You are not connected. Please login or register

Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Brexit negotiations

Brexit negotiations

Go to page : Previous  1 ... 12 ... 20, 21, 22 ... 27 ... 34  Next

Go down  Message [Page 21 of 34]

601Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 09:11

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
A referendum on the deal would be a disaster. The last referendum was a simple yes/no decision but was obfuscated with lies, half truths, bigotry  and ignorance. How would Joe Public actually understand the nature of Mays deal with details of a customs union, with details of temporary backstops for the UK/republic border. 98% of the voters will simply not understand what the terms actually mean when they vote on  like tariffs,the CAP or fisheries policies or  opinions based on ignorance about who controls legislation. How many will understand what the Norway deal, or Norway plus, or the Canada deal or the Swiss deal, or WTO rules, or  EFTA rules actually mean for trade and the economy?
Goiving the voting public a vote on options  with transferable votes would be a nightmare as they won't have a clue what they are voting on. A large proportion  will go back to the same thing which they thought that they voted on last time- which option keeps the foreigners out. You might as well have a referendum on how to train race horses or how to do brain surgery.
If you want a referendum it has to be as straightforward as the last one in terms of a decision- do we stay or do we go

602Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 09:37

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@rammywhite wrote:
If you want a referendum it has to be as straightforward as the last one in terms of a decision- do we stay or do we go

I see no problem with that: a simple yes/no referendum with the question being do we leave the EU on May's terms or stay in the EU. Everyone apart from a few extremists recognises that a no deal exit would be a disaster.

603Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 09:51

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
This isn't the way to go about it. You are eliminating a major step in the process. The question should be,'Do we leave the EU on the PM's terms, or do we go out on WTO terms' 
The decision has already been made to leave. Anything else will be democratically unsafe, and if the politicians continue to promote their own agendas then they will have to face the anger of over 17 million voters. In the current climate, I genuinely believe that if we go back into the EU, then there will be substantial demonstrations, even violent actions, by many.
Myself, after nearly 60 years of voting every time I was asked, I wouldn't have the confidence that a legal, and lawful outcome would be guaranteed, therefore will have no intention of ever voting again.

604Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 09:53

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
That should have been 50 years  Smile

605Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 10:02

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@gloswhite wrote:This isn't the way to go about it. You are eliminating a major step in the process. The question should be,'Do we leave the EU on the PM's terms, or do we go out on WTO terms' 
The decision has already been made to leave. Anything else will be democratically unsafe, and if the politicians continue to promote their own agendas then they will have to face the anger of over 17 million voters. In the current climate, I genuinely believe that if we go back into the EU, then there will be substantial demonstrations, even violent actions, by many.
Myself, after nearly 60 years of voting every time I was asked, I wouldn't have the confidence that a legal, and lawful outcome would be guaranteed, therefore will have no intention of ever voting again.

We wouldn't be going back into the EU as we have never left.

How is giving people a vote when they know the terms on offer "democratically unsafe"?

However being told we can't have a vote because right wing thugs threaten violence is actually democratically unsafe.

606Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 10:03

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
But the point is much simpler. 95% of the population will NOT understand May's terms- what they mean, the implications for trade tariffs, jobs and the economy, the issues around Irish politics and the border. People simply are not educated enough to see what all this means , to be cognisant of the implications of her deal.
You would be asking people to take a momentous decision on something they don't understand  and in most cases don't care about.
I think the turnout would be pitiful and unrepresentative- even more grist for duplicitous politicians to twist.
If its referendum it has to be like last time when 37% of the voting population said leave.
Make it stay or leave!

607Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 10:07

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
@gloswhite wrote:This isn't the way to go about it. You are eliminating a major step in the process. The question should be,'Do we leave the EU on the PM's terms, or do we go out on WTO terms' 
The decision has already been made to leave. Anything else will be democratically unsafe, and if the politicians continue to promote their own agendas then they will have to face the anger of over 17 million voters. In the current climate, I genuinely believe that if we go back into the EU, then there will be substantial demonstrations, even violent actions, by many.
Myself, after nearly 60 years of voting every time I was asked, I wouldn't have the confidence that a legal, and lawful outcome would be guaranteed, therefore will have no intention of ever voting again.
Be honest Glos- how many of the 50 odd million voters out there understand the terms and implications of Mays deal compared with the implications of WTO terms? And who will explain it to them? Answer- f**king duplicitous politicians like Farage, Davis, Johnson,Thornbury  and Rees-Mogg. No-one will be the wiser. It would be an absolute can of worms.

608Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 10:25

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
All politicians are duplicitous. Including, shock horror, ones who backed remain!

609Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 10:27

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:All politicians are duplicitous. Including, shock horror, ones who backed remain!
Agreed- that's why you can't leave it to them to decipher and explain the implications of different trading models and structures

610Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 11:07

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:All politicians are duplicitous. Including, shock horror, ones who backed remain!

So what is the alternative?

611Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 11:12

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:All politicians are duplicitous. Including, shock horror, ones who backed remain!

So what is the alternative?

The least worst option- whatever it is. If I knew I would suggest something. I would personally go for a Norway plus deal but that's not on the table at the moment.
Immigration, free movement of people doesn't bother me at all, nor does the European court of Justice. Its tariff free trade that's crucial to the UKs economic health. Anything that gives us that is what we should be aiming for.

612Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 11:51

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
So Joe Public doesn't fully understand what they are voting for but they are not happy to let people who do make the decision? That's the legacy of the referendum right there.

613Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 11:54

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
Personally I would not trust Corbyn to negotiate his way out of a paper bag. He is even more stubborn than May but that is not the same thing as being a good negotiator.
Although being stubborn does help in certain situations. 
It's unfortunate that May wasn't as stubborn in the actual negotiations as she is in trying to railroad through her piss poor deal.

614Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 11:56

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:All politicians are duplicitous. Including, shock horror, ones who backed remain!

So what is the alternative?

I won't be voting. 

Sad because I love politics but this is the end for me.

615Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 12:04

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:All politicians are duplicitous. Including, shock horror, ones who backed remain!

So what is the alternative?

I won't be voting. 

Sad because I love politics but this is the end for me.
Excellent. Another one down....Smile

616Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 12:07

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

617Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 12:16

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff

Sad but there is always somebody willing to make money out of other people suffering.

People like Rees-Mogg, Jim Ratcliffe and Crispin Odey for example.

618Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 12:17

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
The Norway deal will leave us with less influence than we have now, but still subject to the majority of EU rules. The current compromise is the Common Market 2.0 idea, which will throw away even more influence, al for the sake of shorter term benefits.
I don't believe May could be stubborn to any great degree when negotiating anything, she was in a very weak position to start with, and being undermined by various factions in the UK, with every step she took, was always pointing to an inconclusive outcome.
Just a thought, but everyone is saying that a no deal scenario will be catastrophic for the UK. I have yet to hear in what way, and how much. Yet again, no specifics, but politicians prepared to put the UK's future at risk on what they personally want to do.
Dominic Grieve is on the TV, talking about a second referendum. I'm surprised that no sensible person has recommended that we keep the referendum result, and get rid of the bungling politicians.

619Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 14 2019, 12:33

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@gloswhite wrote:The Norway deal will leave us with less influence than we have now, but still subject to the majority of EU rules. The current compromise is the Common Market 2.0 idea, which will throw away even more influence, al for the sake of shorter term benefits.
I don't believe May could be stubborn to any great degree when negotiating anything, she was in a very weak position to start with, and being undermined by various factions in the UK, with every step she took, was always pointing to an inconclusive outcome.
Just a thought, but everyone is saying that a no deal scenario will be catastrophic for the UK. I have yet to hear in what way, and how much. Yet again, no specifics, but politicians prepared to put the UK's future at risk on what they personally want to do.
Dominic Grieve is on the TV, talking about a second referendum. I'm surprised that no sensible person has recommended that we keep the referendum result, and get rid of the bungling politicians.

It is pretty easy to find information about the likely consequencies of a no deal brexit; for example this from Sky News: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=31&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwir_-e2oe3fAhWNGRQKHTVkCy8QFjAeegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Ffeature%2Fwhat-would-life-in-a-no-deal-brexit-uk-look-like-11584899&usg=AOvVaw2jj3gBSp2pXhdLqVUE4U5m

I don't know what specifics you are looking for but the leave campaign just made them up- £350m for the NHS, 70m Turks moving to the UK, bendy bananas being banned, etc.

620Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 11:48

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

621Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 11:52

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
The point is XM, why are they not being presented to the public as was every other so-called catastrophic or calamitous set of figures. I suspect that people are jumping on the terminology bandwagon, without knowing the facts. A practice that has been going on throughout this whole procedure, by both sides. 
I quite believe we will hear less from Thornberry now that she won't be able to spout her favourite '6 tests' every time she is interviewed. (I don't know if she is capable of learning new phrases or ideas very quickly, so we may have a respite from her face-pulling and eye-rolling antics).

622Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 12:10

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Laura Kuenssberg on 8 possible outccomes of today's vote:


1) Let's start with the least likely outcome. A miracle could take place overnight and scores of MPs might suddenly find themselves swinging behind the prime minister's plan.
The vote goes through, she shouts hurray, and the process moves on smoothly.
We leave the EU as planned in less than three months, and Theresa May's place in history is secure (no laughing at the back).
2) The defeat is disastrous and a combination of pressure from some ministers and MPs forces the PM to reach across the aisle.
Depending on the scale of the defeat, and the reaction of Labour front and backbenchers, Westminster might be ushered into a different phase of bargaining across the benches.
One Labour MP told me today: "At some stage I will vote for the deal, but I will need something specific to show for it. We are about to enter an era of transactional politics."
Cross-party working may not be some kind of high-minded pursuit.
Brexit negotiations - Page 21 _105183070_f9c4e965-1cdd-4cd6-8421-d973dc28c9a6Image copyrightPA
3) The scale of the likely loss might prompt the kind of parliamentary takeover that's been much discussed in the last couple of days.
Arguably this might be one of the most long-lasting impacts.
Rewriting the parliamentary rulebook may inevitably be largely of interest to nerds like me, but the kind of suggestions these extraordinary times are prompting might reshape the relationship between the government and MPs for years to come - and that matters.
4) Given that the balance in Parliament is definitely for a softer Brexit with closer ties to the EU, (arguably) the defeat on Tuesday might lead to a less dramatic break with the EU than the deal on the table promises.
One member of the cabinet tonight told me: "The longer this goes on, the softer Brexit gets."
Before you scream, I know that is not a view that is shared universally. But it is sincerely held by plenty of people around the place who point rather frustratedly to the irony.
As another member of cabinet said: "The hardline Brexiteers will push us toward a softer Brexit by digging in their resistance."
5) Technically speaking, if you don't assume (and assumptions are dangerous) that Parliament can and would block no deal, the rejection of the plan would move us closer to leaving without a deal.
That's not just because Eurosceptics are showing very little sign of budging, but remember the process is on a clock.
Article 50 has to come to a conclusion by the end of March and, as the law currently stands, we are leaving with or without an agreement.
Some other ministers in the cabinet believe very firmly once the vote is lost the PM has not much choice other than to up no-deal prep again in the hope, not of going that way, but of trying for another EU concession.
One told me it is the "only logical conclusion" to keep going steadily and hope the EU will break - a continuation of the high-stakes poker game.
6) Jeremy Corbyn will either delight or disappoint his ranks by having the bottle to force a confidence vote, or delaying again, waiting for a magic moment.
But he seems unlikely to take the bold step many of his members want and to move to offering another referendum.
Brexit negotiations - Page 21 _105183989_bef10377-5c3f-4b36-95af-18afdeb95d53Image copyrightAFP/GETTY IMAGES
7) For those campaigning for another European referendum, too, the scale of the defeat, and Tuesday night's front bench responses to it, are vital.
The outcome of the vote will affect whether we leave the EU on time, and less likely, whether we could be given another say on whether we leave at all.
And when those truths eventually reveal themselves, they in turn could have an impact on the fabric of the UK itself.
What happens in Northern Ireland, or to the case for Scottish independence, are part of what is at stake in the long term.
Cool Lastly, after more than two years of endless discussions, as and when the vote goes down on this hard-fought compromise, Westminster's factions and rival camps might finally have to do more than talk amongst themselves, and actually bend or break.
The divisions are so intense in both the main political parties that it could also be the moment some of the divisions turn into real splits.
That really would be history happening in front of our eyes.

623Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 12:21

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Good points. I don't always like Kuenssberg's reporting, feeling that she is sometimes too biased in her approach. At the end of the day, some of the changes mooted could be the end of Parliament as we know it, especially when people such as Bercow is prepared to throw out time tested tradition in favour of his own personal views.

624Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 12:25

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
We won't leave. Don't know why this is still being discussed.

It's a quite naked stitch up.

625Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 12:33

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I’m buying a yellow vest in preparation.

626Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 12:35

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:We won't leave. Don't know why this is still being discussed.

It's a quite naked stitch up.
If it is, it has an ironic symmetry with the 2016 referendum, the biggest stitch up in memory.

The upside is that only a quarter of the population will be arsed about it.

627Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 15:39

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Shoppi10
@karlypants wrote:I’m buying a yellow vest in preparation.
I've ordered mine already.

I'm getting a gas mask too for when it turns nasty.

628Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 15:54

Dunkels King

Dunkels King
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@wanderlust wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:We won't leave. Don't know why this is still being discussed.

It's a quite naked stitch up.
If it is, it has an ironic symmetry with the 2016 referendum, the biggest stitch up in memory.

The upside is that only a quarter of the population will be arsed about it.

That may be so, but friends that I considered sane and upstanding citizens are already foaming at the mouth on Faceache and Twatter about burning down the Houses of Parliament and suchlike if we don't "just leave now".

629Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 16:01

Dunkels King

Dunkels King
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Did anyone else notice the irony of Theresa May's visit to the Pottery in Stoke where she made her big Brexit speech ? they got a 430,000 quid EU Grant in 2002. For me, that is part of the problem. A lot of areas that overwhelmingly supported Brexit had no idea that many grants for things like this, further education facilities, business start up and infrastructure regeneration are actually being funded by the EU. Whilst many will say that this could be funded directly by the UK, the reality is that our Government spend basically next to fuck all outside of the South East of England.

630Brexit negotiations - Page 21 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 15 2019, 16:41

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
The EU has no money. They simply take ours and decide how much of it to give us back.

We contribute more than we take.

Back to top  Message [Page 21 of 34]

Go to page : Previous  1 ... 12 ... 20, 21, 22 ... 27 ... 34  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum