Will you boo if Bolton Players take the knee

I'd love it if politics could be kept out of sport.  Unfortunately, there are groups of people in most countries who don't/won't let that happen, whether that's by booing black players, making monkey chants or throwing bananas. Their actions/voices keep politics in sport.

Obviously, decent, right-minded folk can't let racists win, so have to be clearly visible across the globe standing (or kneeling)  for what's right for however long it takes. Keep it in the spotlight, even when the light is dimmed by ritual repetition. 

It must be horrendous to be targeted like Sterling or Rashford, for example, but it can't just be left to victims of abuse to make  the point. Doing nothing condones appalling behaviour. To avoid misinterpretation, perhaps consider changing the slogan to "All lives matter"??? Strengthen laws?? Educate the police?

Those who feel there are equally important issues to stand up for must fight for them too....but not at the expense of allowing racism to continue.

Yea !!!! What happened to Transfer rumours?????

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Whitesince63 - you mention you’d be right behind an anti-racism push. What sort of push is it you would be behind?

Not the thread, but would quite like an answer to this one.

wanderlust wrote:
I know that there are right wing groups attempting to discredit BLM but so far I've seen no actual evidence that they are trying to "stir tensions up" - just hearsay and politically motivated rhetoric.
But even if they are - and that would be in America, not here - it's irrelevant as the vast majority of British people see footballers taking the knee as a symbol of the movement to stop racial abuse - which obviously does exist and is proven.

And if that's what it means to the people, it's obvious that it hasn't gone anywhere near far enough because there is still a societal problem that needs to be resolved.

It's entirely understandable that those people booing are perceived as ignorant/racist or both given that they have nothing to lose by supporting the movement so they must have another motivation.

Sadly wander, just like those in football you’re completely missing the point. I also think you show a huge amount of naivety if you think there are only black activist groups in the US and not here. This was and largely still is, just about the most unracist country you could live in but is becoming more and more divided, principally because of the actions of groups like BLM and yet were supposed to sit at football matches watching players misguidedly taking part in a gesture that reeks of racism in itself. 

You’re response basically infers that I am a racist because I don’t support taking the knee and showing my disapproval of it and that others who think likewise must be too. As I said at the start, you are completely missing the point and sadly falling into the “agree with me or you’re wrong” camp rather than accepting that people have differing opinions. That they choose to show that opinion by booing does not make them against the principle, just against an obvious gesture considered by many as racist in itself, as is the Black Lives Matter mantra we’re supposed to just accept. What about White lives, brown lives and other colours in between? Ten Bobsworth point about all things that matter is a good one but where is the gesture for any of those. It’s dividing opinion, look at us on here, none of us racist but having to defend our opinion as if we are. Support anti racism, yes definitely but not this way.

Only repeating the question as you’ve said it again, what is your method for supporting anti racism 63?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Only repeating the question as you’ve said it again, what is your method for supporting anti racism 63?

Probably in his deeds, thoughts and actions in everyday life like I and millions of others do.

I think we are called the silent majority because we do it in real life than worry about being seeing to do it in gestures like taking the knee or marching around London.

What's your method of supporting anti racism?

My method is leaving it to those who suffer racism to define the solution.

The England team say taking the knee is how they want to do that, why do you know better?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:My method is leaving it to those who suffer racism to define the solution.

The England team say taking the knee is how they want to do that, why do you know better?

I never said I did did I?

Seems you are putting words in my mouth yet again...

Has Wilfred Zaha not suffered racism because he clearly believes taking the knee is wrong - do you know better than him?

Do the England team believe Zaha is wrong?  Does the England manager and captain (both white) know more about suffering racism than Zaha?  Are they more knowledgeable about it than him?

Zaha's got an opinion on it, the England team have an opinion on it - they can't both be right can they?

So it isn't as simple as those who suffer racism to define the solution is it because not everyone defines it in the same way.

The only way you can beat racism is by personal example, if enough people do so it starts to become the norm in society and behaviour starts to change.

If you knew me you would know I'm the last person to be racist - but it hasn't stopped one or two on here making out that I am.  63 has got his views on racism, it doesn't coincide with yours or Wanderlust's - that's all - if his view that taking a knee is racist in itself then explain to him why you believe it not to be.

I think the gesture has lost all meaning - and let's be honest it is borrowed from America and we do have a different culture and race relationship than they do, so maybe he has a point, maybe we need our own gestures or symbolism of being anti racist together rather than the Americanised version of it linked with their form of activism and politics behind it?

At the end of the day treating people with respect and as equals is what it is all about - shame people can't do that normally - but I live amongst people who can't even be arsed wearing a face mask at the local shop when the area is being surged tested door to door - so much for their respect to others!

It is what it is, you have goodness in your heart or you don't.  That's put into you as a child.  If it isn't then they can't teach it to their children and the cycle goes on.

I'll do my little bit in my own way, no doubt 63 is doing his in his way too, so whether we agree or disagree with taking a knee before a football match is utterly meaningless to us - and according to Wilf - even many of the players too!

And that’s fine - I agree with you, I don’t think you could or should force people to take part in these gestures or to believe they have meaning. It’s entirely up to each individual and that needs to be respected.

That goes both ways though, the boo boys just need to show a bit of respect and let the players get on with it. It’s hardly being forced down their throats watching 11 men kneel down for a few seconds.

Not saying either of you would boo by the way!

T.R.O.Y. wrote:And that’s fine - I agree with you, I don’t think you could or should force people to take part in these gestures or to believe they have meaning. It’s entirely up to each individual and that needs to be respected.

That goes both ways though, the boo boys just need to show a bit of respect and let the players get on with it. It’s hardly being forced down their throats watching 11 men kneel down for a few seconds.

