No Lusty, no solar panels or wind turbines in my garden and no heat pumps either!! Fortunately I’ll be gone before any of that nonsense is necessary.
Is there going to be a war?
+12
karlypants
Sluffy
wanderlust
Whitesince63
Ten Bobsworth
Bolton Nuts
observer
Angry Dad
BoltonTillIDie
Boggersbelief
Norpig
okocha
16 posters
241 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 07:46
Whitesince63
El Hadji Diouf
Agree with that Sluffy, the Russian forces are questionable at best and against better trained and better equipped Ukrainian troops will continue to suffer badly. If Russia does see an attack on the other Ukraine regions and act of war against Russia itself, bring it on I say because with that the Russian people will have to know the truth. I’m sure the majority do anyway but as long as it doesn’t seem to affect them personally they’ll keep burying their heads. Ukraine now really need to push their momentum forward. It’s clear that Russia can’t obtain essential parts for new weapon production due to sanctions so as you say they will be forced to use older and older and less reliable resources. Now is the time for Western countries like Germany and France to stop stalling and provide the means for Ukraine to drive the Russians out and hopefully end the war quickly.
No Lusty, no solar panels or wind turbines in my garden and no heat pumps either!! Fortunately I’ll be gone before any of that nonsense is necessary.
No Lusty, no solar panels or wind turbines in my garden and no heat pumps either!! Fortunately I’ll be gone before any of that nonsense is necessary.
242 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 09:06
Sluffy
Admin
Thanks 63 although I have really been trying to pass on what I've read since all this began rather than give any opinions of my own.
The threat of escalation leading to a nuclear war is what everybody is afraid of and that's really why things have gone slowly, slowly from the west's side in terms of what they've supplied/not supplied so far and also we can't escape the fact that Russia has 'bought' influence in many western countries in the last twenty years or so - former German Chancellor Gerald Schroder signed the deal for Nord Stream I - (AFTER he'd been defeated in the elections) and immediately went on to manage the Nord Stream II and become a director of Gasprom!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Relationship_with_Russian_companies
France's Le Pen said before she was beaten by Macron in January this year that she would take France out of Nato, that Ukraine was a puppet of USA and after the war started that France should not supply arms to Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen#Foreign_policy
Ex-partner of French President Hollande and who stood against Sarkozy herself to become President, Segolene Royal, has recently stated that the was crimes at Buccha and the killing of the Azov prisoners was fake news!
https://morningexpress.in/segolene-royal-is-controversial-by-questioning-war-crimes-in-ukraine/
The former Foreign minister of Austria (and who danced with Putin at her wedding) has recently been made a Director at Rosneft! -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56280898
Austria has sent NO arms to Ukraine since the war began.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/austria-not-under-immediate-military-threat-says-chancellor/
And so on...
It now seems the tide is turning somewhat and Poland's Prime Minister is even strongly hinting that Hungary should leave the EU over their deliberate attempts to frustrate EU sanctions against Russia.
So back to the nuclear threat, does anyone really think it will happen - no they don't - but them again nobody believed Russia would attack Ukraine - but they did - and that's why better and better weapons to Ukraine have only been given to Ukraine bit by bit to see what if any reaction Russia might do about it.
Up to now they haven't done anything - but there is no getting away from the fact that they do have a nuclear arsenal at their disposal.
Uncertain times we live in.
The threat of escalation leading to a nuclear war is what everybody is afraid of and that's really why things have gone slowly, slowly from the west's side in terms of what they've supplied/not supplied so far and also we can't escape the fact that Russia has 'bought' influence in many western countries in the last twenty years or so - former German Chancellor Gerald Schroder signed the deal for Nord Stream I - (AFTER he'd been defeated in the elections) and immediately went on to manage the Nord Stream II and become a director of Gasprom!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Relationship_with_Russian_companies
France's Le Pen said before she was beaten by Macron in January this year that she would take France out of Nato, that Ukraine was a puppet of USA and after the war started that France should not supply arms to Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen#Foreign_policy
Ex-partner of French President Hollande and who stood against Sarkozy herself to become President, Segolene Royal, has recently stated that the was crimes at Buccha and the killing of the Azov prisoners was fake news!
https://morningexpress.in/segolene-royal-is-controversial-by-questioning-war-crimes-in-ukraine/
The former Foreign minister of Austria (and who danced with Putin at her wedding) has recently been made a Director at Rosneft! -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56280898
Austria has sent NO arms to Ukraine since the war began.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/austria-not-under-immediate-military-threat-says-chancellor/
And so on...
It now seems the tide is turning somewhat and Poland's Prime Minister is even strongly hinting that Hungary should leave the EU over their deliberate attempts to frustrate EU sanctions against Russia.
So back to the nuclear threat, does anyone really think it will happen - no they don't - but them again nobody believed Russia would attack Ukraine - but they did - and that's why better and better weapons to Ukraine have only been given to Ukraine bit by bit to see what if any reaction Russia might do about it.
Up to now they haven't done anything - but there is no getting away from the fact that they do have a nuclear arsenal at their disposal.
Uncertain times we live in.
243 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 10:19
Whitesince63
El Hadji Diouf
I’m not sure that Putin alone has the authority to launch nuclear missiles Sluffy, including strategic ones. Doing that would clearly take the situation into a completely different stratosphere and it would be impossible for the rest of the world not to respond to it. Russia knows that the USA has enough warheads to completely wipe them out and no country on earth would not be affected by the fallout. We can only hope that the Russian population pressure their government to remove Vlad before a decision like that is made. Putin is quickly having to explain what’s going on in this “re-unification” of Ukraine decision and I think he’s genuinely been surprised by the incredible resilience the Ukrainians have shown and he must now realise that his original plan is in complete tatters. I’d suspect discussions are more about how Putin can get out of this affair without completely losing face. I just hope that there’s a sense that if that’s the case it’s not ignored by the West. That’s not appeasement but sense.
