Brexit negotiations

xmiles wrote:TROY why do you want brexit, albeit a less damaging one than May's?

We’ve done this twice already on this thread.

T.R.O.Y wrote:

xmiles wrote:TROY why do you want brexit, albeit a less damaging one than May's?

We’ve done this twice already on this thread.

So remind me.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Actually lusty Parliament CAN make that decision. It was announced ages ago that Article Fifty can be cancelled at any time provided we haven't already left the EU. However it would be political suicide for those MPs who represent "Leave" areas to vote in favour of remain now.

As to a referendum I suspect it's simply too late to organise one. Since the due exit date is 29th March and even the longest available extension only goes to May 22nd it doesn't seem feasible to hold a full referendum campaign.

While I personally believe Brexit will be a disaster for the country this tortuous twisting and turning in a desperate bid to find some kind of "deal" is far more damaging to the nation in the short term imo. Personally I believe our PM should simply bite the bullet and do what the voters told her to which is exit the EU now without all this faffing about.

Obviously they can technically do it but they won't for the reasons you mention. However the EU are doing everything to limit the options to the deal they have agreed (Tusk's comments and the short deadline for example) but if a referendum with those options was proposed to them, they'd find it difficult to justify not accepting a longer deadline. 

Not sure a lengthy referendum campaign is needed TBH. We've heard little but both sides of the argument for the last two years so at least this time the people would actually be informed about what they are voting for, which is why it seems a sensible option to me.

I understand what you mean xmiles but I think there's still a large group who want us out of the EU plus many who'd see a Parliamentary revocation of Article 50 as a 'betrayal of democracy'.

The actual referendum only asked if we should be a member of the EU, nothing else. No mention was made of the terms of our exit and of course no 'deal' was specified since at that time no one knew what if any deal would be negotiated. Unfortunately Mrs May has dragged this out for so long that there's now no time left to properly explain exactly what deal she struck and how it will affect us. One thing is certain, she's basically shot herself in the foot and is now effectively a hostage of the DUP but even with their support she doesn't look likely to be able to get anything through the commons. The entire process has been a mess and frankly I can't see a way out of it that will really do anyone any good in the long run.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I understand what you mean xmiles but I think there's still a large group who want us out of the EU plus many who'd see a Parliamentary revocation of Article 50 as a 'betrayal of democracy'.

The actual referendum only asked if we should be a member of the EU, nothing else. No mention was made of the terms of our exit and of course no 'deal' was specified since at that time no one knew what if any deal would be negotiated. Unfortunately Mrs May has dragged this out for so long that there's now no time left to properly explain exactly what deal she struck and how it will affect us. One thing is certain, she's basically shot herself in the foot and is now effectively a hostage of the DUP but even with their support she doesn't look likely to be able to get anything through the commons. The entire process has been a mess and frankly I can't see a way out of it that will really do anyone any good in the long run.

A simple no deal/remain referendum would seem to be possible.

The "betrayal of democracy" bullship is just something whipped up by the right wing press and hard core brexiteers. It is hardly a betrayal of democracy to give people a vote! The referendum was three years ago, it is not set in stone. A lot has changed since then and we now have proof that the leave campaign was not only dishonest but also corrupt.

xmiles wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I understand what you mean xmiles but I think there's still a large group who want us out of the EU plus many who'd see a Parliamentary revocation of Article 50 as a 'betrayal of democracy'.

The actual referendum only asked if we should be a member of the EU, nothing else. No mention was made of the terms of our exit and of course no 'deal' was specified since at that time no one knew what if any deal would be negotiated. Unfortunately Mrs May has dragged this out for so long that there's now no time left to properly explain exactly what deal she struck and how it will affect us. One thing is certain, she's basically shot herself in the foot and is now effectively a hostage of the DUP but even with their support she doesn't look likely to be able to get anything through the commons. The entire process has been a mess and frankly I can't see a way out of it that will really do anyone any good in the long run.

A simple no deal/remain referendum would seem to be possible.

The "betrayal of democracy" bullship is just something whipped up by the right wing press and hard core brexiteers. It is hardly a betrayal of democracy to give people a vote! The referendum was three years ago, it is not set in stone. A lot has changed since then and we now have proof that the leave campaign was not only dishonest but also corrupt.  

You campaigning already? 

xmiles wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I understand what you mean xmiles but I think there's still a large group who want us out of the EU plus many who'd see a Parliamentary revocation of Article 50 as a 'betrayal of democracy'.

The actual referendum only asked if we should be a member of the EU, nothing else. No mention was made of the terms of our exit and of course no 'deal' was specified since at that time no one knew what if any deal would be negotiated. Unfortunately Mrs May has dragged this out for so long that there's now no time left to properly explain exactly what deal she struck and how it will affect us. One thing is certain, she's basically shot herself in the foot and is now effectively a hostage of the DUP but even with their support she doesn't look likely to be able to get anything through the commons. The entire process has been a mess and frankly I can't see a way out of it that will really do anyone any good in the long run.

A simple no deal/remain referendum would seem to be possible.

The "betrayal of democracy" bullship is just something whipped up by the right wing press and hard core brexiteers. It is hardly a betrayal of democracy to give people a vote! The referendum was three years ago, it is not set in stone. A lot has changed since then and we now have proof that the leave campaign was not only dishonest but also corrupt.  

Don't misunderstand me mate. If a referendum on remain or no deal was held then fair enough. What I meant was Parliament unilaterally deciding to revoke Article 50 without first consulting the country. While I would love to see us remain I don't think the voters as a whole would stomach Parliament simply ignoring the original referendum result that way.

I'm sure we can blame May for almost anything at the moment, and many will. 
What I'm disappointed in is her inability to see, or accept once seen, that she's made a big cock-up, after which she sails merrily on. 
Her errors are there for all to see, right from her first appearance in the political hierarchy. At first I liked her determination to stick to her guns, and so deliver the democratic choice of the majority of voters. I didn't understand why she kept it all to herself, including managing the negotiations. She seems to have a knack of choosing piss poor advisors in the first place, but then going on and ignoring them. As a result, all the capable negotiators jumped ship, leaving us with yes men, and incompetents.

I would ask all of us who have expressed their views on here, what have any of our politicians actually achieved on our behalf? Also, regardless of which side of the argument 'wins' how much has it cost us, and I don't mean financially. We are now the laughing stock of the western world. (a recent TV poll showed that 90% of those asked believed we are suffering from 'national humiliation').
I still want Brexit, mainly for the coming generations, but we've managed to muddy the waters for them as well. All in all, its been a disaster, due to nobody but our politicians, regardless of party. Its time to get rid of the old, and bring in the new, at least they will have this debacle to learn from.

I don’t think I could vote for something I thought was seriously damaging to the country. And don’t expect our politicians to.

T.R.O.Y wrote:I don’t think I could vote for something I thought was seriously damaging to the country. And don’t expect our politicians to.

No, they are voting for their own interpretations of what is right or wrong, whilst playing politics. But never mind that, my point is that the way everything has been handled shows, to me, that they haven't done anything good for the country, short or long term, and they have all done exactly the opposite of what they purported to do. Not all the mistakes and bad behaviour can be put at the PM's door.

Meanwhile the "leave the EU without a deal' petition has nearly reached half a million.
Make of that what you will.

wanderlust wrote:Meanwhile the "leave the EU without a deal' petition has nearly reached half a million.
Make of that what you will.

That a lot of the same people who voted remain still want to remain?

Hardly a shock is it.

T.R.O.Y wrote:I don’t think I could vote for something I thought was seriously damaging to the country. And don’t expect our politicians to.

But you vote labour?

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

wanderlust wrote:Meanwhile the "leave the EU without a deal' petition has nearly reached half a million.
Make of that what you will.

That a lot of the same people who voted remain still want to remain?

Hardly a shock is it.

So by your logic, not many of the people who voted to leave still want to leave now that the facts are coming out?

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:I don’t think I could vote for something I thought was seriously damaging to the country. And don’t expect our politicians to.

But you vote labour?

Good gag.

Has there ever been a more damaging UK government than Cameron followed by May? An absolute disaster.

gloswhite wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:I don’t think I could vote for something I thought was seriously damaging to the country. And don’t expect our politicians to.

No, they are voting for their own interpretations of what is right or wrong, whilst playing politics. But never mind that, my point is that the way everything has been handled shows, to me, that they haven't done anything good for the country, short or long term, and they have all done exactly the opposite of what they purported to do. Not all the mistakes and bad behaviour can be put at the PM's door.

I don't understand your point glos.

"Voting for their own interpretations of what is right or wrong" is what MPs should do. MPs are representatives not delegates. Normally the party system stops them from voting for what they think is right or wrong but May's shambolic brexit negotiations and Corbyn's posturing have broken at least temporarily this system.

I am not sure what you expect MPs to do.

Agree with you on that X.

xmiles wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:

xmiles wrote:TROY why do you want brexit, albeit a less damaging one than May's?

We’ve done this twice already on this thread.

So remind me.

Ideal world we’d not be leaving at all. But I don’t see how a vote can just be ignored.

Having said that I’ve always maintained that if parliament can’t get a decision through it should naturally come back to the people. What’s on the ballot paper would have to be decided at the time.

T.R.O.Y wrote:

xmiles wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:

xmiles wrote:TROY why do you want brexit, albeit a less damaging one than May's?

We’ve done this twice already on this thread.

So remind me.

Ideal world we’d not be leaving at all. But I don’t see how a vote can just be ignored.

Having said that I’ve always maintained that if parliament can’t get a decision through it should naturally come back to the people. What’s on the ballot paper would have to be decided at the time.

Thank you.

We differ on whether holding another referendum is ignoring the vote or just reflecting changed circumstances.