Brexit negotiations

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:I think a lot of people who now realize it was a mistake are just saying Brexit means Brexit

Where are you getting that info from? Because the people I know that voted to leave aren't changing their minds, they're getting pissed off with how the government is handling it granted, but no one is changing their mind.

14 consecutive independent opinion polls found that if people had a second chance to vote again the result would be remain. I can’t remember the name of the polling company, you can find it, it’s a fact not not just hearsay. Now I don’t know who you know exactly so mybe they might have changed the result of those 14 opinion polls. But I doubt it.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:I don’t care what you think

If you don't care what I think why keep replying to my posts?

It’s banter isn’t it ? Actually, I do care what you think, but I think you are completely wrong. Unless Brexit directly affects you it’s not possible for you to give a reasoned answer to what I telling you. Like I said, you tell me something that Brexit will make better for you. The UK already had better deals than most of the other 27 states. Didn’t have to have the Euro. Didn’t have to have Schengen, could send EU Citizens back to their originating country if they hadn’t found a job within 3 months. Didn’t have to pay child benefit for children not in the UK (even though the right wing gutter press told you all something different), Didn’t have to pay any benefits at all to people for I think six months. The list is endless. The Brexit vote was won on complete lies and innuendo. Simple as that. Oh, and I know many, many people who never got a job, saying there weren’t any jobs years before EU Nationals were allowed in to the UK. The jobs were there, just not the jobs they wanted to do. Mind you, and this is not being disrespectful, if people didn’t want to learn at school and better themselves, they can hardly expect to get trained as brain surgeons or rocket scientists can they. Talking of which, I worked with some Iraqi scientists at Munich Airport. They cleaned our aircraft and the Hangar. Their qualifications counted for nothing in Germany. Don’t blame the EU for the UK problems because the UK doesn’t have to accept EU workers if it doesn’t want to. Once again people believed a lot of bullshit without bothering to check their facts first. The UK is fucked not because of the EU. It is fucked because successive Governments sold everything off that was worth something and shut down everything that wasn’t worth something.

Dunkels King wrote:Like I said, you tell me something that Brexit will make better for you.

You can get stuffed, it's clear I'm not allowed to post on here anymore.

I've started a new site, it's working title is "Bolton Nuts: For Those That Live Outside of Bolton, but not Germany".

Catchy isn't it.

Not too keen on this Dominic Raab bloke. He looks a lot like my arch enemy,Dr Dmitri.

Jeremy Hunt the new Foreign Minister.

Norpig will be cracking one off when he hears that.

replacing one lying bastard with another lying bastard!!!!! class !!!!

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:Like I said, you tell me something that Brexit will make better for you.

You can get stuffed, it's clear I'm not allowed to post on here anymore.

I've started a new site, it's working title is "Bolton Nuts: For Those That Live Outside of Bolton, but not Germany".

Catchy isn't it.

That’s quite catchy. I might move back to the UK to join up   Still waiting for information about how Brexit will benefit you though. I am guessing your answer would have to be you have no idea ? That’s the problem. Nobody has any idea of a single benefit, but plenty of facts about negative impact.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:Like I said, you tell me something that Brexit will make better for you.

You can get stuffed, it's clear I'm not allowed to post on here anymore.

I've started a new site, it's working title is "Bolton Nuts: For Those That Live Outside of Bolton, but not Germany".

Catchy isn't it.

Nat, dear friend, you are allowed to post on here. It’s just that, well, these people who chose to leave Bolton for a better life in Preston are putting a strain on the sites resources. But you have nothing to worry about. You will always be made to feel welcome. We are going to have what is called a referendum. In normal countries this is basically an opinion poll to gather current information relating to any given topic or product. Like I say, it’s nothing for you, a Preston lass (now) to worry about.

Time moves on the referendum showed that 52% of the Bolton Nuts members (who lived in Bolton and could be arsed to vote) wanted a closed shop. So unfortunately they lied to you. Get off our site you smelly Prestonite said many of our former friends on here. Stick that Sauerkraut where the sun doesn’t shine they said to me (not realizing sauerkraut is cabbage in vinegar, the poor idiots thought it was some kind of sausage). The problem is, the site relies on the skills and wit(am) of many members from outside Bolton. It would be disastrous to ban “outsiders”. We won’t be able to trade “Banter” with people like Copper Dragon now said one member, having second thoughts. Listen, said Boris Farage (Bolton born and fed), don’t worry about insignificant things like that. The main thing is we got rid of Nat, Dunkels, Glos and Copper. We can make new friends to trade banter with. There is a fantastic football team in Tuvalu. They get crowds upward of 23 people for home games. We can banter with them, when they get internet that is because they still live in the Stone Age at the moment and at the moment they aren’t interested in our Banter anyway. They can get cheaper, better banter from Bulgaria.

wanderlust wrote:Jeremy Hunt the new Foreign Minister.

Norpig will be cracking one off when he hears that.

The man should be recognised for his contribution to rhyming slang.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44785797

Who cares? Obviously nobody else is going to resign and May will soldier on for the time being.

I think the Tories need a reality check.
Brexit 1 was based on the original promises and lies bandied about at the time of the referendum which didn't take any account of the other side in the negotiations so was obviously undeliverable.
After the EU had put them back in their box they came up with Brexit 2 which was a modification of Brexit 1 - still not achievable, but enough to keep Leave voters on side and with enough wriggle room to pretend it's all going to plan. But ultimately, it wasn't ever on the cards.
Brexit 3 is May's compromise based on what is possibly negotiable, but doesn't address key issues such as the NI border. Even so it's miles away from what the Leave voters voted for so if May manages to push it through, nobody will be happy.

The elephant in the room is that they can't deliver an end to free movement etc without further ruining the economy but despite being a new conversation that the Government needs to have with the people of Britain, they continue to avoid it as they know it's a vote loser.

For now they seem to be pretending that something similar to what was promised could be achieved even though they know it's not and the least damaging Brexit option - the Norway model (which was bandied about by the leave campaign during the referendum until they realised it wouldn't satisfy the xenophobes) is starting to get traction again.

The only possible outcome is that neither Remainers nor Leavers will be satisfied.

The reality of Brexit is finally starting to bite and as we count down to BIDET or whatever they call the day we are due to leave, there will be increasing pressure on the Tories to come clean as it were.

Now former Tory Cabinet minister Justine Greening has joined in the calls for a scecond Brexit referendum - which she won't get and will be derided by the diehard Leavers with the usual mantras, however she makes a couple of good points e.g.

Even if May achieves everything she has outlined in her new set of soft Brexit objectives as a starting point for the negotiations (highly unlikely) the half of the country that voted remain or were denied a vote will be dragged into a situation where we are still governed by some European laws but will have lost the right to influence/change them.

Similarly, the half of the country that voted to Leave will not get the self-determination they say they voted for - and they sure as hell won't like that - so we have managed to get ourselves into a lose-lose situation at the end of two years of trying to work out what we actually want from Brexit.

For now, Leave voters are sticking with the mantra of "getting on with it" whilst trying to avoid the question of what "it" actually is, but as negotiations progress and May has to spin the deal to them it's difficult to see how they would accept any of it.

I am skeptical about a second referendum. When the first referendum took place, it was a simple Yes or No question that was supported by campaigns that have subsequently been proven to have been based on falsehoods and (according to some observers) the vested interest of international corporations who would be unaffected, but gradually the British public have started to realise the potential ramifications - and the fact that the EU and other international partners won't be giving us everything we want in what continues to look like a messy divorce. The public are also realising that Yes/No doesn't cut it when there are multiple issues in a complex scenario so a second single question Yes/No referendum wouldn't be able to capture the true feelings of the British people.

That said, we're in a mess of our own making and at some point we have to stop digging ourselves into a deeper and deeper hole and have an honest and open discussion about it because the vultures are circling and are already taking advantage of our new weakness. We need to regroup behind a strong, unified message that has a genuine mandate.

Tick tock.

A second referendum does offer a way out of this mess but the brexiteers will never allow it. Their approach to democracy is exactly the same as Islamic fundamentalists who are allowed to campaign in democracies. Once they win that is the end of elections because thepeople have spoken and the will of the people must be respected.

Thanks Lusty- but what is that 'strong unified message'- and where do you get a 'genuine' mandate from and what is it?
That's what I think Teresa May has been searching for ,for the last  20 months or so.
If I were her I would simply say, I've done my best and its clearly not good enough ,so sod it, and walk away. Then Jezza and his wrecking balls can take over the negotiations.

I’m still waiting for Nat to tell me what Brexit will do for her that will be better than what she had before. Maybe I am on her ignore list now. The problem is, two years down the road, no one has any idea, other than the fact everyone will be worse off based on price increases of even basic commodities. The saddest thing is that Trump has now got involved, first saying to the Sun that there will be no trade deal with the UK, and then back tracking and saying we will have a great deal. Unfortunately, it will be only a great deal for the USA, otherwise he has gone against everything he told his own people, which is he will only sign deals that benefit the USA. I’m scratching my head to see what the UK could send to the USA that they don’t produce, or don’t import already. I’m also trying to work out how it will work out cheaper to export or import to/from the USA cheaper than from the EU. 

What an absolute mess. Meanwhile, here in Germany, my life goes in, still with no idea if I will be able to live and work here long term, or if I will be booted out of the Country if I lose my job. Oh for an EU Citizenship for those who don’t want to become Island Monkeys again.

If we do agree a trade deal with America it will only benefit America - unless you are looking forward to chlorine flavoured chicken and hormone stuffed beef.

xmiles wrote:A second referendum does offer a way out of this mess but the brexiteers will never allow it. Their approach to democracy is exactly the same as Islamic fundamentalists who are allowed to campaign in democracies. Once they win that is the end of elections because thepeople have spoken and the will of the people must be respected.

You can't have a referendum until you get the result you want.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:A second referendum does offer a way out of this mess but the brexiteers will never allow it. Their approach to democracy is exactly the same as Islamic fundamentalists who are allowed to campaign in democracies. Once they win that is the end of elections because thepeople have spoken and the will of the people must be respected.

You can't have a referendum until you get the result you want.

I assume you are paraphrasing the brexit line which was that they will keep moaning about the EU until they get the result they want.

Farage famously said that a 52/48 loss meant that a second referendum was necessary because "“In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.” Funny how that only works one way with brexiteers.

xmiles wrote:

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:A second referendum does offer a way out of this mess but the brexiteers will never allow it. Their approach to democracy is exactly the same as Islamic fundamentalists who are allowed to campaign in democracies. Once they win that is the end of elections because thepeople have spoken and the will of the people must be respected.

You can't have a referendum until you get the result you want.

I assume you are paraphrasing the brexit line which was that they will keep moaning about the EU until they get the result they want.

Farage famously said that a 52/48 loss meant that a second referendum was necessary because "“In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.” Funny how that only works one way with brexiteers.

Very true.
I noticed old lizard lips Farage was doing the TV rounds again yesterday. Things must be getting serious.