Brexit - A new twist!

whatsgoingon wrote:

xmiles wrote:It is only then that people can make a decision based on fact rather than wild claims.

But can they? we aren't going to see all the official documentation and even if we did it would be very much open to individual interpretation.
the campaign at that point would be equally divisive and equally emotive and therefore equally subjective because every single point on it would be open to different viewpoints.
As well as that all the scaremongering remoaners who have been forecasting the end of the world as we know it will have scared some into changing allegiance based on nothing more than fear.
There aren't facts in this, only points of reference and different peoples interpretations of them.

But the difference is that once terms have been agreed there will be facts. No doubt that won't constrain parties from interpreting and distorting those facts but nevertheless there will be actual facts. Whereas how many facts were available before the referendum?

What exactly is the point of having a vote if the will of the people is ignored simply because the establishment don't agree with the outcome. We live in a democracy and the people voted leave. It is the Governments job to honour the decision and get on with it, not look for ways to move the goalposts.

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, in all honestly, and a genuine question, how would Labour manage the current situation, (if they had a united party) ?. As for looking after everyone, they are renowned for giving everything away, especially peoples money, in an attempt to make everyone 'vanilla'. We can't all be the same, and at least the Tory lot will be generating money, (although I do agree they need to be made to release more).

Honest answer: very badly. Corbyn is a disaster. He is not a leader and his mindset was fixed back in the 70s. Labour will never be united under him and are effectively unelectable now.

As for giving everything away that is exactly what the Tories do. Look at all the stuff they have privatised. Now it is outsoucing. This means they give one sided contracts to large multi-national companies to provide services at greater cost than the public sector. Just look at recent scandals involving G4S and Serco. The Tories only generate money for these companies and their wealthy cronies. Average incomes in this country have not kept pace with inflation whilst the rich have got massively wealthier. We are a very unequal society, far worse than most developed countries, and it is getting worse. Please read this for details:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi03-P1847QAhUkIcAKHXiKAXQQFgg5MAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalitytrust.org.uk%2Fscale-economic-inequality-uk&usg=AFQjCNEJR7uRsPJf_Ale2zU5-9CZYm8SfA&sig2=V-c2WJQirY4d-jEiYB2Zcw

Had a look at the link, and I agree with you. Too much money is held by too few people, and it is these people we need to get it from, I know it got worse under Cameron, but hasn't this always been the case ?
Well turned around saying that the Tories give everything away, but at least money remains in the economy. I still feel that the Labour way is to have everything privatised, paid for by fewer and fewer workers, with what they see as middle class, bearing the brunt of the payments.

Reebok Trotter wrote:What exactly is the point of having a vote if the will of the people is ignored simply because the establishment don't agree with the outcome. We live in a democracy and the people voted leave. It is the Governments job to honour the decision and get on with it, not look for ways to move the goalposts.

RT, you'll have noticed that all of a sudden, the referendum is conveniently 'advisory'.
You will also have noticed that some MP's, Lammy (Lab.), is one, who says he will vote against article 50 vote, as his constituents wanted to remain. 
Many seem to think this latest step will derail Brexit, but its only whether the decision is made through the royal prerogative, or Parliament. Personally, I don't give a shit, as its only the first step, and it will be made. The delay will cause us even more problems, which some seem to be unable to grasp
As an aside, I laughed when the woman who called the case, who happened to be a fund manager, said she did it to maintain the sovereignty of Parliament. What a hypocrite, its all about the money for her and 'her team'.

xmiles wrote:

Reebok Trotter wrote:

Norpig wrote:So we spend months and months thrashing out deals with the EU and then come back and have another referendum? How does this help this country in the meantime? What do we do then, have a best of 5 or keep going till you get the result you want?

I voted remain but we lost and we have to get over it and get on with getting the best deals for us.

Exactly. We can't keep having more elections until the [other side] finally get their way.

And yet this was the policy of the brexiters. If they didn't win they said they would keep carrying on until they did.

And old Nigel is threatening to get back on his horse!
Doesn't like Europe but sits in their parliament and takes the cash. Morally defunct for me that guy and an odious twat to boot.

Let's not forget we had a referendum based on hidden nuts on both sides, with scare threats from Boy George. Perhaps both sides big hitters should have concentrated on producing the facts rather than jostling for positions with their careers. The whole scenario is a bag of rats for which the have nots will lose most, of that there is no doubt.

Lot of truth in what you say there SK.

gloswhite wrote:

Reebok Trotter wrote:What exactly is the point of having a vote if the will of the people is ignored simply because the establishment don't agree with the outcome. We live in a democracy and the people voted leave. It is the Governments job to honour the decision and get on with it, not look for ways to move the goalposts.

RT, you'll have noticed that all of a sudden, the referendum is conveniently 'advisory'.
You will also have noticed that some MP's, Lammy (Lab.), is one, who says he will vote against article 50 vote, as his constituents wanted to remain. 
Many seem to think this latest step will derail Brexit, but its only whether the decision is made through the royal prerogative, or Parliament. Personally, I don't give a shit, as its only the first step, and it will be made. The delay will cause us even more problems, which some seem to be unable to grasp
As an aside, I laughed when the woman who called the case, who happened to be a fund manager, said she did it to maintain the sovereignty of Parliament. What a hypocrite, its all about the money for her and 'her team'.

The referendum was always advisory due to the wording of the relevant legislation. Maybe because Cameron thought he would win it and maybe because the anti-EU loonies in the Tory party wanted it to be advisory so that if they lost they could still campaign for another referendum.

We do live in a parliamentary democracy with an independent judiciary so all the outrage at the High Court decision is ridiculous.

The Courts ruling, rightly, says that Parliament needs to vote on the terms before Article 50 is invoked, nothing to do with changing or disregarding the result.

I don't think anyone on here's disputing that fact and that's a big part of what I found so amusing yesterday, as I read all the comments on the Mail and Telegraph websites from all the "Outraged of Tunbridge Wells" types out there.

Not only did these idiots not understand what they were voting for back in June, they're now demonstrating that they're too thick to understand what this latest development means too.

Large numbers of them obviously believe that the ruling yesterday was about whether or not A50 can ever be triggered or not.

The main crux of the point about it having to go before parliament is lost on them and they think those three judges basically delivered a judgement stating that Brexit's off.

Idiots...

Its all about championing democracy when it suits Bread, the other factor being that people only ever read the headline and not the rest of the story.

gloswhite wrote:I still feel that the Labour way is to have everything privatised, paid for by fewer and fewer workers, with what they see as middle class, bearing the brunt of the payments.

Sorry Glos, but when has privatisation ever been the Labour way? Even New Labour never went as far the Tories have.

And another twist:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37872899

Don't you think that there were just as many "thick" people on the Remain side as on the Leave side....especially those eminences who led campaigns one way or the other, and who simply failed to make the case rationally, persuasively and honestly and without exaggeration? DC and GO spring to mind!

I find it staggering that folk can claim to "know" with an absolute certainty why thousands of constituents voted the way they did. No issue in life is ever simply black and white and no one is in a position to judge others' motivations, as though they are some superior omniscient god.

However, I'd suggest that sneering at the masses for their choices is extremely unbecoming and ignorant.

Again, I can only speak with any authority on the evidence of my own experience.

And without exception, 100% of the Leave voters I know (and they are manifold) voted that way because they wanted to send all the Poles back and stop Muslims coming to this country.

And that nice Mr Farage told them that's what would start happening on June 24th.

And they believed him.

Along with the extra £350m a week that the NHS would start receiving.

Which he subsequently admitted was a load of made-up bullshit.

Conversely, 100% of the Remain voters I know did so because they couldn't see any cogent argument for leaving the EU. They're not EU fanatics, they just hadn't been given any fact-based reason to justify leaving it.

So on balance and from my own personal experience, I'd say my lot were brighter and a lot more rounded and balanced in their thought processes than the other lot.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37872899

Another frickin drama queen. For god sake isn't the point of being an MP to fight for what you believe in and not go flouncing off in a huff when you can't get your way.

bwfc1874 wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I still feel that the Labour way is to have everything privatised, paid for by fewer and fewer workers, with what they see as middle class, bearing the brunt of the payments.

Sorry Glos, but when has privatisation ever been the Labour way? Even New Labour never went as far the Tories have.

You're right 74, I complete cocked that up. I did of course mean public/state ownership

My tuppence worth having read the thread and mostly enjoyed it.

The referendum was advisory only. The legislation passed to enable it to occur was unequivocal on that point. I agree that wasn't clearly communicated, but there is no doubt what the law said.

I believe the judges were right to do what they did. Irrespective of what side of the brexit argument you are on, the very fact it is so huge and divisive means that the organisation which is sovereign, e.g. Parliament, should decide on it, not delegate this elsewhere or have the executive make a decision.

I agree with Tim Farron (cue the abuse). We have voted for a departure, but not a destination. Once the destination is known, it could be the fire to staying in the EU frying pan. Stretching the analogy too far, we could help make the frying pan better if we are inside it, but not if we are not, and irrespective of our membership, we can not be divorced from the impact of the eu on global trade, security, environmental concerns etc.

I am bewildered and appalled in equal measure by the front pages of some of the press. They come close to inciting violence and hatred to my mind, and an already divisive and volatile situation does not need further flame fanning.

Have you missed me?

Yes, indubitably.

I hope things are on the up health-wise and you're feeling a bit more like your old self.

This site needs the calming influence that you bring.

Welcome home.

Chairmanda wrote:
I am bewildered and appalled in equal measure by the front pages of some of the press. They come close to inciting violence and hatred to my mind, and an already divisive and volatile situation does not need further flame fanning.

The behaviour of papers like the Daily Mail and the Sun is completely unacceptable. Needless to say May and that useless gimp Liz Truss have said nothing.