Not saying either of you would boo by the way!

Well I will say it then TROY, yes I would boo because it seems to be the only way we have of making our voice heard amongst a woke, myopic club. As Sluffy says, we all display our views against racism in our own way and don’t need to have to join some group think to practise it. In my opinion, this gesture doesn’t in any way represent anti racism, quite the opposite in fact. I’d like a population that is totally colour blind, it shouldn’t make any difference to how you proceed in life and indeed to most people it doesn’t. That a group of multi millionaire footballers claim there’s systemic racism here is frankly preposterous. If they were a bunch of penniless urchins maybe I could understand it. 

I’m sure there are instances of people not getting jobs because they’re black but also because they’re women, have tattoos or a myriad of other reasons but if you’re black it’s always because your racist. It’s too easy a card to use and taking the knee is to me just another stunt except that this one is linked to a disruptive and obviously racist group and the numptys at the top of our game, ignore the no politics ruling and actually display the BLM badge on shirts. Thankfully, more and more in the game are seeing through this. The Scotland team have collectively decided they will not take the knee, as have several other Eastern European clubs. If they’re racist maybe you should boo them.

Not wishing to take part is an individuals choice.

Choosing to boo an anti racism statement is completely different - you are part of the problem, simple as that.

I think we all need to have more respect for the views of others and you being so soft you can’t see a team of men kneel down is a personal issue you need to address.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Not wishing to take part is an individuals choice.

Choosing to boo an anti racism statement is completely different - you are part of the problem, simple as that.

I think we all need to have more respect for the views of others and you being so soft you can’t see a team of men kneel down is a personal issue you need to address.

I've said my bit and you've accepted it so I'm fine with all of that.

I just post here over the logic in your statement above.

If not wishing to take part is an individual's choice - which of course it is - then why isn't wanting to take part an individual's choice also?

I mean no one is exactly holding a gun to their heads forcing them to do it are they?

Sorry, genuinely not sure what you mean there? As in why isn’t taking part by booing an individuals choice they’re free to make?

A person is equally free to make a choice to boo or not to boo - yes?

If they boo then we don't KNOW their reason for doing so - we are assuming their motive - yes?

You see booing as part of the problem because you perceive them to be booing an anti racism statement.

Because they want to boo doesn't necessarily infer they have a racist views does it?

Aren't we tarring people with 'our' opinion of things rather than understanding 'their' reasons for doing so?

Fwiw -

Boo
verb

‘Boo’ to show disapproval of a speaker or performer.

63 perceives the act of taking a knee not as an anti racist statement but as a racist statement in it itself - and that he why he chooses to boo.

Wilf and I perceive the gesture has lost all meaning - some may be booing to show they feel the same way and we should move on from it (a bit like clapping for carers - brilliant for the first ten weeks but a complete flop when they tried to bring it back a year on - circumstances and views had changed over that time although the symbolic action was exactly the same!).

Clearly the football world now has different views on taking the knee (I believe Scotland as now done a U-turn and will carry on doing it though), so there isn't universal support of it amongst themselves even - Wilfred Zaha for instance.  If Wilf was selected to play for England in the tournament would he stand or expected to take the knee, or even not selected simply to avoid the issue altogether???

I see it as becoming somewhat of a mess and quite frankly pointless any more, you clearly feel strongly about it - we can both be right at the same time but does that mean the knee should be taken or not?

I guess that's more determined on social pressure, if the England team stopped doing it what message would it be sending to the black community - do the black community in general (I don't mean the activists) wish it to continue, maybe the general feeling might be that it has had its day similarly to that of clapping for carers - I don't know?  But what is the default position, to keep taking the knee for ever - is that what society in this country wants - and if so what do we do when we play in other country's whose society believes the gesture is now meaningless - would our fans at the game boo them (in their own country) for not doing it???

Do teams take the knee at Sunday Pub league games - I don't know, although I suspect games haven't been played since Covid struck? - my point being if they don't do so themselves then they must believe it isn't such of a big deal any more and I would guess (as Wilf points out) that many professional players may well feel the same by now?

To my mind either everybody does it - it becomes part of the rules of the game, or there must come a time when everybody agrees to stop doing it - anything in between seems to be sending out mixed messages otherwise dependant on your own personal standpoint.

I’ve split this thread from the transfer rumours one.  Interesting debate but not for the transfer rumours thread

Theres no way of distinguishing boos from people who are against the gesture and boos from racists. So don’t boo the gesture, understand and respect that the players have their reasons and have chosen to do this.

Then make your point in a way that allows you to reason and explain your views. Booing achieves nothing except disrespecting the team.

The default position is to let the players choose, as they have. If you mandate doing it that really does lose all meaning.

Thanks BTID

Booing Bolton players has been my default setting for the last decade or so, it'll be hard to change.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Thanks BTID

Yes thanks BTID.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Theres no way of distinguishing boos from people who are against the gesture and boos from racists. So don’t boo the gesture, understand and respect that the players have their reasons and have chosen to do this.

Then make your point in a way that allows you to reason and explain your views. Booing achieves nothing except disrespecting the team.

The default position is to let the players choose, as they have. If you mandate doing it that really does lose all meaning.

Isn't taking away the right to do something sort of against the principle of the whole thing about equality and freedom for all?

And if the players can't even agree amongst themselves (See Zaha's views) then how can it possibly be the default setting?

Tbh I take your point and not wishing to be difficult I just think that your views are no more of a 'fit all' solution than anything else anyone has come up with.

I think if we had ended the knee after a set period in the same way we had for clap the carers then their would no longer be an appetite to be doing so now.

Just my opinion obviously - but I think the football world is 'stuck' with undertaking a gesture that no longer has the meaning it initially had.