How is the Tory government doing?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Sluffy wrote:If Boris and the Tory Government is so shit then why are they ahead in the latest polls by a clear 8 points?

YouGov poll from the 7th October (two days ago!!!)

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/10/07/voting-intention-con-39-lab-31-5-6-oct

Keir doesn't seem to have made much of an impact following conference then has he?

Hard to say but my view is there’s no credible alternative. I wouldn’t say the fact Johnson remains ahead in the polls is a sign of successful policy making, but they’re certainly winning the battle of PR and communication.

Tough to see a route back to power without a progressive alliance of sorts now, but can’t see Labour backing that any time soon.

As you’re keen to make the case, where do you think this government are succeeding in policy?

I'm not keen to make a case at all, I just post these things as a bit of realism to those who have it fixed firmly in their minds that all things Tory are shite.

One poster only a few posts above this one classifies the Conservative's  collectively as "toerags", what sort of unbiased, impartial and independent reasoning is that?

I've mention more than a few times that it isn't the Tory government isn't particularly that good that warrants voters to vote for them but rather how poor the other party's are, in that they certainly wouldn't vote for them!

At this time it is hard to see who else could win an election other than the Conservatives - what alternative have people got?

In simple terms Labour has lost all their support (and thus their seats) in Scotland to the SNP and I can't ever see them ever winning an overall majority again without them being won back again and even then they would need to win back something like 50 or 60 of the seats they lost when the Red Wall came crashing down at the last election as well!!!

Would Labour ever go into a coalition with the SNP - well I can't see it, if for no other reason that they want independence and if the got it then Labour would be back to where they are now in terms of seats.

Hard to see where the Conservatives could lose a 78 seat majority - and even if they did that would still make them the largest party - and, as we have seen before, the Ulster Unionist's and before them the Lib Dems - have both gone in to a coalition with them to form the government.

Labour's only chance in my humble opinion is to present themselves as a viable alternative government - and they simply can't do that if they don't show what is in their hand they hold!

They were utterly shambolic over the NI increase and everyone saw that they were missing in action and bereft of an alternative (funded) policy to put against it.

I hear you about the Labour leadership keeping their policy 'powder dry' but if you hold a trump card in your hand then why not play it?

If the Conservatives ignored it and went ahead with their own unpopular policy, Labour could repeatedly beat them over the head with it every day until the election - and if they amended/took in, some or all of the Labour policy, then Labour would similarly again trumpet to the elections that the government was so poor as to need to adopt Labour policies to get them out of the mess they are in!

To put it bluntly, there is only one show in town - the Conservatives - that's why people will vote for them - there isn't any other viable choice - which is what you  accept is the position too.

Labour needs a charismatic leader at the very least - they simply haven't got one, nor do I know of any apart from perhaps Burnham and personally I think he is a joke but others might not view him that way.

That's the reality of the situation as I see it - Johnson my be a buffoon but he is generally liked by most voters, and the Conservatives might well not have the best polices but no one is giving people the idea that they even got any, let alone any that are better!

That my friend is why the Conservatives carry an 8 point lead despite stumbling from crisis to crisis!

It all seems obvious to me, I can't understand why it isn't as obvious to many others as well?

Don’t know why you think it’s not obvious to more people given you have essentially repeated my simple point over the course of 15 paragraphs - there’s no viable alternative at the moment. 

This is a commonly held view, Starmers lack of policy and focus on internal politics isn’t cutting through (and why would it).

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Don’t know why you think it’s not obvious to more people given you have essentially repeated my simple point over the course of 15 paragraphs - there’s no viable alternative at the moment. 

This is a commonly held view, Starmers lack of policy and focus on internal politics isn’t cutting through (and why would it).

I'm talking about all the looneys who bang on all the time about how shit the Tory's are without giving a second thought there is no one else who are capable of winning the next election to replace them with!

I thought you would have at least grasped that?

On here alone we've had at least four threads (this one , the Brexit one, the Coronavirus ones and the Cronyism one) which all date back a number of years, where we have the same posters banging on month after month, year after year, venting their hatred against all the government has done/is doing, without any realisation or concept that there isn't any other party out there who could even form a government. let alone do things any better!!!

And that's not a pop at those on here, I see and hear that view on the streets and most definitely on social media (well I expect it on there actually - it's just par for the course really).

What do people think their constant moaning will achieve - it's akin to my mind to people thinking there are 'magic money trees' to pay for all that we can't afford to do, to having a 'magic Labour party' who will just suddenly appear and do everything perfectly from then on.

Neither exist, and if those who bang on ALL the time about how shit the Tory government is, actually thought about what realistic alternatives there where, then maybe they'd be more tolerant and less rabid about the situation we find ourselves in.

You'd think - well I would - that the opposition party's would be getting their acts together to help run the country better - in really what is our worst hour of need since the WWII.

I believed we should have had a coalition government right from the start of the pandemic and all would have equal ownership of all the decisions and actions taken and all the divisiveness since simply would not have happened - and which is still happening.

Failing that the opposition party's should be working towards the nation's best interests and not their own ideologies - there's a time and place for everything.

Well non of those things have happened and it has left some/many with a toxic hatred of the government with no alternative government in sight for the best part of a decade - that's certainly not going to work out well as both sides will become more extreme simply just to defend their positions - you know those two rules of politics I talk about  - win power/retain power!

Imo there needs to be a more tolerant acceptance of the government - they are not perfect but neither are they the Devil incarnate either.

Uber looney's such as Maugham stirring up the social media brain dead don't help but that's the environment we have now entered and live in.

We need to make the best of the mess we've made for ourselves - not actively continue to make it worse.

Don’t criticise government policy because the opposition parties aren’t offering any better?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Don’t criticise government policy because the opposition parties aren’t offering any better?

You're being obtuse again.

Work WITH the government in times of crisis - and stop the political point scoring - it gains absolutely nothing but stoking up further those who already have rabid hatred towards the government.

If the opposition haven't anything better then what's the point in criticising the government in what they are doing?

The house is on fire and people are criticising how it is being put out yet don't have an alternative plan to deal with it, let alone a better plan???

What do they want the government to do, nothing and watch the house burn down?

Isn't it better to do something now until someone can come up with a better plan than do nothing at all and watch the house burn down to the ground?

Do I really need to point out that the Labour party has basically committed political suicide over the last decade or so by being too busy having its own ideological civil wars and not focusing on what is need to win elections and run the country.

Well they are doing exactly the same things here - with their political point scoring - namely putting their political ideology before the country's needs at this time.

Can you think of one thing the Labour party has actually led on, to help the country, in the last few years?

I can't.

Marcus Rashford has been more influential in taking the lead and brining about change for the better - and he's just a footballer!

Maybe Labour should be looking towards recruiting him to their ranks, he's certainly more high profile and been more effective and successful than Starmer and the rest of the Labour party that's for sure!

Im just trying to understand your point, first you’re saying it’s about the ‘loonies’ on here, now you’re saying Labour shouldn’t be criticising if they have nothing better to offer. It’s impossible to engage with you when you jump between the two.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Im just trying to understand your point, first you’re saying it’s about the ‘loonies’ on here, now you’re saying Labour shouldn’t be criticising if they have nothing better to offer. It’s impossible to engage with you when you jump between the two.

Eh???

My original post you responded to was me posting up the latest poll showing Conservatives with an 8 point lead.

You asked me where I was making a case that the government is succeeding in power.

I replied that I wasn't making such a case merely posting to show a bit of realism to those on here with a absolute prejudice in respect of anything the Tory government does.

Clearly then I wasn't linking the 'loonies' on here with Labour's political point scoring was I.

To be polite though I took the trouble to answer the question you asked of me by saying I didn't think the Tory government is succeeding in power because of anything in particularly they do but because there simply isn't a creditable alternative government out there.

Yes that is what you said too - I noted that in my reply - but I wished to make the point quantitively in terms of the number of seats they would have to win or go into coalition )with others who held such numbers of seats, THEN win back the majority of the seats (and more!) that they lost in the last general election.

A mammoth task.

I went on to say they even lack intangible qualities such as a charismatic leader for the voters (and potential coalition party's) to rally around.

You decided to take my second and separate point I had made further leading to my view as to why I foresee a chasm will start to evolve between the left and right leading to more radicalisation from both sides.

Let's face it we can see this in action in the USA and it's truly poisonous.

It's even manifests itself in their Supreme Court in terms of judges appointed on their political and social views and not on their impartiality.

My belief is all our political parties need to step away from going down such a confrontational road but I'm also a realist and know there are too many people with their own reasons of seeking power/retaining power to do so.

So no, I've not 'jumped' anywhere, I've absolutely been clear about what I've been talking about.

I've no doubt, based on numerous times in the past, that you haven't bothered to read my posts (or not fully) that once again you've managed to get completely the wrong end of the stick.

And fwiw, I have not labelled the people on here as 'loonies'...

Sluffy wrote:And that's not a pop at those on here, I see and hear that view on the streets and most definitely on social media (well I expect it on there actually - it's just par for the course really).

I only asked you to show where you see successful government policy being implemented because you spend so much time defending them. 

You haven't done that, but instead continued complaining about Labour and loonies criticising the governments' actions. Critiquing government policy is the job of the opposition, but we both know that already so i'm really not sure what your point is.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:I only asked you to show where you see successful government policy being implemented because you spend so much time defending them. 

You haven't done that, but instead continued complaining about Labour and loonies criticising the governments' actions. Critiquing government policy is the job of the opposition, but we both know that already so i'm really not sure what your point is.

Does there have to be a point to what someone posts on social media?

I don't defend the government, I just state the obvious that no government in the world had prepared for a Covid pandemic and all did their best to cope in the ways they saw fit - in response to the hysterical outcry's we have on here.

Mistakes and bad decisions have happened - not just here - everywhere!

Labour wouldn't have got everything if they were in power at the time, nobody would.

It makes me laugh at those with the blind hatred and political prejudice some have seemingly bought into simply because they want to see it that way and no other.  I just put forward a more reasoned and realistic view to those who post that way on here because I don't want the site to be full of hate and ignorance - and it has been.

It's not my fault that the Labour Party has become unelectable and can't bring about anything like what a proper opposition party should be doing at this time, namely putting the country's needs first - they've done that to themselves.  

They certainly didn't cover themselves in glory over Brexit did they - I posted facts to show that too - maybe if they pulled their finger out at the time we wouldn't even have the Brexit outcome at all - and similarly they've chosen not to work much with the government to best deal with Covid and all that flows from it, they rather do spurious political point scoring instead.

If people don't want to open their eyes to what is stirring them in the face, then that's up to them but I'm happy to at least try to diffuse the anger and hatred of those who post such stuff on here.

I know I'm wasting my time but isn't everyone else who posts on social media too?

I mean what exactly does anyone get from doing it?

Isn't it just a distraction from real life?

Clearly for some/many it has become part of real life to them!!!

You've spent hours and hours arguing with me on here.

Why?

I'm retired and have plenty time to kill, do you?

I know you are blinkered in your outlook, I know I won't change your core beliefs but it amuses me to play your games.

What do you get from it?

Pursuing and attempting to "put right" a random bloke off the internet presumably for your own self-satisfaction?

What then is your point for behaviour like this?

Isn't this equally pointless and meaningless too?

The internet is for information and fun - not fake news and hatred.

Or at least it should be.

I post facts and information to counter the fake news and hatred of others off here.

It amuses me to do so.

That's all it is to me.

Nothing more.

I understood it to be the case that Starmer's first priority was to sort out the internal squabbling, particularly the anti-semitic conflict, which he seems to have done. He has appointed some good shadow cabinet ministers to key positions.

Meanwhile, he has left it to the Tories to continue to shoot themselves in the foot, so that he wouldn't come across to the public as simply point-scoring. Whenever possible, he has agreed with them on points of policy (not often, for obvious reasons!).

When the time is right, far nearer to a general election, he will launch more serious attacks, probably employing others suited to delivering with greater panache.

I've just read an excellent review of the Tory party conference which concluded that Johnson should give up his role in politics and instead become a stand-up comedian, given that his speech to the faithful was almost totally devoid of actual policy details but had them rolling in the aisles.

 I laughed too......

okocha wrote:I understood it to be the case that Starmer's first priority was to sort out the internal squabbling, particularly the anti-semitic conflict, which he seems to have done. He has appointed some good shadow cabinet ministers to key positions.

Meanwhile, he has left it to the Tories to continue to shoot themselves in the foot, so that he wouldn't come across to the public as simply point-scoring. Whenever possible, he has agreed with them on points of policy (not often, for obvious reasons!).

When the time is right, far nearer to a general election, he will launch more serious attacks, probably employing others suited to delivering with greater panache.

I've just read an excellent review of the Tory party conference which concluded that Johnson should give up his role in politics and instead become a stand-up comedian, given that his speech to the faithful was almost totally devoid of actual policy details but had them rolling in the aisles.

 I laughed too......

Hahaha...greater panache...!!!

Yeah right...

Anyway the point I'm making is that currently the conservatives hold 362 of the 650 seats - Labour hold 199.

To win outright control they need 326 seats - or to put it another way win 127 more seats at the next General Election.

That's simply not going to happen is it?

The next biggest party is the SNP - they hold 45 out of the 59 seats there - so if they win them all and go into coalition with Labour that still amounts to 258 seats - 68 seats short of a majority.

The next biggest is Lib Dem with 12, then the DUC with 8 - and both these parties have worked in recent coalition governments with the Tory's.

Next is Sinn Fein with 7 and they don't take their seats in parliament.

That leaves 17 other seats which includes the speakers.

The maths is simply against the Labour Party unless they win a landslide of Conservative seats.

I think they need more than a great deal of speakers with panache don't you?

https://members.parliament.uk/parties/Commons

okocha wrote:I understood it to be the case that Starmer's first priority was to sort out the internal squabbling, particularly the anti-semitic conflict, which he seems to have done. He has appointed some good shadow cabinet ministers to key positions.

Meanwhile, he has left it to the Tories to continue to shoot themselves in the foot, so that he wouldn't come across to the public as simply point-scoring. Whenever possible, he has agreed with them on points of policy (not often, for obvious reasons!).

When the time is right, far nearer to a general election, he will launch more serious attacks, probably employing others suited to delivering with greater panache.

I've just read an excellent review of the Tory party conference which concluded that Johnson should give up his role in politics and instead become a stand-up comedian, given that his speech to the faithful was almost totally devoid of actual policy details but had them rolling in the aisles.

 I laughed too......

I’m sure you’re right that’s what Starmers’ teams strategy is. Keep it light on policy to avoid scrutiny and leave it to the Tories to mess up - I’m not convinced it’s working though.

In terms of the squabbling, I wanted to see him unify the party. He stood on a left wing ticket of policies and he’s ditched them almost entirely - think what you like of the party’s left wing but it a Labour government is possible the centre and left of the party have to be unified or we have no chance: See Biden’s approach to doing that with the Dem party. I suspect they’re gambling left wingers have nowhere else to go when it comes to an actual vote, but that’s a really risky strategy.

Anyway, it would be pretty unusual for Starmer to be kicked out before he gets to compete in an election - so we’ll have to see what happens.

A crisis per day
Sends PM away
On holiday....


The Daily Mirror leads on the prime minister's holiday, with the headline: "Only here for the peer." The paper says that Mr Johnson is staying in a luxury villa which belongs to Zac Goldsmith, who he made a peer in 2019. The paper quotes shadow Treasury minister Bridget Phillipson, who said: "In the teeth of a crisis of its own making, the government has put its 'out of office' sign on." (BBC News)

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Does the prime minister not get a holiday? If your friend offers you his pad for a few days do you turn him down?

Your obsession with Boris and the Tories needs to stop.

p.s. still waiting for you to tell us how Brexit has destroyed your life.

Natasha Whittam wrote:Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Does the prime minister not get a holiday? If your friend offers you his pad for a few days do you turn him down?

Your obsession with Boris and the Tories needs to stop.

p.s. still waiting for you to tell us how Brexit has destroyed your life.

Apart from everything else that Lusty pointed out to you very clearly about the disastrous consequences of Brexit for ALL of us, the focus on Brexit prevented Boris from paying due attention to the warnings about the preparations needed re any pandemic, as the overnight report makes abundantly clear. 

He transmits a cavalier attitude about emergencies and hides, as now, when he should be facing up to his responsibilities as PM.

 Thousands of citizens died unecessarily, especially in care homes, due to a lack of planning and preparedness that he was warned about at the time (Cygnus), yet Boris fronts the Tory Party conference with his rehearsed comedy act....and gets cheered by the sycophants.

You need to stop your comedy act too when it's inapproptiate, and get real about serious issues.

okocha wrote:
Apart from everything else that Lusty pointed out to you very clearly about the disastrous consequences of Brexit for ALL of us, the focus on Brexit prevented Boris from paying due attention to the warnings about the preparations needed re any pandemic, as the overnight report makes abundantly clear. 

He transmits a cavalier attitude about emergencies and hides, as now, when he should be facing up to his responsibilities as PM.

 Thousands of citizens died unecessarily, especially in care homes, due to a lack of planning and preparedness that he was warned about at the time (Cygnus), yet Boris fronts the Tory Party conference with his rehearsed comedy act....and gets cheered by the sycophants.

You need to stop your comedy act too when it's inapproptiate, and get real about serious issues.

I doubt there's ever a good time for a PM to have a holiday. Out of season in October seems pretty fair to me. If Boris brought about world peace and gave everyone a million pounds you'd still find fault. That seems to be the way you're wired.

And if you think a football forum is the place for serious debate perhaps you should take a holiday too.

I prefer to keep it light because there's enough misery in the world right now, moaning about everything isn't going to change anything.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

I doubt there's ever a good time for a PM to have a holiday. Out of season in October seems pretty fair to me. If Boris brought about world peace and gave everyone a million pounds you'd still find fault. That seems to be the way you're wired.

And if you think a football forum is the place for serious debate perhaps you should take a holiday too.

I prefer to keep it light because there's enough misery in the world right now, moaning about everything isn't going to change anything.

Weird that that right wing media did nothing but moan about the EU for 30 years and now that Brexit is slowly bringing the country to it's knees, they don't seem to want to talk about it.

As for Boris, the more relevant analogy would be that if he murdered their children Brexiteers would still find some way of justifying it.

All the signs were there!

Eton College writes to Boris' father in 1982:

You think everyone with a poor school report should be barred from government?

Post up your school report, let's see how right or wrong it was.

Everyone who makes an ass of themselves on Have I Got News For You should be banned from Government.