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/tour-de-france-2019/
Hope your mum in law is ok and of course should be your first priority.
Maybe you can start to get her hooked on cycling now!!!
Sorry, forgot to answer another point you raised.
Sometimes the team plan changes to who is the best positioned rider on the Tour at the time. What I mean is that last year it could be argued that Thomas, who was team leader, should have won the Tour but events took a turn when one of the later stages was stopped before the end giving his team mate who was ahead on the road at that particular time the deciding advantage to win the Tour instead.
It's not uncommon to go into a race with two or even more team leaders and let the 'road' decide which of them to eventually all get behind.
This of course can and does lead to many internal team upsets and squabbles - and probably best to be avoided if you can.
Froome was the best rider when Wiggins won but played it straight as per his contract as being there to help Wiggins to win. The deal was the next year Wiggins was to stand aside and let Froome win but Wiggins went back on the arrangement and cause no end of problems for all concerned.
Thomas and Froome are examples of good team players with talent, Wiggins and Quintana bad team players with talent.
Up to the management to do the right thing because trying to please everyone doesn't always work.
Sky/ineos plan this Tour was to have Bernal as the leader and Carapaz as plan B but Carapaz wasn't ready in time for the race and lost too much time early on to be a viable alternative and meant Bernal was his top man down on helping him retain the title.
From what's happened since Carapaz seems to be a good team player with talent but I'm not fully convinced Bernal is - time will tell if I'm right or wrong about that.
Hope that gives you a better perspective on this issue - hope so anyway.
87 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Fri Sep 18 2020, 17:10
Sluffy
Admin
Thought I would just throw this in is as part of the randomness and theatre that goes on in Tours!
Tour de France 2020: Lukas Postlberger abandons after being stung in the mouth by a bee
Lukas Pöstlberger has been forced to pull out of the Tour de France 2020 three days from Paris, after he was stung in the mouth by a bee.
The Bora-Hansgrohe rider was stung in the early kilometres of stage 19 of the Tour, as riders tried to forced a breakaway on the road from Bourg-en-Bresse to Champagnole.
Pöstlberger was then seen visiting the race medical car without around 160km left of the stage and looked to be in a lot of discomfort.
Shortly after, Bora-Hansgrohe announced on Twitter that he had been forced to abandon the race because of the sting.
The team said: “A bee stung Lukas in the mouth. Hope he will be fine.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/tour-de-france-2020-lukazs-postleberger-abandons-after-being-stung-in-the-mouth-by-a-bee-469053
Poor bloke, rode all that way around France just to get stung!
Tour de France 2020: Lukas Postlberger abandons after being stung in the mouth by a bee
Lukas Pöstlberger has been forced to pull out of the Tour de France 2020 three days from Paris, after he was stung in the mouth by a bee.
The Bora-Hansgrohe rider was stung in the early kilometres of stage 19 of the Tour, as riders tried to forced a breakaway on the road from Bourg-en-Bresse to Champagnole.
Pöstlberger was then seen visiting the race medical car without around 160km left of the stage and looked to be in a lot of discomfort.
Shortly after, Bora-Hansgrohe announced on Twitter that he had been forced to abandon the race because of the sting.
The team said: “A bee stung Lukas in the mouth. Hope he will be fine.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/tour-de-france-2020-lukazs-postleberger-abandons-after-being-stung-in-the-mouth-by-a-bee-469053
Poor bloke, rode all that way around France just to get stung!
88 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Fri Sep 18 2020, 20:29
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
Really appreciate the time you have given to help me understand, i feel i have picked up a lot but still struggle on a lot of the intricasis that pan out whilst the stages unfold. The commentators seem so on top of it yet i miss so much, but the main thing is i have really enjoyed this tour.
Only saw the highlights today but a great break by the Sunweb guy Andersen.
Two things from today when the group of around 12 got away, the commentator said when one guy tried to get across that he had no chance up against such a group. I was fine with that it made sense, however fast forward and Andersen goes off and the same group are chasing, he says the group wont make in roads on the leader ? They were correct but you would have thought that with such a large talented group they could have really gone for it.
Another interesting thing i was surprised on, tomorrows time trial obviously Roglic will be full on, and could also take the king of the mountains, BUT Carapaz can idle until he reaches the climb and only compare times on the climb. Makes sense but never thought that would be the case.
