Brexit negotiations

Bollotom2014 wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:Sluffy I’m really not interested in your chase of Lust, more than happy to continue ignoring whatever it is, but I will of course keep posting my opinion on all topics I hold an interest in across the site - that much has never changed.

Bollotom, you’re quick to condemn others for voicing an opinion. But why not offer your own? The situation has changed markedly since Brexit I think we’re in a third stage - 1. May pursues hard Brexit 2. Loses majority, forced to give up 3. Under pressure again by hard Brexiteers to toughen stance - whether it will cause her downfall is now the question.

I think you'll find I have condemned no-one. I simply made a point that all this thread has done is gone around in circles. Obviously you are a dyed in the wood Labour and I am dyed in the wool Tory. A bit like one of us supporting BWFC and someone else supporting ManUre. I do think we should just crack on.

T.R.O.Y wrote:If you find threads boring, don’t read them. I’ve never understood when people moan, don’t read it if you think it’s going round in circles. Those of us who have an opinion on it clearly disagree.

gloswhite wrote:I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

xmiles wrote:You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land).

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land). To put it simply when two parties negotiate the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations, and who is stronger? Us or the other 27 countries in the EU?

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land).

You really are becoming a total knob. I used to like and respect your posts, but this subject has turned you into a know-it-all gobshite who thinks his opinion is always right.

T.R.O.Y wrote:The side who exerts their power to get the best deal wins. 

The situation with everyone walking away happy is a compromise, with both sides accepting a diminished return.

Sluffy wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:The side who exerts their power to get the best deal wins. 

The situation with everyone walking away happy is a compromise, with both sides accepting a diminished return.

Better a compromise than a pissed off participant of the end deal as ultimately the 'forced' negotiated settlement will not last - and both sides ultimately lose.

I guess the classic example being the punishing Treaty of Versailles imposed by the French victors of WWI ultimately on Germany which directly led to the collapse of the German economy, the rise of fascism and the start of WWII just twenty years later.

At the end of WWII the victors took a completely different strategy by building Germany's economy up by means of the Marshall Plan and turned it into Europe's power house even at the expense of the victors such as France and ourselves.

Europe gained far more - and ultimately we are all wealthier by allowing a defeated economic rival's economy to rise from the ashes rather than punish them and face a probable war again in a relative short time.

Win/win is always better than win/lose, which more often than not over time will move to a lose/lose position anyway.

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land). To put it simply when two parties negotiate the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations, and who is stronger? Us or the other 27 countries in the EU?

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land). To put it simply when two parties negotiate the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations, and who is stronger? Us or the other 27 countries in the EU?

Don't be a dipshit XM. Of course I understand whats going on, even an eejit can see that 27 against 1 aren't good odds, however, if some of those 27 are prepared to give way on some things, then who knows what may happen. Might doesn't always win, and there always has to be room for maneuver and possible changes of view. Your view of negotiations seem to be looking only at the short term solution. 
I have to admit that never in my life have I been called naive before. A new accolade, by XM, thanks mucker, seems were getting on better than ever 

gloswhite wrote:Agreed XM. Why people think the EU are nice people, and we would be safe within their confines is one thing, but lets be honest, we have seen nothing whatsoever from any of the EU negotiations to fill us with either optimism, or confidence. They have been intransigent, overly demanding, and people such as Guy Verhofstadt have personally insulted our Prime Minister, as well as members of her cabinet, along with the British public. Whatever our views, it is grossly disrespectful, and unacceptable, for a foreign diplomat to do this. So much for our European 'friends'. 
Whatever the outcome, we have seriously damaged our own reputation as a solid and forward looking country, managed by a (relatively), stable government.
We are one of the worlds largest economies, and we are being treated, publicly, in a disgraceful manner. Makes me, but obviously not a lot of the remainers, wonder how we will be treated if they get their wish for us to remain in the EU.