Sean Dyche - a question for Copper

You level the "good at PR" thing at Dyche like it's a criticism.

Given how shady and secretive our Chairman and owner are, maybe the fans would appreciate a bit of an opportunity to see the manager in the flesh and speak to him.

I'd certainly respect and trust him a lot more if he did it.

But he can't, can he.....?

Dyche called the Burnley board out and demanded they back his assertion that there weren't any secret agendas or schisms at Burnley and it paid off.....because it was obviously true.

Can we say the same at Bolton?

Can we fuck......

Nobody trusts Gartside and whatever Freedman came out with would just be sen as more propaganda from the club, ie Gartside.

If all that money hadn't disappeared, we'd probably still have some faith in what we were being told by the club but all we've ever heard is "Don't worry, it's not a problem, trust me.......I've got the club's best interests at heart" from the clown who has presided over our demise and who has proven that he's only interested in "what's best for Phil" by his finagling of his way onto the FA Board and his ridiculous "Two Tier" Premier League bollocks....

Thanks to Pete for the inspiration to bang on at such length.

It's not meant to sound like a criticism of Sean Dyche - he's done a great job. Just saying that the circumstances he inherited were right for a new manager (whereas Stan made out he's a miracle worker)

And as you point out, whoever took on the Bolton job was walking into a trap.

But I agree that Dougie tows the party line of pretending everything's good which is a mistake IMO, but who's to say if he came out and was more open that he wouldn't get sacked?

wanderlust wrote:
He inherited a Premiership set up which helped and whilst the squad was thin, the fact is he had Ings, Vokes (a ready made Juke)  Arfield, Shackell, Stanislas, Heaton and Trippier "the best right back in the league" so although he hadn't got a big squad he had quality in his starting X1.

I'm sorry Wanderlust but it doesn't matter how many times you keep saying that, you are just plain wrong. No Burnley fan on the planet would say that we had a 'Premiership set up' at the beginning of last season.

You also keep mentioning Ings and Vokes, if you or anyone else are honest, you'd say that you'd barely heard of either of them at the beginning of last season. Virtually every Burnley fan (myself included) thought that we needed two forwards in to replace Paterson and Austin because the two we were left with hadn't done anything to suggest that they were going to be the best strike partnership in the division. The Dyche effect.

Arfield - a free transfer from Huddersfield who wasn't wanted by them and couldn't get a game. Dyche again.

Stanislas - the bit part player for Burnley, never showed the consistency to suggest that he would help a team to promotion, and he really didn't.

We had nothing like a Premier League set up, from players to budget, from training ground to actual ground and you could really say that we still don't have a Premier League set up and we are actually there.


Edit -Oh and Tom Heaton was a free transfer from Bristol C who'd conceded over 80 goals the previous season when they were relegated. Can you imagine this board if you'd bought a goalie who let in that many goals?   We were happy with that signing though, we knew that he was a decent goalie.

Copper Dragon wrote:

wanderlust wrote:
He inherited a Premiership set up which helped and whilst the squad was thin, the fact is he had Ings, Vokes (a ready made Juke)  Arfield, Shackell, Stanislas, Heaton and Trippier "the best right back in the league" so although he hadn't got a big squad he had quality in his starting X1.

I'm sorry Wanderlust but it doesn't matter how many times you keep saying that, you are just plain wrong. No Burnley fan on the planet would say that we had a 'Premiership set up' at the beginning of last season.

You also keep mentioning Ings and Vokes, if you or anyone else are honest, you'd say that you'd barely heard of either of them at the beginning of last season. Virtually every Burnley fan (myself included) thought that we needed two forwards in to replace Paterson and Austin because the two we were left with hadn't done anything to suggest that they were going to be the best strike partnership in the division. The Dyche effect.

Arfield - a free transfer from Huddersfield who wasn't wanted by them and couldn't get a game. Dyche again.

Stanislas - the bit part player for Burnley, never showed the consistency to suggest that he would help a team to promotion, and he really didn't.

We had nothing like a Premier League set up, from players to budget, from training ground to actual ground and you could really say that we still don't have a Premier League set up and we are actually there.


Edit -Oh and Tom Heaton was a free transfer from Bristol C who'd conceded over 80 goals the previous season when they were relegated. Can you imagine this board if you'd bought a goalie who let in that many goals?   We were happy with that signing though, we knew that he was a decent goalie.

By "premiership set up" I meant the club was recently relegated and still had the infrastructure in place. 

You are right that few people knew about the playing talent that Dyche inherited, and most didn't suspect it but that's not the point is it?
The point is that these players actually had the talent - last season proved it.
If they hadn't had the talent in the first place no manager would have been able to get them to perform, but as it turned out they had.

Now Dyche bringing out the good performances from these players is a different issue and I have already said he did a great job of it.

But it remains a fact that he had good material to work with - regardless of whether he/we knew it or not at the time.

Having that quality gave him an enormous advantage which is why I suggested he got a better deal than Dougie.

He didn't inherit it though.

When Dyche came in as manager he asked the players what they thought they needed as a group. They told him that they were a soft touch and that they were letting too many goals in (2.5 goals a game average). Dyche with the exact same defence to what Howe had, made them into the meanest in the entire division.

The other instrumental parts to our success were that he brought in on free transfers David Jones and Scott Arfield then Kightly on loan.

Chris McCann went to Wigan and Jones replaced him, Jones and Marney were the perfect partnership and were a major reason why we could play with just two in the middle of the park, something that we couldn't do with McCann and Marney in there.