Bee sting how unlucky was that, however it happened to my mate whilst cycling when we where kids.
Also saw a clip in 2016 when a finisher had the arch balloon marker ? defalte in front of him bringing the rider crashing.
Mother in law is fine thank you
Only saw the highlights today but a great break by the Sunweb guy Andersen.
Two things from today when the group of around 12 got away, the commentator said when one guy tried to get across that he had no chance up against such a group. I was fine with that it made sense, however fast forward and Andersen goes off and the same group are chasing, he says the group wont make in roads on the leader ? They were correct but you would have thought that with such a large talented group they could have really gone for it.
Another interesting thing i was surprised on, tomorrows time trial obviously Roglic will be full on, and could also take the king of the mountains, BUT Carapaz can idle until he reaches the climb and only compare times on the climb. Makes sense but never thought that would be the case.
Bee sting how unlucky was that, however it happened to my mate whilst cycling when we where kids.
Also saw a clip in 2016 when a finisher had the arch balloon marker ? defalte in front of him bringing the rider crashing.
Mother in law is fine thank you
89 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Fri Sep 18 2020, 20:32
wessy
El Hadji Diouf
Team classification in the Tour de France; awarded since 1930, and the calculation has changed throughout the years. As of 2011, it is calculated by adding the times of the three best riders of each team per stage; time bonuses and penalties are ignored.
I remember the Wiggins win and at that time just couldn't understand why Froome put up with that situation. Not realising the protocals
I remember the Wiggins win and at that time just couldn't understand why Froome put up with that situation. Not realising the protocals
90 Re: Tour de France 2020 on Fri Sep 18 2020, 21:05
Sluffy
Admin
@wessy wrote:Really appreciate the time you have given to help me understand, i feel i have picked up a lot but still struggle on a lot of the intricasis that pan out whilst the stages unfold. The commentators seem so on top of it yet i miss so much, but the main thing is i have really enjoyed this tour.
Only saw the highlights today but a great break by the Sunweb guy Andersen.
Two things from today when the group of around 12 got away, the commentator said when one guy tried to get across that he had no chance up against such a group. I was fine with that it made sense, however fast forward and Andersen goes off and the same group are chasing, he says the group wont make in roads on the leader ? They were correct but you would have thought that with such a large talented group they could have really gone for it.
Another interesting thing i was surprised on, tomorrows time trial obviously Roglic will be full on, and could also take the king of the mountains, BUT Carapaz can idle until he reaches the climb and only compare times on the climb. Makes sense but never thought that would be the case.
Bee sting how unlucky was that, however it happened to my mate whilst cycling when we where kids.
Also saw a clip in 2016 when a finisher had the arch balloon marker ? defalte in front of him bringing the rider crashing.
Mother in law is fine thank you
The thing about the bit I've highlighted is what is happening in the stage at the time.
A group of riders will almost always chase down and catch a single one (or a much smaller group of riders) given enough time to do so - as the work of riding on the front is shared by more riders and thus they become less exhausted than the smaller group/lone rider.
HOWEVER if you are near to the end of the race and a rider/group goes, you will have to expend energy to catch them - but you don't want to knacker yourself catching them - you want others to do that - you want to be towed up to the breakaway rider/group and still be fresh enough to then attack yourself to win the stage.
So with just a few kms to go a rider breaking away like the lad today (another Sunweb win - very impressive for them this Tour) in effects turns the race into a time trial to the line because the group behind them stop working as a 'team' with a mutal interest to catch him but rather riding as a group of individuals more or less saying to each other - well you catch him, no you catch him, not me I'm tired, oh yeah sure pull the other one etc, etc - and all the time the rider off the front is gaining more and more seconds.
What the chasing group needed was someone in that group who had team mates who could sacrifice themselves to get him (and the rest of the group) to the lone rider and then himself be confident of winning from there.
The group just happened to have both Bennett and Sagan in it so what was the point of anyone else working hard to catch the rider in front knowing all they were in effect doing was towing the fastest sprinter in the race and more or less putting the win on a plate for him!
There's an article talking about what happened today that you might find explains it a bit better than I can.
Chase group air frustration as Søren Kragh Andersen solos to Tour de France victory again
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/chase-group-air-frustration-as-soren-kragh-andersen-solos-to-tour-de-france-victory-again-469146
Good to hear your mum in law is in fine fettle!
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