Brexit negotiations

T.R.O.Y wrote:James O'Brien nailing it: 
We’re paying tens of billions of pounds to leave the world’s largest free trade area while surrendering all of our ability to define its rights & regulations.

All so that we can hopefully start negotiating an inferior arrangement with the world’s largest free trade area.

Let's hope they hand the billion pound bribe back!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42179387

And now the DUP are stopping a deal from being reached because they don't want to be different from the rest of the UK! In which case maybe they will legalise abortion and gay marriage and hand back the billion pound bribe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42217735

xmiles wrote:And now the DUP are stopping a deal from being reached because they don't want to be different from the rest of the UK! In which case maybe they will legalise abortion and gay marriage and hand back the billion pound bribe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42217735

Nicely put. Agree 100%

'Ulster says No'

How many times have we heard that over the last 100 years or so.
10 individuals virtually holding the UK to ransom. And you could even say holding 500 million European citizens to ransom. We were almost there!!

A plague on their house!!

Who'da thought anything could go wrong?

Apart from half the country that is.

wanderlust wrote:Who'da thought anything could go wrong?

Apart from half the country that is.

Indeed, reality bites I think even most Brexiteers (the non-crayon munching ones of course) would agree now that this is an absolute shambles and we won't be better off out.

T.R.O.Y wrote:
Indeed, reality bites I think even most Brexiteers would agree now that this is an absolute shambles and we won't be better off out.

Most Brexiteers I speak to agree it's a shambles but still believe - or at least still say publicly that we should leave. Whilst this is probably some form of denial, they argue that there was no way of knowing that it would be so difficult and it is the process rather than the principle that is faulty. 
Now whilst most Remainers and nearly all the "experts" knew full well what a disaster awaits us, it seems that the Leavers are becoming increasingly willing to accept a deal that doesn't deliver what they thought they were voting for and seem quite comfortable with accepting widespread job losses, cutbacks to services, a broken economy and years of debt and austerity rather than admitting they were duped.
This really p****s me off because they were very vocal at the time of the referendum, so why aren't they marching on Downing Street now to reiterate what they want to a Government that has repeatedly said they won't get what they voted for and yet is ploughing ahead regardless?

wanderlust wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:
Indeed, reality bites I think even most Brexiteers would agree now that this is an absolute shambles and we won't be better off out.

Most Brexiteers I speak to agree it's a shambles but still believe - or at least still say publicly that we should leave. Whilst this is probably some form of denial, they argue that there was no way of knowing that it would be so difficult and it is the process rather than the principle that is faulty. 
Now whilst most Remainers and nearly all the "experts" knew full well what a disaster awaits us, it seems that the Leavers are becoming increasingly willing to accept a deal that doesn't deliver what they thought they were voting for and seem quite comfortable with accepting widespread job losses, cutbacks to services, a broken economy and years of debt and austerity rather than admitting they were duped.
This really p****s me off because they were very vocal at the time of the referendum, so why aren't they marching on Downing Street now to reiterate what they want to a Government that has repeatedly said they won't get what they voted for and yet is ploughing ahead regardless?

Basically people find it hard to admit that they were wrong. No matter how much evidence is presented to them they will refuse to accept it. Even if we were reduced to living in mud huts in five years time some brexit fans would still be saying it's OK because we've taken back control.

Some people would be glad of a mud hut.

There have been a couple of bumps in the road that I wasn't expecting, otherwise things are going in the right direction. When you consider how many problems the remainers have caused with their constant moaning and delaying tactics, its a wonder we've even got to where we are, (not to mention the uncompromising stance of the EU).
Unfortunately, the whole country is now being held to account by a very small group of people, who, I have to say, do have a a legitimate argument, especially when you realise their whole existence has been based on unity with the rest of the UK. Many would think the strings in this are being pulled by the EU, (myself included), and that , all of a sudden, N. Ireland doesn't matter.

gloswhite wrote:There have been a couple of bumps in the road that I wasn't expecting, otherwise things are going in the right direction. When you consider how many problems the remainers have caused with their constant moaning and delaying tactics, its a wonder we've even got to where we are, (not to mention the uncompromising stance of the EU).
Unfortunately, the whole country is now being held to account by a very small group of people, who, I have to say, do have a a legitimate argument, especially when you realise their whole existence has been based on unity with the rest of the UK. Many would think the strings in this are being pulled by the EU, (myself included), and that , all of a sudden, N. Ireland doesn't matter.

The ‘remoaners’ haven’t caused any delays, every one of the governments Brexit bills has passed through parliament almost unopposed, you can’t use that as an excuse. 

Similarly moaning about the EU being stoic in their lack of compromise was something most of us saw coming, Farage and co’s line about French Champagne and German cars was all well and good but most of us realised that the EU would champion not making exiting an attractive option over keeping a couple of corporations happy.

T.R.O.Y wrote:

gloswhite wrote:There have been a couple of bumps in the road that I wasn't expecting, otherwise things are going in the right direction. When you consider how many problems the remainers have caused with their constant moaning and delaying tactics, its a wonder we've even got to where we are, (not to mention the uncompromising stance of the EU).
Unfortunately, the whole country is now being held to account by a very small group of people, who, I have to say, do have a a legitimate argument, especially when you realise their whole existence has been based on unity with the rest of the UK. Many would think the strings in this are being pulled by the EU, (myself included), and that , all of a sudden, N. Ireland doesn't matter.

The ‘remoaners’ haven’t caused any delays, every one of the governments Brexit bills has passed through parliament almost unopposed, you can’t use that as an excuse. 

Similarly moaning about the EU being stoic in their lack of compromise was something most of us saw coming, Farage and co’s line about French Champagne and German cars was all well and good but most of us realised that the EU would champion not making exiting an attractive option over keeping a couple of corporations happy.

Similarly moaning about the EU being stoic...


I wasn't moaning, and was careful not to call the remainers remoaners, however, no doubt you'll see what you want to see.

Hmm bit disappointed you’re quibbling over semantics rather than addressing the points. No offence was meant by using the word moan in either instance. More interested in how remainers have supposedly held up the process, or that the EU acting as one and not compromising is a surprise.

It wasn't a surprise, we were all aware that the main point they wanted to get across to other members was that it would not be easy to get out of the EU. They achieved this by holding out for the full, (and fair), payment of those commitments made. How many of the remaining countries could afford the massive payout we are committed to? 
On the crest of a wave, and dealing with a weakened government, gone was the goodwill, and fairness. Instead, they went further, and insisted on the ECJ holding sway in the UK for European immigrants. I don't know of any country allowed to make decisions affecting the law within another country.  
What direction the talks on the border will take, nobody knows.
The payment is how I thought it would go, eventually, but I feel they've just asked for too much with the other two items. The problem is that the demands are now driving the discussions down a cul-de-sac, and isolating influential factions, with a possible horrendous outcome for all. The UK government has bent over backwards, but they are still being pushed, and I believe if things aren't brought back to reality, instead of politic playing, then the UK will have no option but to walk away, and it won't be down to the UK negotiating team.
Having said all that, I wouldn't be surprised if, all of a sudden, solutions are found, and all will move ahead with great clapping and singing of praises.

I struggle to see how anyone who voted to leave can still think it's going in the right direction though. 

All the key promises made by the Leave campaign have already been broken*, so are they saying that the referendum leave manifesto is now irrelevant despite it being the platform on which a slender majority was achieved?