Arfield came in and Dyche put him out on the wing, a position that he had never played before at Falkirk or Huddersfield.

Kightly scored some very important goals for us at the back end of last season, but most importantly he was an exceptional grafter, something that Stanislas was not.

What Dyche inherited was a first team where a third were out of contract and weren't for signing new ones, a powder puff midfield, a defence which let too many goals in, two forwards who didn't look up to the job (even though one showed promise) and a League 1 budget to work with.

You can't really compare what Douglas had to work with to what Dyche had to work with.

Copper Dragon wrote:He didn't inherit it though.

When Dyche came in as manager he asked the players what they thought they needed as a group. They told him that they were a soft touch and that they were letting too many goals in (2.5 goals a game average). Dyche with the exact same defence to what Howe had, made them into the meanest in the entire division.

The other instrumental parts to our success were that he brought in on free transfers David Jones and Scott Arfield then Kightly on loan.

Chris McCann went to Wigan and Jones replaced him, Jones and Marney were the perfect partnership and were a major reason why we could play with just two in the middle of the park, something that we couldn't do with McCann and Marney in there.

Arfield came in and Dyche put him out on the wing, a position that he had never played before at Falkirk or Huddersfield.

Kightly scored some very important goals for us at the back end of last season, but most importantly he was an exceptional grafter, something that Stanislas was not.

What Dyche inherited was a first team where a third were out of contract and weren't for signing new ones, a powder puff midfield, a defence which let too many goals in, two forwards who didn't look up to the job (even though one showed promise) and a League 1 budget to work with.

You can't really compare what Douglas had to work with to what Dyche had to work with.

We could debate it Stan but I'd argue that whilst the impact of the two signings and the loanee were important, by far the biggest contribution was made by the players Dyche inherited, not least Ings and Vokes with 42 goals between them.

And as you said yourself, the meanest defence in the League was also already at the club.

It's true - you can't compare what Douglas had to work with to what Dyche had to work with...

Dyche inherited the players with the talent to be the most prolific strike force and the meanest defence in the division.

If Douglas had inherited not one but TWO 20 goal a season strikers we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

You think anyone would score 20 goals in a Bolton side? I don't. Whens the last time it happened?

Hipster_Nebula wrote:You think anyone would score 20 goals in a Bolton side? I don't. Whens the last time it happened?

Possibly. They current strikers have missed 20 presentable chances in 4 games already this season which by extension means they'll get a further 210 chances to score before the season is out even if we don't improve 

However this conversation is about players having the potential to be 20 goal a season striker and Ings and Vokes proved beyond any doubt they had - by doing it.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:You think anyone would score 20 goals in a Bolton side? I don't. Whens the last time it happened?

Michael Ricketts 2000/1 - 24 (19 league, 2 playoffs, 2 FA Cup, 1 League Cup).

wanderlust wrote:We could debate it Stan but I'd argue that whilst the impact of the two signings and the loanee were important, by far the biggest contribution was made by the players Dyche inherited, not least Ings and Vokes with 42 goals between them.

And as you said yourself, the meanest defence in the League was also already at the club.

It's true - you can't compare what Douglas had to work with to what Dyche had to work with...

Dyche inherited the players with the talent to be the most prolific strike force and the meanest defence in the division.

If Douglas had inherited not one but TWO 20 goal a season strikers we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing Wanderlust. 

Like I've said Dyche didn't inherit a 40 odd goal strike force, he inherited reserve strike force with a couple of goals between them and not many games.  Yes they had talent but so did Douglas' men who were brimmed with ex Premier League players.

Any road I've come up with a (combined) best side from who started in that first game for both sides last season, who I thought would have been the better players (bear in mind what happened the season before and what I've already said).....

Heaton
Trippier
Wheater
Shackell
Tierney
Marney
Pratley
Lee
Eagles
Beckford
Ings

Absolutely no hindsight used and I thought that we would have lost that game. 

Copper Dragon wrote:

wanderlust wrote:We could debate it Stan but I'd argue that whilst the impact of the two signings and the loanee were important, by far the biggest contribution was made by the players Dyche inherited, not least Ings and Vokes with 42 goals between them.

And as you said yourself, the meanest defence in the League was also already at the club.

It's true - you can't compare what Douglas had to work with to what Dyche had to work with...

Dyche inherited the players with the talent to be the most prolific strike force and the meanest defence in the division.

If Douglas had inherited not one but TWO 20 goal a season strikers we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing Wanderlust. 

Like I've said Dyche didn't inherit a 40 odd goal strike force, he inherited reserve strike force with a couple of goals between them and not many games.  Yes they had talent but so did Douglas' men who were brimmed with ex Premier League players.

Knew you'd get there in the end. Well almost. The distinction is between actual and perceived talent.

Dyche inherited actual talent (as hindsight shows)
Freedman inherited perceived talent (and hindsight showed that it was an incorrect perception)

wanderlust wrote:Knew you'd get there in the end. Well almost. The distinction is between actual and perceived talent.

Sorry but I'm not almost there, well where you think. I'm still at the 'you're plain wrong' stage.

Although you are correct about the distinction between actual talent and perceived talent. Dyche has it and Douglas doesn't and perhaps that is the reason why 4th favourites for relegation ended up promoted and Premier League player brimmed Bolton who finished 7th the season before, ended up in the bottom half.