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Brexit negotiations

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81Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 11:45

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Natasha Whittam wrote:
xmiles wrote:The difference between us is that I see our prospects being much better within the EU (a view shared by most experts and most younger and better educated people)

You really are a knob.

Stating a simple fact offends you in some way so you resort to personal abuse? Very impressive.

82Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 12:01

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

xmiles wrote:Stating a simple fact offends you in some way so you resort to personal abuse? Very impressive.

No, the fact you think everyone who voted for Brexit is thick, and those who didn't are better educated.

83Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 13:52

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Natasha Whittam wrote:
xmiles wrote:Stating a simple fact offends you in some way so you resort to personal abuse? Very impressive.

No, the fact you think everyone who voted for Brexit is thick, and those who didn't are better educated.


You are obviously too stupid to understand the meaning of what I wrote. I said most younger and better educated people voted remain. I did not say all better educated people did nor did I say that everyone who voted for brexit is thick. To quote that right wing pro brexit source the Daily Telegraph "The higher the level of education, the higher the EU support" and here is the link: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjUs7HvjLvVAhWJLVAKHaUmC0wQFghJMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2016%2F06%2F24%2Feu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an%2F&usg=AFQjCNGYcICsEMkbgj9DdybGeYdztV-PpQ

84Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 14:08

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

85Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 14:16

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

Happy to oblige gloswhite after you have told me the benefits of leaving the EU.

However I don't understand why you want to exclude the potential financial consequences from this discussion since I think both sides would consider them significant.

86Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 16:26

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

In or out is irrelevant now so there's no point in raking up the issues as they stood at the time of the referendum, however it will be interesting to see how the negotiations pan out and what the Tories will do if they can't secure a deal at least as good as the one we currently enjoy - which they won't. Explaining that to the country should be amusing.
Another aspect worth keeping an eye on is the growth of the EU economies, with EU GDP's currently growing twice as fast as the UK although that was expected despite the nationalist nonsense in the media. What happens if we slip even further behind? The longer it goes on the more that the EU superpowers will be able to bully the negotiators so there are interesting times ahead.

87Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 16:40

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

Happy to oblige gloswhite after you have told me the benefits of leaving the EU.

However I don't understand why you want to exclude the potential financial consequences from this discussion since I think both sides would consider them significant.
Nice try XM Very Happy  You've highlighted my point that all your arguments are centered on money, and we both know that there is far more to it than that, at least some of us do.

88Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 18:58

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

Happy to oblige gloswhite after you have told me the benefits of leaving the EU.

However I don't understand why you want to exclude the potential financial consequences from this discussion since I think both sides would consider them significant.
Nice try XM Very Happy  You've highlighted my point that all your arguments are centered on money, and we both know that there is far more to it than that, at least some of us do.

You seem to have conceded the point that we are going to be worse off economically and financially. So what exactly is it you think we are going to get by leaving the EU?

89Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 22:21

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

I don't concede anything, but will acknowledge that we will go through a rough time financially, whether its in the short term or otherwise, only time will tell. 
We will take back management of our own judiciary, manage our own immigration policies, (no, I'm not a racist), make alliances with others over defence and intelligence, trade with whoever we want to, and more importantly, we won't need the permission  of 27 countries, (many of whom contribute absolutely nothing to the union), when making important decisions affecting the UK. 
You don't seem to understand that by going along with the EU, especially now, we will forever be the whippping boys of Europe, wanted for our money, and ignored for our political views and wants. It could well be viewed as us selling our sovereignty for a slightly more comfortable ride.

90Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 23:03

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Here are 10 benefits of EU membership that we are now giving up:
freedom of UK citizens to live, work and retire anywhere in EU;
access to the Single Market with no tariff barriers or customs procedures;
the EU Working Time Directive which introduced paid holidays for 2 million British employees who did not receive any paid holiday at all and capped the working week at 48 hours;
unified approach to safety regulations regarding drugs, medicine and food labelling;
better rights for workers;
stronger challenge to tax avoiding multi-nationals;
massive subsidies to farming and various poorer regions;
the Good Friday agreement in Ireland;
lots of jobs as various firms migrate their offices/headquarters to the EU.

It is a xenophobic fantasy to describe us as the "whipping boys of Europe". Do you honestly believe that?

We can trade with whoever we want now but we will be in a weaker position to negotiate after we leave. Trump believes in putting America first and why would the EU give us better trading terms than we currently have?

91Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Thu Aug 03 2017, 23:09

JAH

JAH
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly

gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

EASY TRAVEL
LIVING ABROAD
EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION
PAID LEAVE
FOREIGN STUDY
CHEAP FLIGHTS
CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS
CONSUMER PROTECTION
FOOD LABELLING
CLEAN RIVERS AND CLEAN AIR

92Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Fri Aug 04 2017, 11:28

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Perhaps the biggest advantage of being a member of a regional trading bloc apart from the tariff - free trade is perhaps the stability it provided our economy which propped up the value of the pound - because that directly impacts the three things that people are entirely dependent on - wages, investment in services and the cost of living.
Confidence in the economy is everything and it's clear that the referendum vote totally undermined everything we had achieved given the substantial devaluation of the pound and the rise of foreign investors snapping up cheap British stocks as reported in FTSE trading since.
Because it's about confidence, the markets don't have to wait until we actually leave the EU - they are responding to the decision now.
Whichever way you stack it up, we have voted for a poorer standard of living because regardless of what may happen in the negotiations - and they aren't looking at all promising - if the world doesn't believe it was a good decision, we get hammered and we'll all be poorer for it, especially when on top of all that we face an additional bill of £billions to set up and run the systems of governance and legislation we were previously getting from the EU.
IMO our biggest loss in leaving the EU is international confidence in Britain - and nobody other than British Brexiteers think leaving the EU is a sensible idea.

93Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Fri Aug 04 2017, 11:34

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Looking on the bright side post brexit we will be eating chlorine washed chicken and meat full of antibiotics, antihistamines and growth hormones banned in the EU because Uncle Sam wouldn't have it any other way.

94Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Sat Aug 05 2017, 19:22

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

JAH wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

EASY TRAVEL
LIVING ABROAD
EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION
PAID LEAVE
FOREIGN STUDY
CHEAP FLIGHTS
CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS
CONSUMER PROTECTION
FOOD LABELLING
CLEAN RIVERS AND CLEAN AIR
Did nobody ever tell you its rude to shout ? 
What makes you think all the above will finish? (your list looks a bit like me,me,me) There are enough people in this country to ensure these things still go through. We won't become a third world country overnight, and if you had a bit of common sense, you would realise that.

95Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Sat Aug 05 2017, 19:29

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

gloswhite wrote:
JAH wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

EASY TRAVEL
LIVING ABROAD
EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION
PAID LEAVE
FOREIGN STUDY
CHEAP FLIGHTS
CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS
CONSUMER PROTECTION
FOOD LABELLING
CLEAN RIVERS AND CLEAN AIR
Did nobody ever tell you its rude to shout ? 
What makes you think all the above will finish? (your list looks a bit like me,me,me) There are enough people in this country to ensure these things still go through. We won't become a third world country overnight, and if you had a bit of common sense, you would realise that.
:clap:

96Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Sat Aug 05 2017, 19:37

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

xmiles wrote:Here are 10 benefits of EU membership that we are now giving up:
freedom of UK citizens to live, work and retire anywhere in EU;
access to the Single Market with no tariff barriers or customs procedures;
the EU Working Time Directive which introduced paid holidays for 2 million British employees who did not receive any paid holiday at all and capped the working week at 48 hours;
unified approach to safety regulations regarding drugs, medicine and food labelling;
better rights for workers;
stronger challenge to tax avoiding multi-nationals;
massive subsidies to farming and various poorer regions;
the Good Friday agreement in Ireland;
lots of jobs as various firms migrate their offices/headquarters to the EU.

It is a xenophobic fantasy to describe us as the "whipping boys of Europe". Do you honestly believe that?

We can trade with whoever we want now but we will be in a weaker position to negotiate after we leave. Trump believes in putting America first and why would the EU give us better trading terms than we currently have?

Agreed on all your list, but what makes you think it will all end overnight ?
'Xenophobic' ? really ? Is that instead of calling me racist ? Hhhmmm. 
If you can give me an example of when we managed to push changes through the EU, that mainly benefited the UK, and wasn't either vetoed, or voted down, let me know. Our only worth to the EU, is our money, as politically, we are ignored. The current situation has now given other countries the opportunity to openly insult us. 
I'm fast losing faith with our negotiating team, piss poor performances that are now picked up, and commented on by our so-called 'friends'. Now that we have shown a shambolic front, and we somehow remained in the EU, how would we be seen, and treated ? I think we've shot our bolt with the EU, whatever happens, and trying to cling on to their coat-tails will reduce our standing, and future dealings with all of them.

97Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Sat Aug 05 2017, 20:42

bwfc71

bwfc71
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:Here are 10 benefits of EU membership that we are now giving up:
freedom of UK citizens to live, work and retire anywhere in EU;
access to the Single Market with no tariff barriers or customs procedures;
the EU Working Time Directive which introduced paid holidays for 2 million British employees who did not receive any paid holiday at all and capped the working week at 48 hours;
unified approach to safety regulations regarding drugs, medicine and food labelling;
better rights for workers;
stronger challenge to tax avoiding multi-nationals;
massive subsidies to farming and various poorer regions;
the Good Friday agreement in Ireland;
lots of jobs as various firms migrate their offices/headquarters to the EU.

It is a xenophobic fantasy to describe us as the "whipping boys of Europe". Do you honestly believe that?

We can trade with whoever we want now but we will be in a weaker position to negotiate after we leave. Trump believes in putting America first and why would the EU give us better trading terms than we currently have?

Agreed on all your list, but what makes you think it will all end overnight ?
'Xenophobic' ? really ? Is that instead of calling me racist ? Hhhmmm. 
If you can give me an example of when we managed to push changes through the EU, that mainly benefited the UK, and wasn't either vetoed, or voted down, let me know. Our only worth to the EU, is our money, as politically, we are ignored. The current situation has now given other countries the opportunity to openly insult us. 
I'm fast losing faith with our negotiating team, piss poor performances that are now picked up, and commented on by our so-called 'friends'. Now that we have shown a shambolic front, and we somehow remained in the EU, how would we be seen, and treated ? I think we've shot our bolt with the EU, whatever happens, and trying to cling on to their coat-tails will reduce our standing, and future dealings with all of them.

Politically we are not ignored but like any true democracy the majority vote wins.   It seems that just because little old UK does not get its way then the EU is non-democratic!

What EU officials re now seeing is that the leaders of the UK are on a self-destruct mission to leave the EU and the EU officials are just setting out their goals, whilst the UK are not showing their hand - mainly because there is no hand to show.  Even from our point of view we do seem to be like children not getting their own way - and we are now crying because f it thus trying to make the EU officials give in to our blackmail ideologies of leaving the EU and the deal that the UK wants (again it is down the other 27 other countries whether the deal is agreed or not as it only takes 1 country to say to the deal  and then UK is scuppered without actually walking away - true democracy in action.

Why should the UK be listened to now, UK has given formal notice that we are leaving and as such the EU needs to concentrate on other matters on seeking deals for themselves - rather than giving 100% attention to UK - the irritant of Europe.   Why else would the EU countries be growing far quicker than the UK now, and the UK influence across Europe (including non-EU/EFTA countries) as well in the G8/G20 countries is weakening fast.

If we walk away from the EU with no deal, or if we continue to be the petulant child in any relationship with the EU then no other serious country will want to trade with us in the fear that we walk away from it or become a nuisance in the del - hence we will end up in a situation that the only deals we will get will not be in our favour and it will worsen and weaken, even further, our wold influence and not help the UK financially and push us deeper into debt into a situation that Greece never reached.

Lets not forget that when we joined the EU/EEC we were on our knees and both IMF and World Bank had  stopped lending to us, our Credit Reference was one of the worst in the world and global powers had warned about lending to the UK in case we defaulted or even worse became a bankrupt nation.   This Brexit is now taking us down that road again!

98Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Sat Aug 05 2017, 20:55

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

I went to Norway a couple of years ago.

I didn't see people fighting in the streets over the last Haribo, I didn't see people bringing their cash in wheelbarrows to buy one loaf of bread, and I didn't see a country in ruin.

Guess what, they're a European country who aren't in the EU.

99Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Sat Aug 05 2017, 22:37

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Natasha Whittam wrote:I went to Norway a couple of years ago.

I didn't see people fighting in the streets over the last Haribo, I didn't see people bringing their cash in wheelbarrows to buy one loaf of bread, and I didn't see a country in ruin.

Guess what, they're a European country who aren't in the EU.

Norway is indeed a very nice country to live in. However Norway follows most single-market rules drawn up in Brussels and must accept the free movement of EU workers. It also has no say in drawing up these rules and rubber-stamps legislation handed down from the EU. When the EU created the passport-free Schengen zone, for example, Norway had to join to avoid a 1,000-mile hard border with Sweden. It has signed up to agencies that foster co-operation in anti-terrorism, research and defence. Pressed by Brussels, it pays whopping grants to support research projects and civil society in eastern Europe; its per-head payments to the EU approach those of Britain. It joins EU-starred military missions abroad and accepts refugees according to formulae crunched in Brussels.

There is more in this article published by The Economist: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiDjrqXhcHVAhVNblAKHQlcCLEQFggyMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.economist.com%2Fnews%2Feurope%2F21716039-sooner-or-later-britain-will-face-trade-offs-between-sovereignty-and-access-norways-deal&usg=AFQjCNGhF_PI7z3XDrE0NzKqvAxjchXwwA

100Brexit negotiations - Page 5 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations Sat Aug 05 2017, 23:17

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Natasha Whittam wrote:I went to Norway a couple of years ago.

I didn't see people fighting in the streets over the last Haribo, I didn't see people bringing their cash in wheelbarrows to buy one loaf of bread, and I didn't see a country in ruin.

Guess what, they're a European country who aren't in the EU.
This statement sums up the naivety that allowed the media to push the leave agenda through. Norway and the other Scandinavian states have a massively lower cost base than the UK so it's a more profitable nation than the UK and therefore will never run out of Haribo's whilst they are in demand.

You have to look at income and GDP and divide it by population to get even the most basic "profitability" figure and whilst we have a massive GDP compared to most countries we also have a massive aging population with high unemployment and a skills shortage to pay for.

Norway is the 13th richest country per capita in the world. The UK is 38th. Ireland and the Falkland Islands are richer per capita than the UK.

Which is why our stupidly naive negotiators will get laughed off the park.

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