Brexit negotiations

All in all, the last couple of days shows the government are panicking, and are becoming increasingly desperate to start trade talks. I still believe we should leave, and nothing will change that, but even I can't believe how badly things are being handled. I've got to the stage where I don't listen to the news as much as I did, even two weeks ago, because its utterly unbelievable how anything that can go wrong, has gone wrong, and not just Brexit. 
I'm sitting in my foxhole, waiting for either the big bang, or the outbreak of peace. Right now, it could go either way.

I was wondering to myself why recent politics have been so crazy.

Taking a step back, I realise that our politicians, all parties, are all pretty inept in actually making, and implementing, true political decisions. Most have the foresight of Lemmings, with the same skill sets.

For the last 40 years or so, since the increasing influence being exerted by the EU, NATO, and the UN, and our need to evade responsibility for possibly wrong decisions, our politicians have lost the initiative. 
I believe they have actually become more introverted, preferring the sniping and backbiting and the playing political games, to governing, and in so doing, have lost the art of true negotiation, and government.
Examples of this mindless and petty behaviour being the collapse of the Labour Party, and its lopsided resurrection, the poor state of the Tories, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning himself with something as petty as a pasty tax, bedroom tax, along with dubious decisions when going to war, etc. (no doubt we can all think of something).
To me it shows that we, and in particular the government, aided and abetted by our dependence on social media to make decisions by mob rule, have lost the ability to look past the next day, and actually make plans, and more importantly, stick to them. 
Petty politics, immediate responses to whoever is shouting the loudest, or just showing we will jump according to the media, is not the way forward. Our lamentable progress, as a society, as well as a political entity, is dispiriting. 
I believe Brexit has highlighted just how bad our political system, especially its players, have become, but I also believe that the public has changed to something different. Always, whingeing, complaining, seeking faults in absolutely everything, accusing, looking for immediate fixes, and in its drive to be 'fair' to every colour, creed, or belief, actually trampling over many peoples ideals and aspirations. 
To me, it has always been the minorities, who, because they are minorities, shout the loudest, (nothing wrong with that). Ordinarily, the government would be aware of this, and plan accordingly, but not nowadays it appears. As a result we are rattling down the track on a runaway train, where the minority, (including politicians), have influence well beyond their number, and the silent majority are taken for granted, and even ignored. We can see the result with us bouncing from pillar to post, politically, socially, and financially.
I believe that taking back our sovereignty, (for a start), will help focus our government on its true responsibilities, away from EU influences, (and yes, we do need them, but not on their terms), and will allow us to get back to those problems that need lasting solutions, suitable for the UK,whether its immigration, security, legal issues, or whatever. 
Hopefully, in the meantime, our politicians will gain a modicum of respect for themselves, for others, and the British public, and actually learn their trade to a much higher degree, and start performing as they should.
(Apologies for the ramble, but I had to say it)

gloswhite wrote:I was wondering to myself why recent politics have been so crazy.

Taking a step back, I realise that our politicians, all parties, are all pretty inept in actually making, and implementing, true political decisions. Most have the foresight of Lemmings, with the same skill sets.

For the last 40 years or so, since the increasing influence being exerted by the EU, NATO, and the UN, and our need to evade responsibility for possibly wrong decisions, our politicians have lost the initiative. 
I believe they have actually become more introverted, preferring the sniping and backbiting and the playing political games, to governing, and in so doing, have lost the art of true negotiation, and government.
Examples of this mindless and petty behaviour being the collapse of the Labour Party, and its lopsided resurrection, the poor state of the Tories, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning himself with something as petty as a pasty tax, bedroom tax, along with dubious decisions when going to war, etc. (no doubt we can all think of something).
To me it shows that we, and in particular the government, aided and abetted by our dependence on social media to make decisions by mob rule, have lost the ability to look past the next day, and actually make plans, and more importantly, stick to them. 
Petty politics, immediate responses to whoever is shouting the loudest, or just showing we will jump according to the media, is not the way forward. Our lamentable progress, as a society, as well as a political entity, is dispiriting. 
I believe Brexit has highlighted just how bad our political system, especially its players, have become, but I also believe that the public has changed to something different. Always, whingeing, complaining, seeking faults in absolutely everything, accusing, looking for immediate fixes, and in its drive to be 'fair' to every colour, creed, or belief, actually trampling over many peoples ideals and aspirations. 
To me, it has always been the minorities, who, because they are minorities, shout the loudest, (nothing wrong with that). Ordinarily, the government would be aware of this, and plan accordingly, but not nowadays it appears. As a result we are rattling down the track on a runaway train, where the minority, (including politicians), have influence well beyond their number, and the silent majority are taken for granted, and even ignored. We can see the result with us bouncing from pillar to post, politically, socially, and financially.
I believe that taking back our sovereignty, (for a start), will help focus our government on its true responsibilities, away from EU influences, (and yes, we do need them, but not on their terms), and will allow us to get back to those problems that need lasting solutions, suitable for the UK,whether its immigration, security, legal issues, or whatever. 
Hopefully, in the meantime, our politicians will gain a modicum of respect for themselves, for others, and the British public, and actually learn their trade to a much higher degree, and start performing as they should.
(Apologies for the ramble, but I had to say it)