244 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 11:09
Sluffy
Admin
I don't think you understand how it works 63, Putin is all powerful, in the same way Xi is in China. He can order nuclear strikes but the question is will those down the line do it, if he does.
It's extremely unlikely he will and he's not insane, he would know the consequences of doing so.
Clearly the lives of others are of no consequence to him but no doubt he values his own.
Putin doesn't have to explain anything to no one - he controls all the narrative in Russia and has purged all his rivals.
Russian people will only notice if and when their economy collapses and even then, they've been fed a narrative that the USA/NATO/the west would have caused it and they (we) are to blame for everything.
That's how it is.
It's a completely different world they live in and one we can't understand - look at how Europe (including the UK) have been chumming up with Putin for the last 20 years or so - how London has been where the Oligarchs have been spending their money on property without too many questions being asked - Boris best mate is the son of a high-ranking KGB general ffs!
The west - particularly Germany and France have been 'bought' by Russian money, which has in turn gained them influence in the running of our country's.
The war seems to have woken many up to that now (Germany and France in particular), but we can't do much to get Putin out of power and if he did fall, the ones who take over are all of the same mindset anyway!
There's no clear ending to this unless Putin somehow claims a victory and at the same time gives back the two breakaway republics and Crimea - and no one can see that happening anytime soon.
It's extremely unlikely he will and he's not insane, he would know the consequences of doing so.
Clearly the lives of others are of no consequence to him but no doubt he values his own.
Putin doesn't have to explain anything to no one - he controls all the narrative in Russia and has purged all his rivals.
Russian people will only notice if and when their economy collapses and even then, they've been fed a narrative that the USA/NATO/the west would have caused it and they (we) are to blame for everything.
That's how it is.
It's a completely different world they live in and one we can't understand - look at how Europe (including the UK) have been chumming up with Putin for the last 20 years or so - how London has been where the Oligarchs have been spending their money on property without too many questions being asked - Boris best mate is the son of a high-ranking KGB general ffs!
The west - particularly Germany and France have been 'bought' by Russian money, which has in turn gained them influence in the running of our country's.
The war seems to have woken many up to that now (Germany and France in particular), but we can't do much to get Putin out of power and if he did fall, the ones who take over are all of the same mindset anyway!
There's no clear ending to this unless Putin somehow claims a victory and at the same time gives back the two breakaway republics and Crimea - and no one can see that happening anytime soon.
245 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 11:37
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Sluffy wrote:No you aren't understanding reality.
I really do.
The Russians don't have a big army - yes there are lots of people in it at any one time but in reality as such most are just passing through as a sort of national service, which most people seem to avoid by paying bribes not to have to serve.
Similarly they have loads of equipment built up of stocks that have been accruing since WWII and are simply being taken out of the years of storage.
Loads of it haven't been maintained either and again corruption has been rife, as it seems to be across the board in Russia - hence the oligarchs emergence - resulting in poor performance of the equipment on the battlefield.
Agree with all of this, but the bottom line is that they have the numbers i.e. 2 million or so spread around Russia - albeit poorly trained, poorly equipped and with low incentive - but when you put that in context of Russia and Putin's thinking - and the scripted state media output - the question is whether or not they are prepared to simply throw them into the fight in the full knowledge that they will incur heavy losses.
That never stopped the Russians in WW2, Afghanistan etc - it seems to be an acceptable option to the Russians to sacrifice their youth - like our generals did in WW1.
That in turn begs the question of how the Russian population would view their kids who were supposedly off for a jolly in the military summer camp to tick off the completed national service box being sent to the front line? Didn't go down well with them in the Afghan War as the bodies piled up.
Added to all that is how their army operates which seems to be decisions are made from the top down giving inflexibility and delays on the battlefields whereas western armies have delegated powers to lower ranks to call for artillery and aerial support as and when needed.
Totally agree - they have an antiquated and inflexible approach to military command. It's mainly a career for the "officer class" who can progress because of their family/party connections or history and they do it for the pay, titles and shiny uniforms - they're set for life.
Also don't forget the army fighting in Ukraine is not one unit like the Ukranian army but made up of the regular army, the private mercenary army firms, those who signed up for 6 months for the money (and can refuse to fight!) and blokes off the streets of the two breakaway regions who have been basically used as cannon fodder.
Yes - although the Chechens are pretty battle experienced and badass, but they like the Wagner group are in a minority. The Ukrainians on the other hand have a massive incentive and a standing force with good training.
So yes Russia appears to have a 'big' army in numbers and loads of equipment, but the reality is that these numbers are completely misleading when translated into actual performance on the battlefield.
Sure - performance is crap
Russia's battleplan is to simply overwhelm their opponents by sheer weight of numbers and a total disregard for the lives of their troops - they steamroller forward if you will.
Exactly.
However when finally matched by opponent's who don't have the same numbers but compensate for that with much better weapons and war strategies, they clearly have struggled to adapt and have been defeated as evidenced in the last week.
Russia seems not to have a plan B as such and no doubt will try to raise reserves to continue to throw them into their meatgrinder plan and arm them with older and older equipment as they dig deeper and deeper into their reserve stocks of weapons and arms.
Indeed.
It looks for now that the Kremlin still intends to grind things out this way.
My point exactly.
I've no idea what is going to happen next, but it will be interesting to see if Ukraine will continue their advance into the two breakaway states which initial reports seem to suggest they are doing and how Russia will react - as in theory in Russia's view these states are part of the Russian federation - which is seen as an attack on Russia itself - which could be perceived by them as Ukraine declaring war on them!!!
Yes and no. Officially they are independent but of course the Russians think that way so it will be an interesting journey of state media propaganda that provides the justification without exposing the lie.
As for your video clip don't pay too much attention to it as it is all scripted and tightly controlled by the Kremlin for internal consumption for the Russian public to believe/ be led by.
Of course I know that, but I posted it to show how the state machine is now trying to justify (to the Russian people) their attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure - because it's a fine line to tread. On the one hand they started this war on the premise that they were liberating their "brothers and sisters" from oppression - but now they are proposing to freeze and starve them - so there's an obvious contradiction to overcome.
Not sure that will wash with anyone with two or more brain cells to rub together.
246 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 11:50
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
The nuke option is extremely unlikely - that said, it's Putin and the likes of John Bolton have been saying that the Ukrainian advance has "increased the likelihood".Whitesince63 wrote:I’m not sure that Putin alone has the authority to launch nuclear missiles Sluffy, including strategic ones. Doing that would clearly take the situation into a completely different stratosphere and it would be impossible for the rest of the world not to respond to it. Russia knows that the USA has enough warheads to completely wipe them out and no country on earth would not be affected by the fallout. We can only hope that the Russian population pressure their government to remove Vlad before a decision like that is made. Putin is quickly having to explain what’s going on in this “re-unification” of Ukraine decision and I think he’s genuinely been surprised by the incredible resilience the Ukrainians have shown and he must now realise that his original plan is in complete tatters. I’d suspect discussions are more about how Putin can get out of this affair without completely losing face. I just hope that there’s a sense that if that’s the case it’s not ignored by the West. That’s not appeasement but sense.
Of course nobody wants to contemplate it but..
As we have all pointed out, the question is "where is Putin's exit strategy?"
I'm really struggling to see it.
One thing is for certain - it won't be anything that could be construed as a humiliating defeat for Russia in their media who to date have done nothing other than advocate increasing levels of resources being employed and are increasingly advocating the destruction of the infrastructure of Ukraine itself - a huge messaging shift from "liberation".
247 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 12:18
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Interesting article in the Independent on the withdrawal of the "anti Nato" unit from Kharkiv.
Includes a video statement by Putin.
Also, another warning about tactical nukes this time from from the ex NATO chief.
Includes a video statement by Putin.
Also, another warning about tactical nukes this time from from the ex NATO chief.
249 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 13:22
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:Sluffy wrote:
No you aren't understanding reality.
I really do.
You really don't you know!
wanderlust wrote:
Agree with all of this, but the bottom line is that they have the numbers i.e. 2 million or so spread around Russia - albeit poorly trained, poorly equipped and with low incentive - but when you put that in context of Russia and Putin's thinking - and the scripted state media output - the question is whether or not they are prepared to simply throw them into the fight in the full knowledge that they will incur heavy losses.
That never stopped the Russians in WW2, Afghanistan etc - it seems to be an acceptable option to the Russians to sacrifice their youth - like our generals did in WW1.
What I've written are not my opinions they are what western intelligence agencies are saying - and what is overwhelmingly confirmed by army veterans.
Basically, the numbers of solders in an army don't equate to the same number of soldiers they are able to put on the battlefield - there are multitudes who work in the rear doing everything from maintaining the equipment to feeding the troops.
And even then they don't throw all their troops into one war, they still have to maintain security and discipline throughout the country and guard their other boarders from attack.
wanderlust wrote:Totally agree - they have an antiquated and inflexible approach to military command. It's mainly a career for the "officer class" who can progress because of their family/party connections or history and they do it for the pay, titles and shiny uniforms - they're set for life.
I think you are living in the past if you believe people in Russia are still joining the army as a family tradition of for smart uniforms - people pay to avoid going in it in Russia - they've wised up after the wars in Afghanistan, Georgia and Chechnya - why do you think they are fighting a war now with national service conscripts, blokes taken off the streets in the two republics and mercenaries?
Sluffy wrote:It looks for now that the Kremlin still intends to grind things out this way.
wanderlust wrote:My point exactly.
Hahaha!
That's everybody's view!!! - I hardly think you can claim credit for stating the bleeding obvious!
Sluffy wrote:I've no idea what is going to happen next, but it will be interesting to see if Ukraine will continue their advance into the two breakaway states which initial reports seem to suggest they are doing and how Russia will react - as in theory in Russia's view these states are part of the Russian federation - which is seen as an attack on Russia itself - which could be perceived by them as Ukraine declaring war on them!!!
wanderlust wrote:Yes and no. Officially they are independent but of course the Russians think that way so it will be an interesting journey of state media propaganda that provides the justification without exposing the lie.
Err no?
Nobody recognises the two states and Crimea as being independent and part of the Russian Federation other than Russia, North Korea and Syria (and I now think Iran has too since Russia bought some drones off them!).
Russia's stated position is that they will use nuclear arms if it or any of its Federation are attacked.
Whether they do is entirely a different matter though.
250 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 13:27
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:Interesting article in the Independent on the withdrawal of the "anti Nato" unit from Kharkiv.
Includes a video statement by Putin.
Also, another warning about tactical nukes this time from from the ex NATO chief.
The Independent article is behind a paywall so I've not seen it but below is what UK's Defence Intelligence said -
Latest Defence Intelligence update on the situation in Ukraine - 13 September 2022
— Ministry of Defence (@DefenceHQ) September 13, 2022
Find out more about the UK government's response: https://t.co/BYZhjLmtmf
#StandWithUkraine pic.twitter.com/r0Cf3z3wab
251 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 14:52
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Why do you do it? Start off by speculating that I don't understand so I clarify my meaning - largely agreeing with you - and you have to start arguing and ignoring the additional points I made.Sluffy wrote:
You really don't you know!
What I've written are not my opinions they are what western intelligence agencies are saying - and what is overwhelmingly confirmed by army veterans.
