euro referendum 23rd June

Did Dave get the UK a good deal? Are you in or out? I look forward to a great debate!

Nothing's really changed, has it?

A lot of bluff and bluster but no real concessions achieved when you actually break it down.

The only positive change appears to be that half his cabinet have sodded off in a sulk, thus formalising the rift that we already suspected existed.

Always a bonus - try achieving a parliamentary mandate on anything when your party's so obviously divided.

Anyway, I'm all for staying in.

I like being a European.

I'm voting OUT no matter what. I never wanted to be in the EU in the first bloody place and it makes my blood boil.

Dave is a spineless bastard and has done more U-turns on stuff than can remember, the whole party is a joke.

Cameron it is time you stepped down and took the conservatives with you and pissed off!

Anybody watching BBC News?

How massive's that bloke's head?

It's the bloody Mekon!

(Sir Steven Wall apparently.)

Out for me, we need to protect our borders, not much to sell in England really, and no other country is going to turn down money.

A few days ago I was 80/20 for staying in. That's now 70/30 and I suspect that like a lot of other people the ground is shifting. It's not such a good deal as it didn't get near the real issues of the cost to the UK of staying in against the financial benefits of doing so. The cost of EU citizens child benefits is a pinprick in terms of the overall costs of membership. The real issue is whether trade barriers and tariffs will rise if we pull out- and we're not getting much info on that.
All the benefits stuff is a populist smokescreen concealing the real issues. It's good flag waving, vote winning stuff- but there are a lot more serious issues that need to be aired. I doubt if we'll see them being raised in any serious way though as most politicians will think that we're too thick to understand how the EU actually works.

rammywhite wrote:A few days ago I was 80/20 for staying in. That's now 70/30 and I suspect that like a lot of other people the ground is shifting. It's not such a good deal as it didn't get near the real issues of the cost to the UK of staying in against the financial benefits of doing so. The cost of EU citizens child benefits is a pinprick in terms of the overall costs of membership. The real issue is whether trade barriers and tariffs will rise if we pull out- and we're not getting much info on that.
All the benefits stuff is a populist smokescreen concealing the real issues. It's good flag waving, vote winning stuff- but there are a lot more serious issues that need to be aired. I doubt if we'll see them being raised in any serious way though as most politicians will think that we're too thick to understand how the EU actually works.

That's how I was trying to sell staying in to my 73 year old father in law this morning.

I asked him if he'd considered what would happen if we did pull out and all the trade tariffs got redrawn at less favourable rates.

He just looked at me like I was speaking Chinese.

And then said: "Er.........yeah, but it'd stop the immigration and stuff."

UKIP target market, right there.

No idea what he's talking about but Honest Nige strikes a chord with his inherent xenophobia, so he'll probably vote along with him.

I've had a look over the pros and cons of what it would mean to leave but it's all very complicated. I don't mind admitting it's all well above what I can take in and understand as a whole and so I have no idea if it's a good thing or not to leave. There's all the models that other countries work to but everything apparently has consequences, such as France and Germany etc just telling us to piss off and making life difficult when it comes to trade agreements but on the plus side we could have our own justice and immigration laws etc.  Politics is not my thing, so I'll just go with the flow. What will be will be. Maybe the brainboxes on here could explain things in lehmanns terms for us thickos?

I'm sure you are not thick mate (although I think you may have meant 'layman's' terms rather than those of the former German goalkeeper - or maybe I missed the joke!).

I don't think anybody can give a simple and quick answer  so I'll try to generalise things as I see them.

Basically people have to decide if they want to be on there own, with more say about things locally but not much outside of themselves, or join in to make a bigger group with more of an influence on the wider world but at the same time having to share the direction of things and not always getting what we want.

The big businesses and corporate world see more money in being in something big than something little, whilst the small man or woman is more effected by day to day stuff like benefit cheats and increased immigration effecting them in such ways as housing, health and education.

Somewhere in the middle is where we want to be - but is the middle this side or that side of the being in the EU?

I guess it depends where you stand and what is important to you and your family that determines your view on that.

There will be scaremongering on both sides of the fence, those saying if we left the EU our trade would suffer and that would effect our economy and cost us more and lose us jobs, whilst those who want us out of the EU would say if we didn't we would end up with mass immigration that we would have to support in terms of benefits, housing, education and health etc, which would end up costing us more and because there is a bigger workforce willing to work for less money - effecting your wages and future wealth.

I personally can't see the EU 'blocking' us out of everything if we did leave the EU, nor such things as immigration and pay levels, etc, changing that vastly in the future if we did stop in the EU than if we had of left.

I do think however that one size does not fit all and that we should have some say and power over things that do effect us.

I guess that probably puts me more in the 'out of the EU' camp than in it but I think I will probably be in the minority on this nationally.

Hope this helps in some way.

I'm voting to stay in. The only reason we are having a referendum is because the Tory right is obsessed with the EU (remember John Major calling them bastards?). There were never going to be significant concessions because if there were every other country would start asking for special treatment.

I think we are better off in than out. We are no longer a major power and should stop pretending we are. And finally if I were undecided about it I would only have to look at the people that are in the Brexit campaign (Farage, Galloway, Kate Hoey, Daily Express, Daily Mail, Gove, Grayling, IDS and other assorted Tory scumbags) to know that there is no way I want to be associated with them.

Sluffy wrote:I'm sure you are not thick mate (although I think you may have meant 'layman's' terms rather than those of the former German goalkeeper - or maybe I missed the joke!).

I don't think anybody can give a simple and quick answer  so I'll try to generalise things as I see them.

Basically people have to decide if they want to be on there own, with more say about things locally but not much outside of themselves, or join in to make a bigger group with more of an influence on the wider world but at the same time having to share the direction of things and not always getting what we want.

The big businesses and corporate world see more money in being in something big than something little, whilst the small man or woman is more effected by day to day stuff like benefit cheats and increased immigration effecting them in such ways as housing, health and education.

Somewhere in the middle is where we want to be - but is the middle this side or that side of the being in the EU?

I guess it depends where you stand and what is important to you and your family that determines your view on that.

There will be scaremongering on both sides of the fence, those saying if we left the EU our trade would suffer and that would effect our economy and cost us more and lose us jobs, whilst those who want us out of the EU would say if we didn't we would end up with mass immigration that we would have to support in terms of benefits, housing, education and health etc, which would end up costing us more and because there is a bigger workforce willing to work for less money - effecting your wages and future wealth.

I personally can't see the EU 'blocking' us out of everything if we did leave the EU, nor such things as immigration and pay levels, etc, changing that vastly in the future if we did stop in the EU than if we had of left.

I do think however that one size does not fit all and that we should have some say and power over things that do effect us.

I guess that probably puts me more in the 'out of the EU' camp than in it but I think I will probably be in the minority on this nationally.

Hope this helps in some way.

Just a little German reference for no particular reason other than a play on words there Sluff. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

Cheers for trying to explain it all as well. Very complicated stuff all this.

I'm for staying in. Frankly the main reason so many Euro-sceptics want out is down to nothing more than xenophobia. Nigel Farage has done a great job of selling the old fashioned mantra that "Johnny Foreigner" is going to take over your job and corrupt your daughters while the Daily Mail leads the Little England brigade with utter garbage about how swarthy East European immigrants are coming here to suck off the Welfare State when they're not stealing everything in sight.

For those who don't know the total immigrant population of the entire UK is less than 1% and most of them come from outside the EU. A great many are students studying here, others are here because they've fled war and persecution in their own lands. There are some who abuse the system but the truth is they are a tiny minority. However that inconvenient fact doesn't sell newspapers nor does the admission that the reason why so many immigrants get 'our' jobs is because we don't want to do them. This is nothing new, in the 50's and 60's a lot of people came here from the West Indies to do things like drive buses and empty bins because no one here was willing to take on such 'menial'  and low paid tasks. Today's immigrants are cleaners, labourers and work for less than their British counterparts. But again, Farage and the looney right can't say that because it doesn't fit in with the things they want to sell.

The fact is that the out crowd only know how to do two things. Tell us what they want us to be afraid of and who they want us to blame for it. Nigel Farage is the slightly more acceptable version of Nick Griffin and the BNP. Make no mistake, this entire drive to get us out of the EU is simply the first step on a very slippery slope and the rhetoric being used by these people is little different from that used in "Mein Kampf". You may think I'm exaggerating and that is your right but I don't believe I am and frankly the growth in the far right's popularity among the ordinary people is really starting to worry me a lot.

I was always a supporter of the EU and believed that we would be stronger together as a trading bloc and have a greater  common interest on the world stage. However in recent times it has become apparent that it is undemocratic, unaccountable and run largely for the benefit of Europe's political elite. It is incapable of speaking with one voice as the member countries are too diverse, economically, culturally and politically and getting anything agreed let alone acted upon is nigh on impossible.

Going it alone will not miraculously solve all our problems and we may well enter some very choppy waters particularly at the outset but at least we will be in control of our own destiny and will stand or fall by our own decisions. For what it is worth, probably not get much, I don't think it will survive in the long term in any event, the richer nations will always have to subsidise the weaker economies making the Euro difficult to manage and Schengen will also fail unless they get there act together and help Greece, Turkey and Italy cope with the flood of migrants instead of threatening them. The Greeks have all but been abandoned in this, even after the EU effectively bankrupt ed the country for generations to come.

For all we grumble at times we should remember that the UK is still the world's 5th largest economy, the 4th largest military power and has a permanent seat at the UN security counci. We can survive outside the EU.

Another problem with leaving the EU is that it will almost certainly lead to the breakup of the UK with the Scots demanding independence. Then we won't have the 5th largest economy or be the 4th largest military power any more. Not that I'm convinced we are currently the 4th largest military power now anyway.

I'm tilting towards remaining. However, I'm genuinely concerned at what started as a trading bloc, is now trying to become a political entity in its own right, i.e. a United Europe. We have already seen how our own laws, and views, have been changed, even though we don't agree in principle with them.
Because of our national habit of following all laws to the utmost, (unlike Germany, and France in particular), the management of our legal system by unelected European Quangos is affecting how we live more than we like. Although there are many laws, particularly regarding employment, that have benefited us, many are ridiculous, such as the shape of our vegetables/fruit, all the way to a flawed human Rights charter.
I like the freedom of travelling freely in Europe, but I feel we need to take back some control of our own law-making processes.

gloswhite wrote:I'm genuinely concerned at what started as a trading bloc, is now trying to become a political entity in its own right, i.e. a United Europe. We have already seen how our own laws, and views, have been changed, even though we don't agree in principle with them.

This is one of the reasons why I am out.

I like the freedom of travelling freely in Europe, but I feel we need to take back some control of our own law-making processes.

This will not make any real difference IMO and they will still welcome Brits abroad due to the amount of money they make from tourism, you will still be able to cross boarders etc with a passport as normal.

I'm going to wait and see what each side puts forward, whilst trying to ignore the bullshit and politics. (I know, there won't be very much left).
Having lived in Germany, and my sister still living there, I have to admit that I like the European way of life. However, I prefer our more independent style of living, but we are our own worst enemies for slavishly following rules. If we can break that, then I'm happy.

I am on holiday in a country where over half the people have aids and the prime minister came on telly and admitted he had unprotected sex in an affair but wouldn't catch aids because he had a shower afterwards, where a rich Indian family ( guptas) finance the anc puppet government in return for economic favours, where the rich predominantly racist whites are getting their money out of the country as fast as possible so there is zero investment in maintaining the country's infrastructure, where the average lifespan is 42, where most people go to a shaman to cure illness or make people fall in love with them and where b on b murder, rape, slavery and child abuse is the lifestyle in every township, where the extremes of wealth and poverty share the same street all in an idyllic and beautiful country. Our problems re Europe are nothing.

If only it was that simple.