* £350 million a week for the NHS. Debunked as a lie the day after the result with Farage saying it was a mistake and everyone else back-pedalling like crazy.
* Brexit will reduce immigration. Remember Farage's "Breaking Point" campaign poster? As Tory Dannan said on Newsnight "We never said there would be a radical decline - we just want some control." and "anyone expecting immigration to come down will be disappointed". Subsequently all Brexit leaders have backed away from suggesting there will be any reduction whatsoever.
* Brexit won't affect the economy. The pound has plummeted, the economy has shrunk and France has overtaken the UK to become the 5th largest economy in the world.  Already over £200 billion has been wiped off the value of the UK stock market. And the worst is yet to come.
* Brexit wouldn't affect funding for the UK's joint research and science programmes. You'd have thought this would be essential if the UK was ever going to achieve the Tory's objectives of establishing the UK as a world leader in the sciences, but apparently it's not as the Government has ignored calls to match the EU's funding until 2020 to keep current programmes going. Meanwhile British scientists continue to lose their funding.
* That Brexit will reduce the cost of energy bills. Immediately debunked when it was recognised that most of our energy is imported and we're losing our EU funding for energy development. Government are yet to admit that household energy bills will rise substantially when we leave the EU.
* Turkey is about to join the EU and that will create another 5 million migrants. So UK relinquishes it's right to sanction Turkey joining, but that's OK as it's not likely to happen in our lifetime and anyway Ergodan has since suggested that Turkey may pull out of the joining process altogether.
* We are still going to have the option of staying in the single market. France and Germany have made it quite clear that we can't have access to the market without contributing to it or allowing freedom of movement.

I'm not sure if I've missed any of them out but it seems to me that everything that people voted for has turned out to be a complete and utter lie.

So how can anyone suggest it's going in the right direction?
And if they do, what direction is it, because it's obviously not the one that won a mandate from the British people.

The problem is that brexit voters just won't admit they were wrong no matter how much hard factual evidence is presented to them.
It is exactly the same in America where hardly any Trump voters have stopped supporting Trump despite all the evidence that he is a loose cannon.

xmiles wrote:The problem is that brexit voters just won't admit they were wrong no matter how much hard factual evidence is presented to them.
It is exactly the same in America where hardly any Trump voters have stopped supporting Trump despite all the evidence that he is a loose cannon.

I don't think it's a matter of being right or wrong, more that Leave voters have not protested about the fact that the Government is not capable of delivering what they voted for/what was promised.

If a party stood on the platform of say promising to cut taxes and improve services and then as soon as they were elected turned round and said they were not going spend anything on improving services and were going to increase taxes, you'd think that the people who voted for them would be rightfully outraged. As would the people who didn't vote for them. So why aren't Leave voters kicking off? 

There is some suggestion that a lot of people who voted to leave don't usually vote or participate in the democratic process and now that they have been let down have returned to grumbling behind the scenes but this can't be verified as researching Leave voters' current feelings about Brexit is taboo.

wanderlust wrote:

xmiles wrote:The problem is that brexit voters just won't admit they were wrong no matter how much hard factual evidence is presented to them.
It is exactly the same in America where hardly any Trump voters have stopped supporting Trump despite all the evidence that he is a loose cannon.

I don't think it's a matter of being right or wrong, more that Leave voters have not protested about the fact that the Government is not capable of delivering what they voted for/what was promised.

If a party stood on the platform of say promising to cut taxes and improve services and then as soon as they were elected turned round and said they were not going spend anything on improving services and were going to increase taxes, you'd think that the people who voted for them would be rightfully outraged. As would the people who didn't vote for them. So why aren't Leave voters kicking off? 

There is some suggestion that a lot of people who voted to leave don't usually vote or participate in the democratic process and now that they have been let down have returned to grumbling behind the scenes but this can't be verified as researching Leave voters' current feelings about Brexit is taboo.

The polls that have been taken show very little evidence of leave voters regretting voting leave. Given that there has been fairly extensive coverage of the negative consequences of leaving the EU I still put this down to the general reluctance of people (not just brexit voters) to admit they are wrong no matter what the evidence. It is part of the well known confirmation bias phenomenon where people look for evidence to support a view they have already taken and dismiss contrary evidence. One example of this is Gove's dismissal of the views of "experts".

The Times reports that the DUP were told a slightly untrue version of the EU deal, that May was not being totally honest with them and hoped to sign the deal publicly before exposure. May was apparently caught out following an early press release by an EU minister to an Irish newspaper that declared the UK Govt had surprisingly capitulated and given up Northern Ireland. No surprise at the DUP response which seems responsible imho.