Basically, the numbers of solders in an army don't equate to the same number of soldiers they are able to put on the battlefield - there are multitudes who work in the rear doing everything from maintaining the equipment to feeding the troops.
And even then they don't throw all their troops into one war, they still have to maintain security and discipline throughout the country and guard their other boarders from attack.
I think you are living in the past if you believe people in Russia are still joining the army as a family tradition of for smart uniforms - people pay to avoid going in it in Russia - they've wised up after the wars in Afghanistan, Georgia and Chechnya - why do you think they are fighting a war now with national service conscripts, blokes taken off the streets in the two republics and mercenaries?
Hahaha!
That's everybody's view!!! - I hardly think you can claim credit for stating the bleeding obvious!
Err no?
Nobody recognises the two states and Crimea as being independent and part of the Russian Federation other than Russia, North Korea and Syria (and I now think Iran has too since Russia bought some drones off them!).
Russia's stated position is that they will use nuclear arms if it or any of its Federation are attacked.
Whether they do is entirely a different matter though.
Do you have to try to find a way to make it confrontational every time?
252 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 14:53
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
So sad this. They're cannon fodder in somebody else's game.boltonbonce wrote:
253 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 15:00
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
The Independent site isn't a paywall, but they do ask you to register.
It says:
A Russian unit that would have led “counterattacks” in the event of a war with Nato has withdrawn from Ukraine’s Kharkiv province, the British Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.
Russia’s 1st Guards Tank Army (1 GTA), which suffered heavy casualties early in the invasion, was among the divisions to abandon positions in the northeast province following a lightning Ukrainian advance, according to the MoD.
“1 GTA had been one of the most prestigious of Russia’s armies, allocated for the defence of Moscow, and intended to lead counterattacks in the case of a war with Nato,” the MoD said in a statement.
It added that Russia’s Western Military District (WEMD), to which 1GTA is subordinate, has been significantly weakened by almost seven months of war.
“With 1 GTA and other WEMD formations severely degraded, Russia’s conventional force designed to counter Nato is severely weakened. It will likely take years for Russia to rebuild this capability,” the MoD said.
I'll try to link the Putin video here.
He's speaking at the Eastern Economic Forum alongside leaders from China, Myanmar etc so when he talks about "our" objectives it suggests a nod towards strengthening ties in the East, not specifically Russia's objectives.
It says:
A Russian unit that would have led “counterattacks” in the event of a war with Nato has withdrawn from Ukraine’s Kharkiv province, the British Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.
Russia’s 1st Guards Tank Army (1 GTA), which suffered heavy casualties early in the invasion, was among the divisions to abandon positions in the northeast province following a lightning Ukrainian advance, according to the MoD.
“1 GTA had been one of the most prestigious of Russia’s armies, allocated for the defence of Moscow, and intended to lead counterattacks in the case of a war with Nato,” the MoD said in a statement.
It added that Russia’s Western Military District (WEMD), to which 1GTA is subordinate, has been significantly weakened by almost seven months of war.
“With 1 GTA and other WEMD formations severely degraded, Russia’s conventional force designed to counter Nato is severely weakened. It will likely take years for Russia to rebuild this capability,” the MoD said.
I'll try to link the Putin video here.
He's speaking at the Eastern Economic Forum alongside leaders from China, Myanmar etc so when he talks about "our" objectives it suggests a nod towards strengthening ties in the East, not specifically Russia's objectives.
254 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 15:47
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:Why do you do it? Start off by speculating that I don't understand so I clarify my meaning - largely agreeing with you - and you have to start arguing and ignoring the additional points I made.
Do you have to try to find a way to make it confrontational every time?
???
I've stated all along that what I saying weren't my views but those of the western intelligence agencies - primarily the UK's Defence Intelligence, The Study of War Institute in Washington and the Ukrainian government's Defence of Ukrainian office.
To balance that up as best I can, I also try to follow Igor Ivanovich Girkin/ (aka Strelkov) who is clearly well connected in the Russian set up who is believed to be the man who give the order to knowingly shoot down the Malaysian plane flight 17 in 2014 and the Telegram Chanel 'Grey Zone' which is 'Wagner's' social media outlet.
Of course not everything the western intelligence agencies say are without a few strings to them and I'm limited to what others translate from the two Russian sites but it is the best I've got.
Added to those above I also follow two Ukrainian daily news accounts and a number of OSINT (Open Source INTelegence) sites and numerous other reputable accounts following the war in Ukraine.
I certainly don't consider myself to be in anyway an expert in what is going on in the war but all what I've posted above on this thread are what are universally agreed to have happened/be happening - and the reasons for them (and this includes confirmation from Girkin and Wagner - who do not always support the Kremlin's line).
If you want to consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than all of those...
wanderlust wrote:Sluffy wrote:
No you aren't understanding reality.
I really do.
...then it doesn't surprise me in the least as that is how you act normally - a 'know it all' who won't accept that he is ever wrong...
Fwiw I removed and did not respond to any of the areas you agreed with - but merely passed on for information the west's intelligence agencies analysis and tried for the second time to enlighten and correct your views for the benefit of everyone else interested in this thread in order to separate your 'opinions' of what is happening and make clear that they are in conflict with what the actual intelligence agencies have been saying.
As it happens, I am not a confrontational person on here or in real life - I merely attempt to better inform people then leave it up to them if they rather continue to believe the utter bollocks that they seem to prefer to be true...
Other than that, have a nice day.
255 Re: Is there going to be a war? Tue Sep 13 2022, 16:13
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:The Independent site isn't a paywall, but they do ask you to register.
It says:
A Russian unit that would have led “counterattacks” in the event of a war with Nato has withdrawn from Ukraine’s Kharkiv province, the British Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said.
