Brexit negotiations

Just in case anyone is fooled by the Tory spin on the negotiations:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42315280

and inflation is up again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42320052

Its amazing, in this continuing time of turmoil, that so many seem to think that we could, and should, be able to carry on as though nothing has changed. its not only changed, but its doing so at an accelerated rate, being driven by many different factors, a lot of them unpredictable.
One very big factor is that that we have virtually no influence, at this time, on what the EU demands of us. However, we do know the EU like to revel in their superiority, but I think will have to reconsider when, today, the PM said that without a deal, the £40bn will be taken of the table. It must be quite a shock to realise that they will have to ask some of their own members to actually pay something into the kitty.

gloswhite wrote:Its amazing, in this continuing time of turmoil, that so many seem to think that we could, and should, be able to carry on as though nothing has changed. its not only changed, but its doing so at an accelerated rate, being driven by many different factors, a lot of them unpredictable.
One very big factor is that that we have virtually no influence, at this time, on what the EU demands of us. However, we do know the EU like to revel in their superiority, but I think will have to reconsider when, today, the PM said that without a deal, the £40bn will be taken of the table. It must be quite a shock to realise that they will have to ask some of their own members to actually pay something into the kitty.

I'm not convinced about this "everyone hates us" and "the EU is trying to put one over on us" narrative being touted by the same newspapers and media outlets that promoted Brexit in the first place. 
They just can't to seem to face up to the fact that we never had a strong bargaining position in the first place and they lied to the British public about it in order to sell papers.
Or more likely are trying to shovel the blame for the Brexit fiasco on to the EU rather than accept responsibility for the mess they were largely responsible for getting us into.

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:Its amazing, in this continuing time of turmoil, that so many seem to think that we could, and should, be able to carry on as though nothing has changed. its not only changed, but its doing so at an accelerated rate, being driven by many different factors, a lot of them unpredictable.
One very big factor is that that we have virtually no influence, at this time, on what the EU demands of us. However, we do know the EU like to revel in their superiority, but I think will have to reconsider when, today, the PM said that without a deal, the £40bn will be taken of the table. It must be quite a shock to realise that they will have to ask some of their own members to actually pay something into the kitty.

I'm not convinced about this "everyone hates us" and "the EU is trying to put one over on us" narrative being touted by the same newspapers and media outlets that promoted Brexit in the first place. 
They just can't to seem to face up to the fact that we never had a strong bargaining position in the first place and they lied to the British public about it in order to sell papers.
Or more likely are trying to shovel the blame for the Brexit fiasco on to the EU rather than accept responsibility for the mess they were largely responsible for getting us into.

I think the media have often gone down rabbit holes, just to antagonise the public, and with everyone joining in, it can be quite chaotic.  In all honesty, I don't believe anyone, the media, UK parties, or the EU, have come through the fiasco that is the Brexit negotiations, with any real credit.

I am not sure what you expected to happen glos. The EU are negotiating from a position of strength and obviously don't want to make it easy for other countries to leave the EU. The media have covered the negotiations to the extent there have been negotiations. The Labour party under Corbyn has no clear policy on the EU. The government ... well OK that has gone even worse than expected. May's decision to do a massive u-turn and hold a snap election which destroyed the Tory majority certainly didn't help but the ineptitude of Davis, Boris and Fox is fairly breath taking.

XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. The forecasts of utopia and/or Armageddon haven't materialised for anyone, (yet).
As I've stated before, I knew the EU would try to make an example of us, which they have, but get the feeling that they've excelled even their own expectations, and as a result may have harmed both sides, going forward. Even if the rabbit was pulled from the hat, the negotiations, which still have a long way to go, has left a bad taste for many people, and possibly done lasting harm.
As for Davis, Boris, and Fox, I would add Gove, and agree that they haven't shown a great deal to get excited about just yet, but I'm ever hopeful. Labour are just sitting on the fence, with no apparent policy evident. (all the easier to attack the government if/should/when it all goes wrong).
Tonight's vote on the Withdrawal bill could well throw another giant spanner in the works, but it seems the norm now, three steps forward, and two backwards. I really don't know why we do this, and give the EU even more opportunity to put pressure on us.

gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

Sounds like you have been watching Invasion! with Sam Willis.

May loses key Brexit vote.

boltonbonce wrote:May loses key Brexit vote.

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

Wander, its not all about the money !!!
Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body.

xmiles wrote:

boltonbonce wrote:May loses key Brexit vote.

Very mature.

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

boltonbonce wrote:May loses key Brexit vote.

Very mature.

Well I think it's funny when May isn't trusted to tell the truth by members of her own party.

xmiles wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

Sounds like you have been watching Invasion! with Sam Willis.

I am undoubtedly a beaker person.

gloswhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

Wander, its not all about the money !!!
Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body.

And in that spirit, our elected body has decided to take back control from May who was/is attempting to railroad through legislation which circumvents our democratic process - and not just Brexit legislation.

However, I would argue that as one quarter of the largest UK businesses are foreign owned the "taking back control" argument is utter nonsense. And ironically the UK Withdrawal Bill is simply writing EU legislation into British Law so what changes?

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

Wander, its not all about the money !!!
Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body.

And in that spirit, our elected body has decided to take back control from May who was/is attempting to railroad through legislation which circumvents our democratic process - and not just Brexit legislation.

However, I would argue that as one quarter of the largest UK businesses are foreign owned the "taking back control" argument is utter nonsense. And ironically the UK Withdrawal Bill is simply writing EU legislation into British Law so what changes?

No disrespect, but this is bollocks, and yet again, based on finance and not all the major concerns.

I think you sum up well your bias against Brexit, when you use a minority statistic, as the main influence of your argument.  Lets put it another way, 75% of business is owned by British companies. I personally would like it to be much more, but surely, in this modern world, such diversity is good? Who knows, maybe the reason for the 25% is due to the influence of people forever looking only at the financial side, and pushing for profits, regardless of the costs or source of the funds. Then there are those who want to retain the status quo, (usually for their own ends), afraid of any attempts to rectify any situation.

Glos you state that "Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body" but can you give any examples of what you think this will mean in practice?

Personally I believe that we have had some very beneficial legislation from the EU and some very bad laws from the our own government. The taking back control line sold by the brexit campaign is pretty meaningless as individuals like us have virtually zero control. The people and organisations with real control will still be the very rich and powerful just the same. The only real difference is that the EU actually stood up to the multinationals and tax avoiders more effectively than our own government - at least in part because unlike the Tories they are not directly funded by these people.

Xmiles is right to query Glos’s accusation, if you can’t clarify this position please stop claiming it. It’s not true and it’s  not helpful.

gloswhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

Wander, its not all about the money !!!
Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body.

And in that spirit, our elected body has decided to take back control from May who was/is attempting to railroad through legislation which circumvents our democratic process - and not just Brexit legislation.

However, I would argue that as one quarter of the largest UK businesses are foreign owned the "taking back control" argument is utter nonsense. And ironically the UK Withdrawal Bill is simply writing EU legislation into British Law so what changes?

No disrespect, but this is bollocks, and yet again, based on finance and not all the major concerns.

I think you sum up well your bias against Brexit, when you use a minority statistic, as the main influence of your argument.  Lets put it another way, 75% of business is owned by British companies. I personally would like it to be much more, but surely, in this modern world, such diversity is good? Who knows, maybe the reason for the 25% is due to the influence of people forever looking only at the financial side, and pushing for profits, regardless of the costs or source of the funds. Then there are those who want to retain the status quo, (usually for their own ends), afraid of any attempts to rectify any situation.

Sorry Glos but it's just my opinion at the end of the day. I really think the whole fiasco is a disaster and I refer to the negative financial impact it will and already is starting to have purely because that is the biggest issue for our country. It will affect everything.