Well put Bob!

gloswhite wrote:I was wondering to myself why recent politics have been so crazy.

Taking a step back, I realise that our politicians, all parties, are all pretty inept in actually making, and implementing, true political decisions. Most have the foresight of Lemmings, with the same skill sets.

For the last 40 years or so, since the increasing influence being exerted by the EU, NATO, and the UN, and our need to evade responsibility for possibly wrong decisions, our politicians have lost the initiative. 
I believe they have actually become more introverted, preferring the sniping and backbiting and the playing political games, to governing, and in so doing, have lost the art of true negotiation, and government.
Examples of this mindless and petty behaviour being the collapse of the Labour Party, and its lopsided resurrection, the poor state of the Tories, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning himself with something as petty as a pasty tax, bedroom tax, along with dubious decisions when going to war, etc. (no doubt we can all think of something).
To me it shows that we, and in particular the government, aided and abetted by our dependence on social media to make decisions by mob rule, have lost the ability to look past the next day, and actually make plans, and more importantly, stick to them. 
Petty politics, immediate responses to whoever is shouting the loudest, or just showing we will jump according to the media, is not the way forward. Our lamentable progress, as a society, as well as a political entity, is dispiriting. 
I believe Brexit has highlighted just how bad our political system, especially its players, have become, but I also believe that the public has changed to something different. Always, whingeing, complaining, seeking faults in absolutely everything, accusing, looking for immediate fixes, and in its drive to be 'fair' to every colour, creed, or belief, actually trampling over many peoples ideals and aspirations. 
To me, it has always been the minorities, who, because they are minorities, shout the loudest, (nothing wrong with that). Ordinarily, the government would be aware of this, and plan accordingly, but not nowadays it appears. As a result we are rattling down the track on a runaway train, where the minority, (including politicians), have influence well beyond their number, and the silent majority are taken for granted, and even ignored. We can see the result with us bouncing from pillar to post, politically, socially, and financially.
I believe that taking back our sovereignty, (for a start), will help focus our government on its true responsibilities, away from EU influences, (and yes, we do need them, but not on their terms), and will allow us to get back to those problems that need lasting solutions, suitable for the UK,whether its immigration, security, legal issues, or whatever. 
Hopefully, in the meantime, our politicians will gain a modicum of respect for themselves, for others, and the British public, and actually learn their trade to a much higher degree, and start performing as they should.
(Apologies for the ramble, but I had to say it)

I agree with some of the things you say but as you would expect not all of them.

The major disagreement I have is that I don't believe that politicians have fundamentally changed in recent years. They (apart from a few visionaries) have always been concerned with the short term and getting re-elected. What is different is how exposed politicians are to media coverage. The constant exposure means politicians have to deal with questions all the time and they have learned to be evasive which makes them appear even more untrustworthy.
I simply cannot see how "taking back our sovereignty, (for a start), will help focus our government on its true responsibilities, away from EU influences, (and yes, we do need them, but not on their terms), and will allow us to get back to those problems that need lasting solutions, suitable for the UK,whether its immigration, security, legal issues, or whatever". Politicians won't change just because we leave the EU. All the concerns you have will remain - the only difference will be that the Daily Mail and Sun can no longer blame the EU.

Good points Glos however I would add a loss of integrity to the charge of ineptitude. I genuinely feel that having power is more important than the good of the country in many politicians minds these days - a situation worsened in recent years since undelivered promises have become the norm and challenging outright lies has all but disappeared. Basically they can say almost anything and get away with it so increasingly they are making bold statements that they can't substantiate in order to grab power and having done so are almost immune to criticism and censure.
May is a good example.

Personally, I find this mind-boggling. 
Davis caught lying about the Government's failure to analyse what the impact of Brexit will be.

wanderlust wrote:Good points Glos however I would add a loss of integrity to the charge of ineptitude. I genuinely feel that having power is more important than the good of the country in many politicians minds these days - a situation worsened in recent years since undelivered promises have become the norm and challenging outright lies has all but disappeared. Basically they can say almost anything and get away with it so increasingly they are making bold statements that they can't substantiate in order to grab power and having done so are almost immune to criticism and censure.
May is a good example.

Well said, Wander. Ministers just pass things off as fake news. Vague soundbites add to the sense of disillusion amongst the public, too. Trump's shiftiness and lies should not be an example for governments to copy.

wanderlust wrote:Good points Glos however I would add a loss of integrity to the charge of ineptitude. I genuinely feel that having power is more important than the good of the country in many politicians minds these days - a situation worsened in recent years since undelivered promises have become the norm and challenging outright lies has all but disappeared. Basically they can say almost anything and get away with it so increasingly they are making bold statements that they can't substantiate in order to grab power and having done so are almost immune to criticism and censure.
May is a good example.

Absolutely agree Wander, apart possibly with the last sentence. It would seem that the PM has finally started to do what was expected of her, and I think in this particular case, it was more than just keeping her power, (which we all know will be gone by the next election).

My facebook page has erupted with fury due to, as my right wing facebook friends put it, a capitulation and they want May's head on a pole 

Norpig wrote:My facebook page has erupted with fury due to, as my right wing facebook friends put it, a capitulation and they want May's head on a pole 

There will be plenty of Poles to choose from seeing as she's agreed they can all stay.

The reaction is not surprising other than I'm amazed they weren't kicking off much earlier.
The deal struck today includes a reciprocal arrangement whereby EU citizens living and/or working in the UK (and UK citizens in the EU) will have their rights to live, work and study protected.

If that isn't bad enough for the anti-immigration lobby, the deal includes reunification rights so that their relatives who don't live in the UK can join them in the future.

One of the key planks of Brexit (many would argue the main plank of Brexit!) has just been used to whack Leave voters in the chops.

Another plank - the "divorce bill" - has also been agreed at an eye-watering £35 to £40 billion. More here.

And May has made these concessions without any discussion of a trade deal.

With all the cards played, and no assessment of the impact on UK industry undertaken Brexit is only going in one direction - dragging the country down the pan with it.

But at least we get our sovereignty and whats left of the business infrastructure back eh 

The fools i am always reading on FB claim we shouldn't pay a penny to leave, i do wonder where they left their brains sometimes and i am amazed i used to associate with many of them.

Norpig wrote:My facebook page has erupted with fury due to, as my right wing facebook friends put it, a capitulation and they want May's head on a pole 

Norpig wrote:But at least we get our sovereignty and whats left of the business infrastructure back eh 

The fools i am always reading on FB claim we shouldn't pay a penny to leave, i do wonder where they left their brains sometimes and i am amazed i used to associate with many of them.

I'm curious. What justification do they give for not paying our bill?
We ordered the stuff, so surely we have to pay for it?

Various reasons Lusty but the main one seems to be that we bailed out the rest of Europe in WW2 and then let Germany off billions of pounds of debts while we still had to pay off billions we borrowed over 60 years to America and Canada. 

Norpig wrote:Various reasons Lusty but the main one seems to be that we bailed out the rest of Europe in WW2 and then let Germany off billions of pounds of debts while we still had to pay off billions we borrowed over 60 years to America and Canada. 

Ah. The Bill Cash/Daily Express reference to the 1953 agreement.
They are aware that it took Britain 61 years to pay off the £21 billion we borrowed from the USA and that we currently have a national debt of £1700 billion that will never be paid off aren't they?

Must admit I haven't read the agreement as of yet, but it seems from the summaries that we've accepted a dose of realism in regards to how much influence we have over the rest of the EU. Just got to suck up the fact we are the junior partner in this relationship and we had to bow to their demands.

A hypothetical question for Brexiteers:

Now it's becoming more obvious that Brexit under the terms it was sold is unlikely to be delivered, would you still want to go ahead? Or return to the previous situation.

Carry on and see where it leads. I doubt anyone would be so narrow of thought that there wouldn't be variances and hurdles as time progressed. Happy to see the NI border situation resolved as I didn't even consider that when voting. Also there had to be some financial forfeiture due to commitments. I think Barnier is continually ratcheting up things. Surprised Frau Mekel is so quiet but then she has her own problems. Overall I am satisfied with progress and happy with things right now.

I agree. Its amazing the number of issues that could, and have, changed, gone wrong, or whatever, but I'm content with where we are at this time.

Didn’t know you voted out Bollotom, fair response for sure I’m glad a ‘softer’ Brexit is being pursued given the governments rhetoric earlier in the year.