Russia’s 1st Guards Tank Army (1 GTA), which suffered heavy casualties early in the invasion, was among the divisions to abandon positions in the northeast province following a lightning Ukrainian advance, according to the MoD.
“1 GTA had been one of the most prestigious of Russia’s armies, allocated for the defence of Moscow, and intended to lead counterattacks in the case of a war with Nato,” the MoD said in a statement.
It added that Russia’s Western Military District (WEMD), to which 1GTA is subordinate, has been significantly weakened by almost seven months of war.
“With 1 GTA and other WEMD formations severely degraded, Russia’s conventional force designed to counter Nato is severely weakened. It will likely take years for Russia to rebuild this capability,” the MoD said.
I'll try to link the Putin video here.
He's speaking at the Eastern Economic Forum alongside leaders from China, Myanmar etc so when he talks about "our" objectives it suggests a nod towards strengthening ties in the East, not specifically Russia's objectives.
Thank you for this.
It seems to be a complete copy of the UK's Defence Intelligence Tweet I posted earlier.
As for Putin video, I imagine most countries there can see for themselves what happened and what has happened since and have downgraded their view of both Russia's military capabilities and its economic strength.
The fact the Putin has had to ask North Korea and Iran for military help and apparently approached Kyrgyzstan for help also in the last few days - will not have gone unnoticed by them at all I would suspect.
Tellingly China as kept itself out of supplying Russia militarily support whilst at the same time taken an apparent massive amount of oil/gas from them at a report 50% discount on what they were paying before the war started.
Whatever Putin is seeking from this conference I suggest will not amount to much in the end.
And it also looks as though Putin as no thought of stepping away from Ukraine either.
No end in sight for now though.
256 Re: Is there going to be a war? Wed Sep 14 2022, 09:28
Sluffy
Admin
Thought I'd post today's daily intelligence analysis from the Institute of War as it may help to enlighten people as to the reality of what is actually going on in respect of many things such as how Putin is not seen to be being blamed by their public because for failures in the war because he controls the narrative and the press, how he can't declare a war and mobilise the nation, how the Russian army is demoralised in the Ukraine and how weak the Russian army has become evidenced in how Azerbaijan is taking advantage of the circumstance in Ukraine by attempting to take back a chunk of their country that Russian back Armenia had taken from them (think it being in a somewhat similar way as to how Russia took chunks of the Donbas from Ukraine in 2014 which ultimately has led to the current war).
September 13, 10:15 pm ET
The Kremlin acknowledged its defeat in Kharkiv Oblast, the first time Moscow has openly recognized a defeat since the start of the February 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Kremlin officials and state media propagandists are extensively discussing the reasons for the Russian defeat in Kharkiv Oblast, a marked change from their previous pattern of reporting on exaggerated or fabricated Russian successes with limited detail.[1] The Kremlin never admitted that Russia was defeated around Kyiv or, later, at Snake Island, framing the retreat from Kyiv as a decision to prioritize the “liberation” of Donbas and the withdrawal from Snake Island as a “gesture of goodwill.”[2] The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) originally offered a similar explanation for the Russian failure in Kharkiv, claiming that Russian forces were withdrawing troops from Kharkiv Oblast to regroup, but this false narrative faced quick and loud criticism online.[3] The Kremlin’s acknowledgment of the defeat is part of an effort to mitigate and deflect criticism for such a devastating failure away from Russian President Vladimir Putin and onto the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and the uniformed military command.
Kremlin sources are now working to clear Putin of any responsibility for the defeat, instead blaming the loss of almost all of occupied Kharkiv Oblast on underinformed military advisors within Putin’s circle.[4] One member of the Kremlin’s Council for Interethnic Relations, Bogdan Bezpalko, even stated that military officials who had failed to see the concentration of Ukrainian troops and equipment and disregarded Telegram channels that warned of the imminent Ukrainian counter-offensive in Kharkiv Oblast should have their heads ”lying on Putin’s desk.”[5] ISW has previously reported that the Kremlin delayed Putin‘s meeting with Russian defense officials immediately after the withdrawal of troops from around Kharkiv, increasing the appearance of a rift between the Kremlin and the Russian MoD.[6] The Kremlin’s admission of defeat in Kharkiv shows that Putin is willing and able to recognize and even accept a Russian defeat at least in some circumstances and focus on deflecting blame from himself.
Several members of the Russian State Duma expressed concern about the dire situation on the frontlines in Ukraine during the Duma’s first plenary meeting of its autumn session on September 13. Leader of the Russian Communist Party Gennady Zyuganov stated that Russia needs to announce full mobilization because the Russian “special military operation” is a war.[7] Zyuganov said that one can end a “special military operation” at any time, but that a war can end only in victory or defeat, and “we have no right to lose” this war. Leader of the “Fair Russia—For Truth” Party Sergey Mironov called for social “mobilization,” in which regular Russians would pay attention more to the war in Ukraine, rather than for full military mobilization. Leader of the Russian Liberal Democratic Party Leonid Slutsky also noted that Russia will continue to fight in the geopolitical “scrum” with the West. All three MPs had publicly advocated for Putin to recognize the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (DNR and LNR) before the February invasion and were instrumental in setting information conditions for the invasion itself.[8] The MPs also discussed a December date for the next hearing on a bill that will simplify the delivery of the semiannual conscription notices.[9] The bill, which is likely to pass, will allow Russian military recruitment centers to send out conscription notices via mail instead of presenting them in person and will oblige men who have not received a notice in the mail to show up at the local recruitment center anyway.[10]
The Kremlin is likely seeking to use the defeat in Kharkiv to facilitate crypto mobilization efforts. Zyuganov’s, Mironov’s, and Slutsky’s statements could be aimed at raising concern and patriotism among Russians to encourage them to get more involved in the war. The bill could further facilitate the ongoing crypto mobilization campaign, which aims to promote recruitment into contract service via deception, coercion, or promised financial rewards. Recruitment centers throughout Russia have been delivering unofficial summonses that look like conscription notices via mail and phone calls, but many men are aware that Russian law requires military recruitment centers to issue conscription notices in person.[11] Russian men who have responded to the unofficial summonses have recounted recruiters attempting to persuade or pressure them into signing a military contract. The bill legalizing mailed conscription notices will facilitate this dishonest practice. Both the bill and MPs’ statements may evoke fear of general mobilization among men, which could incentivize some to sign military contracts and receive financial bonuses for volunteering, as opposed to being conscripted and forced to serve without such compensation.
Nothing in the Duma bill suggests that Putin is preparing to order general mobilization, and it is far from clear that he could do so quickly. Large-scale conscription would very likely overwhelm the Russian MoD’s ability to induct, train, and equip new soldiers, particularly since the Russian training base appears to be strained in preparing the limited numbers of volunteer battalions currently being fielded. Russia would likely first have to expand its training base significantly, a time-consuming process, and then find and prepare for combat sufficient equipment to kit out large numbers of new units before it could even begin to handle a large influx of new conscripts. Widely-reported Russian materiel shortages suggest deep failures in the Russian military industry that would make generating the necessary equipment, ammunition, and supplies for a large conscript army very difficult. ISW has not identified any indicators that preparations for such activities have been ordered or are underway.
The Kremlin has adopted narratives that echo longstanding milblogger demands and complaints, suggesting that Putin seeks to appease and win back the critical milblogger community rather than censor it. Russian milbloggers have long complained about the Russian MoD and the military high command, and now the Kremlin state media is openly expressing dissatisfaction with the progress of the war and the lack of situational awareness of events on the ground.[12] Milbloggers are advertising Telegram channels covering frontline developments 24/7 and urging readers to subscribe if they “believe” in Putin.[13] Kremlin-controlled and Kremlin-influenced media are now openly calling for an intensive missile campaign against Ukrainian civilian critical infrastructure and transit routes, an idea with broad support among many milbloggers.[14] These new calls are a stark departure from the Kremlin‘s previous line claiming that Russian forces did not target civilian infrastructure, and this new narrative is earning the Kremlin public support among milbloggers. Slutsky’s statement at the Duma meeting pointing to the disinterest of most Russian civilians in the war echoes frequent milblogger complaints about the harmful side effects of conducting a limited war.[15]
Russia’s defeat in Kharkiv Oblast is causing panic among Russians in occupied Ukrainian territories, servicemen, and milbloggers. The Ukrainian Main Military Intelligence (GUR) reported that Russian authorities in Crimea urged their families to flee to Russia, while employees of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) are selling their homes on the peninsula and are urgently evacuating their families due to Ukrainian counter-offensives.[16] The Ukrainian General Staff reported that forcibly mobilized proxy units are suffering low morale and psychological problems.[17] Russian milbloggers are increasingly worrying about Ukrainian counter-offensives in different areas along the Donetsk-Zaporizhia Oblasts frontline, and preemptively identifying vulnerable Russian positions.[18]
Russia’s military failures in Ukraine are likely continuing to weaken Russia’s leverage in the former Soviet Union. Armenia accused Azerbaijan of violating a Russian-brokered ceasefire and attacking Armenian forces along the Azerbaijan-Armenian border on September 13.[19] Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan held a call with Russian President Vladimir Putin and convened a meeting of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) member states later in the day but did not invoke the CSTO’s collective security agreement, according to government readouts of both meetings.[20] The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not comment on whether the Kremlin would fulfill its CSTO obligations to Armenia if Azerbaijan continued to press its attack.[21] Russia’s hedging approach may damage Russia’s relationship with Armenia and with other CSTO member states, particularly If Russia cannot provide military or peacekeeping support.
The CSTO is a Russia-created and Russia-dominated intergovernmental military alliance that the Kremlin claims is about collective security, but typically uses to justify or further its hybrid war aims. The degraded Russian military likely does not have sufficient forces to enforce a ceasefire or to deploy additional peacekeepers to the area after six months of devastating war in Ukraine. ISW reported on March 13 that Russia pulled 800 personnel from Russia’s base in Armenia and elements of its Nagorno-Karabakh “peacekeeping deployment” to replenish early losses in Ukraine.[22] ISW has observed no redeployments to Nagorno-Karabakh or Russia’s base in Armenia since then.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-13
September 13, 10:15 pm ET
The Kremlin acknowledged its defeat in Kharkiv Oblast, the first time Moscow has openly recognized a defeat since the start of the February 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Kremlin officials and state media propagandists are extensively discussing the reasons for the Russian defeat in Kharkiv Oblast, a marked change from their previous pattern of reporting on exaggerated or fabricated Russian successes with limited detail.[1] The Kremlin never admitted that Russia was defeated around Kyiv or, later, at Snake Island, framing the retreat from Kyiv as a decision to prioritize the “liberation” of Donbas and the withdrawal from Snake Island as a “gesture of goodwill.”[2] The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) originally offered a similar explanation for the Russian failure in Kharkiv, claiming that Russian forces were withdrawing troops from Kharkiv Oblast to regroup, but this false narrative faced quick and loud criticism online.[3] The Kremlin’s acknowledgment of the defeat is part of an effort to mitigate and deflect criticism for such a devastating failure away from Russian President Vladimir Putin and onto the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) and the uniformed military command.
Kremlin sources are now working to clear Putin of any responsibility for the defeat, instead blaming the loss of almost all of occupied Kharkiv Oblast on underinformed military advisors within Putin’s circle.[4] One member of the Kremlin’s Council for Interethnic Relations, Bogdan Bezpalko, even stated that military officials who had failed to see the concentration of Ukrainian troops and equipment and disregarded Telegram channels that warned of the imminent Ukrainian counter-offensive in Kharkiv Oblast should have their heads ”lying on Putin’s desk.”[5] ISW has previously reported that the Kremlin delayed Putin‘s meeting with Russian defense officials immediately after the withdrawal of troops from around Kharkiv, increasing the appearance of a rift between the Kremlin and the Russian MoD.[6] The Kremlin’s admission of defeat in Kharkiv shows that Putin is willing and able to recognize and even accept a Russian defeat at least in some circumstances and focus on deflecting blame from himself.
Several members of the Russian State Duma expressed concern about the dire situation on the frontlines in Ukraine during the Duma’s first plenary meeting of its autumn session on September 13. Leader of the Russian Communist Party Gennady Zyuganov stated that Russia needs to announce full mobilization because the Russian “special military operation” is a war.[7] Zyuganov said that one can end a “special military operation” at any time, but that a war can end only in victory or defeat, and “we have no right to lose” this war. Leader of the “Fair Russia—For Truth” Party Sergey Mironov called for social “mobilization,” in which regular Russians would pay attention more to the war in Ukraine, rather than for full military mobilization. Leader of the Russian Liberal Democratic Party Leonid Slutsky also noted that Russia will continue to fight in the geopolitical “scrum” with the West. All three MPs had publicly advocated for Putin to recognize the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (DNR and LNR) before the February invasion and were instrumental in setting information conditions for the invasion itself.[8] The MPs also discussed a December date for the next hearing on a bill that will simplify the delivery of the semiannual conscription notices.[9] The bill, which is likely to pass, will allow Russian military recruitment centers to send out conscription notices via mail instead of presenting them in person and will oblige men who have not received a notice in the mail to show up at the local recruitment center anyway.[10]
The Kremlin is likely seeking to use the defeat in Kharkiv to facilitate crypto mobilization efforts. Zyuganov’s, Mironov’s, and Slutsky’s statements could be aimed at raising concern and patriotism among Russians to encourage them to get more involved in the war. The bill could further facilitate the ongoing crypto mobilization campaign, which aims to promote recruitment into contract service via deception, coercion, or promised financial rewards. Recruitment centers throughout Russia have been delivering unofficial summonses that look like conscription notices via mail and phone calls, but many men are aware that Russian law requires military recruitment centers to issue conscription notices in person.[11] Russian men who have responded to the unofficial summonses have recounted recruiters attempting to persuade or pressure them into signing a military contract. The bill legalizing mailed conscription notices will facilitate this dishonest practice. Both the bill and MPs’ statements may evoke fear of general mobilization among men, which could incentivize some to sign military contracts and receive financial bonuses for volunteering, as opposed to being conscripted and forced to serve without such compensation.
Nothing in the Duma bill suggests that Putin is preparing to order general mobilization, and it is far from clear that he could do so quickly. Large-scale conscription would very likely overwhelm the Russian MoD’s ability to induct, train, and equip new soldiers, particularly since the Russian training base appears to be strained in preparing the limited numbers of volunteer battalions currently being fielded. Russia would likely first have to expand its training base significantly, a time-consuming process, and then find and prepare for combat sufficient equipment to kit out large numbers of new units before it could even begin to handle a large influx of new conscripts. Widely-reported Russian materiel shortages suggest deep failures in the Russian military industry that would make generating the necessary equipment, ammunition, and supplies for a large conscript army very difficult. ISW has not identified any indicators that preparations for such activities have been ordered or are underway.
The Kremlin has adopted narratives that echo longstanding milblogger demands and complaints, suggesting that Putin seeks to appease and win back the critical milblogger community rather than censor it. Russian milbloggers have long complained about the Russian MoD and the military high command, and now the Kremlin state media is openly expressing dissatisfaction with the progress of the war and the lack of situational awareness of events on the ground.[12] Milbloggers are advertising Telegram channels covering frontline developments 24/7 and urging readers to subscribe if they “believe” in Putin.[13] Kremlin-controlled and Kremlin-influenced media are now openly calling for an intensive missile campaign against Ukrainian civilian critical infrastructure and transit routes, an idea with broad support among many milbloggers.[14] These new calls are a stark departure from the Kremlin‘s previous line claiming that Russian forces did not target civilian infrastructure, and this new narrative is earning the Kremlin public support among milbloggers. Slutsky’s statement at the Duma meeting pointing to the disinterest of most Russian civilians in the war echoes frequent milblogger complaints about the harmful side effects of conducting a limited war.[15]
Russia’s defeat in Kharkiv Oblast is causing panic among Russians in occupied Ukrainian territories, servicemen, and milbloggers. The Ukrainian Main Military Intelligence (GUR) reported that Russian authorities in Crimea urged their families to flee to Russia, while employees of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) are selling their homes on the peninsula and are urgently evacuating their families due to Ukrainian counter-offensives.[16] The Ukrainian General Staff reported that forcibly mobilized proxy units are suffering low morale and psychological problems.[17] Russian milbloggers are increasingly worrying about Ukrainian counter-offensives in different areas along the Donetsk-Zaporizhia Oblasts frontline, and preemptively identifying vulnerable Russian positions.[18]
Russia’s military failures in Ukraine are likely continuing to weaken Russia’s leverage in the former Soviet Union. Armenia accused Azerbaijan of violating a Russian-brokered ceasefire and attacking Armenian forces along the Azerbaijan-Armenian border on September 13.[19] Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan held a call with Russian President Vladimir Putin and convened a meeting of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) member states later in the day but did not invoke the CSTO’s collective security agreement, according to government readouts of both meetings.[20] The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not comment on whether the Kremlin would fulfill its CSTO obligations to Armenia if Azerbaijan continued to press its attack.[21] Russia’s hedging approach may damage Russia’s relationship with Armenia and with other CSTO member states, particularly If Russia cannot provide military or peacekeeping support.
The CSTO is a Russia-created and Russia-dominated intergovernmental military alliance that the Kremlin claims is about collective security, but typically uses to justify or further its hybrid war aims. The degraded Russian military likely does not have sufficient forces to enforce a ceasefire or to deploy additional peacekeepers to the area after six months of devastating war in Ukraine. ISW reported on March 13 that Russia pulled 800 personnel from Russia’s base in Armenia and elements of its Nagorno-Karabakh “peacekeeping deployment” to replenish early losses in Ukraine.[22] ISW has observed no redeployments to Nagorno-Karabakh or Russia’s base in Armenia since then.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-13
257 Re: Is there going to be a war? Wed Sep 14 2022, 12:14
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
If Ukraine regains it's territory, how will it defend such a massive frontline in perpetuity?
258 Re: Is there going to be a war? Wed Sep 14 2022, 13:10
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:If Ukraine regains it's territory, how will it defend such a massive frontline in perpetuity?
It is currently being worked on - yesterday's Guardian -
Long-term military guarantees from west would protect Ukraine – report
Ukraine’s allies should commit to legally binding large-scale weapons transfers and multi-decade investment in the country’s defences, according to a report that looked at alternatives to Kyiv’s long-term aspirations to join the Nato alliance.
The report was commissioned by the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, and co-authored by the former Nato secretary general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, and Zelenskiy’s chief of staff, Andrey Yermak.
The purpose of the report was to provide a security structure for Ukraine that guarantees Russia does not seek to invade again, and is separate from calls by Zelenskiy for the west to step up arms supplies to drive home the sudden advance by Ukrainian troops.
Ukraine’s possible future membership in Nato was one of the issues that Russia claimed as justification for its February invasion.
The report, the subject of wide diplomatic consultations, does not propose that Nato countries collectively should be required to offer their troops in defence of Ukraine’s sovereignty, but says there should be no restriction on the military diplomatic and economic help provided by Nato member countries through bilateral agreements. The level of support could be scalable according to the level of threat and should apply to all of Ukraine’s internationally recognised borders.
The report argues the “strongest security guarantee for Ukraine lies in its capacity to defend itself against an aggressor … To do so, Ukraine needs the resources to maintain a significant defensive force capable of withstanding the Russian Federation’s armed forces and paramilitaries.
“This requires a multi-decade effort of sustained investment in Ukraine’s defence industrial base, scalable weapons transfers and intelligence support from allies, intensive training missions and joint exercises under the European Union and Nato flags”.
A core group of allied countries that will be brought together with Ukraine includes the US, UK, Canada, Poland, Italy, Germany, France, Australia, Turkey, and Nordic, Baltic, central and eastern European countries.
The military guarantees might provide commitments to Ukraine that amount to “a closed sky” through the provision of anti-aircraft and anti-missile defence equipment.
The guarantees, the report suggests, should not require Ukraine to limit the size or strength of its armed forces, or to adopt a position of neutrality, but it would require Ukraine to remain on a democratic path.
Critics of the report will question the enforceability of the proposed legal guarantees, the scale of financial support required, and the threat that such a powerful army might not only act in self-defence.
Ukrainian forces will be trained to Nato standard and at the scale needed to build a robust territorial defence force and reserve force, including a form of conscription for those civilians aged over 18. The training activities will be supported by an extensive exercise programme both on Ukrainian soil and with Ukrainian forces on EU or Nato territory.
Non-Nato countries such as South Korea might provide non-military guarantees such as a commitment to sanctions in the event of a further Russian attack. A legal framework should be developed that will allow authorities to seize the property of the aggressor, its sovereign funds and reserves, and the assets of its citizens and entities on the sanctions list.
Sanctions would not be lifted until Russia stops its aggression against Ukraine, guarantees it will not attack Ukraine in the future, and compensates Ukraine for the damages caused during the invasion.
Rasmussen said: “Once this war is over, we must ensure that Russia can never invade again. The best way to do that is by Ukraine having a significant military force capable of withstanding any future Russian attack. Building and maintaining such a force requires a multi-decade commitment from Ukraine’s allies.
“Adopting these recommendations would send a strong signal to Vladimir Putin. It would show that our commitment to Ukraine will not falter, that his war is futile”.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/13/long-term-military-investment-proposed-as-alternative-to-ukraine-joining-nato
259 Re: Is there going to be a war? Wed Sep 14 2022, 17:45
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
“Adopting these recommendations would send a strong signal to Vladimir Putin"
Understatement of the week. It's tantamount to joining NATO in everything but name.
If Finland etc join the lines will be well and truly drawn and Putin will be apoplectic.
Understatement of the week. It's tantamount to joining NATO in everything but name.
If Finland etc join the lines will be well and truly drawn and Putin will be apoplectic.
260 Re: Is there going to be a war? Wed Sep 14 2022, 20:10
Sluffy
Admin
Just to put it into some context about the current ability of Russia to recruit anyone to fight in the Ukraine, the video below shows the head of the Wagner Mercenary company - Putin's chef believe it or not - read about him here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Prigozhin
...recruiting from prison's!
The video has as English translation as to what he is saying -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Prigozhin
...recruiting from prison's!
The video has as English translation as to what he is saying -
PMC Wagner Group Evgeny Prigozhin is at a penal colony looking for new assault infantry to join his company. Refers to some of those who served 30 years in prison and died in battle as "heroes". pic.twitter.com/Gp3IOVHuAq
— Dmitri (@wartranslated) September 14, 2022
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum