General Election

A day of total despair. I'd like to think some important lessons have been learned but I don't hold out any great hopes. I get the distinct impression that the NEC has no intention of moving away from it's current hard line left wing policies. Corbyn was a truly embarrassingly awful leader and undoubtedly a major factor in the size of the thumping we took last night but no matter who the leader is no party will ever get voted into power in this country on an ultra left wing ticket. Just will never happen.

xmiles wrote:You make some good points lpp but one fundamental problem for Labour is Corbyn. He is the worst leader that Labour has ever had (with the possible exception of Foot). He has no leadership ability; he is a hypocrite; and he simply refuses to admit he is ever wrong.

I know the Tory press and media have never given him a chance but his ability to fuck up is astonishing. Just look at his total failure to deal with anti-semitism within the Labour party or even apologise for it.

It is a tragedy that we now have a serial liar with no morals or principles as prime minister and a large part of the blame for this rests with Corbyn for being so totally useless.

I totally agree Corbyn is a dreadful leader but one thing you can't really call him is a hypocrite. Basically he didn't know what to say about Brexit because his own instinct was for Remain but much of the party and of course the country were Leave voters. I think his main problem was he came into politics at a time when Militant were very strong and the unions still held real power in the country not just the Labour party. He was always on that fringe from his very first day as an MP. In fact you can see his early speeches and TV interviews on Youtube and in all of them he was espousing by and large the same policies he espoused in this campaign. The sad fact is while he's certainly a man of strong principle just as Foot was they're outdated principles that the British public simply don't share and haven't done for at least thirty and more likely fifty years.

But worse than that is his blinkered belief that somehow the clock can be dialled back to the days of Clement Attlee and Harold Wilson. The truth is the British people, society and culture as a whole have changed and the economy has changed even more in that time. We're not a manufacturing nation any more and the days of the coal mines, ship yards and steel foundries are long gone but he and some idiots in the leadership think they aren't.

Sadly the extreme right has taken full advantage of Labour's myopia and we're now on course for both economic and social catastrophe in my opinion but the blame for that lies at least as much with the NEC and Corbyn as it does with the Tories, UKIP and Brexit party. I hope and pray we get a moderate in as our new leader but given how the election itself is now run I'm not at all confident that will happen.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

xmiles wrote:You make some good points lpp but one fundamental problem for Labour is Corbyn. He is the worst leader that Labour has ever had (with the possible exception of Foot). He has no leadership ability; he is a hypocrite; and he simply refuses to admit he is ever wrong.

I know the Tory press and media have never given him a chance but his ability to fuck up is astonishing. Just look at his total failure to deal with anti-semitism within the Labour party or even apologise for it.

It is a tragedy that we now have a serial liar with no morals or principles as prime minister and a large part of the blame for this rests with Corbyn for being so totally useless.

I totally agree Corbyn is a dreadful leader but one thing you can't really call him is a hypocrite. Basically he didn't know what to say about Brexit because his own instinct was for Remain but much of the party and of course the country were Leave voters. I think his main problem was he came into politics at a time when Militant were very strong and the unions still held real power in the country not just the Labour party. He was always on that fringe from his very first day as an MP. In fact you can see his early speeches and TV interviews on Youtube and in all of them he was espousing by and large the same policies he espoused in this campaign. The sad fact is while he's certainly a man of strong principle just as Foot was they're outdated principles that the British public simply don't share and haven't done for at least thirty and more likely fifty years.

But worse than that is his blinkered belief that somehow the clock can be dialled back to the days of Clement Attlee and Harold Wilson. The truth is the British people, society and culture as a whole have changed and the economy has changed even more in that time. We're not a manufacturing nation any more and the days of the coal mines, ship yards and steel foundries are long gone but he and some idiots in the leadership think they aren't.

Sadly the extreme right has taken full advantage of Labour's myopia and we're now on course for both economic and social catastrophe in my opinion but the blame for that lies at least as much with the NEC and Corbyn as it does with the Tories, UKIP and Brexit party. I hope and pray we get a moderate in as our new leader but given how the election itself is now run I'm not at all confident that will happen.

I think Corbyn is a hypocrite over brexit. Corbyn was never a remainer. He has consistently opposed EU membership and he did nothing to support the Remain campaign. In fact he actively sabotaged it by refusing to cooperate with the campaign. The one time he gave a speech about it he obviously had no enthusiasm for it and looked like a hostage reading a message out aloud. He has never wanted a second referendum and again refused to work with other parties on this. I actually doubt whether he even voted remain.

Another example of him being a hypocrite is his failure to deal with or even apologise for the anti-semitism in the Labour party. I don't believe he personally is anti-semitic but to pretend that he has dealt with it when he so clearly has not is either dishonesty or hypocrisy.

Some really good posts on here in the last few hours. It's hard to come to terms with the fact that we are now living in a right-wing country, with the ERG poised to revitalise after their enforced hiatus.

One thing that strikes me as significant is how little the parties made of the recent groundswell of concern about the planet and the environment. It became the Brexit Election (or the anti-Corbyn Election, as the right wing press chose to make it). Green issues only really featured in Brighton Pavilion....and just look at what happened there in stark contrast to the rest of the country!


The Green Party's Caroline Lucas has been re-elected to her Brighton Pavilion seat with a greater majority.
The former party leader, who is its sole MP, defeated her closest Labour rival by almost 20,000 votes, increasing her majority by nearly 5%.
She gained 33,151 votes compared with 13,211 to Labour's candidate Adam Imanpour.
Ms Lucas said she was "incredibly proud" of the result but also "deeply angry" at a "broken" political system.
She said: "I feel incredibly proud that my majority has increased because it demonstrates that Brighton Pavilion continues to believe in compassion, justice and a bigger future."


Did the parties miss a trick by not taking advantage of the way Attenborough and Thornburg brought this issue into the consciousness of the general public and especially that of young people with massive voting potential? 


The GE should have been about much more than Corbyn versus Johnson.

A few fast food outlets have banned straws. The planet is saved!
Until the climate crisis is confronted head on, we'll continue to sleepwalk into oblivion.

boltonbonce wrote:A few fast food outlets have banned straws. The planet is saved!
Until the climate crisis is confronted head on, we'll continue to sleepwalk into oblivion.

...and there'll come a time when there won't be a planet on which to promulgate conventional politican rhetoric, no matter whether left or right wing, so all the hot air, hatred and division will count for absolutely nothing!

Crikey! Grown up analysis on nuts - whatever next?

I cant see Labour getting an electable leader for two terms unless Borat really f**** it up - but there’s every possibility of that when reality bites.

wanderlust wrote:I cant see Labour getting an electable leader for two terms unless Borat really f**** it up - but there’s every possibility of that when reality bites.

Depends on who puts up. 
The fact is, the party membership are pretty much left leaning, and will probably vote along those lines.
Rebecca Long-Bailey will be getting my vote. If she's on the ballot.

boltonbonce wrote:

wanderlust wrote:I cant see Labour getting an electable leader for two terms unless Borat really f**** it up - but there’s every possibility of that when reality bites.

Depends on who puts up. 
The fact is, the party membership are pretty much left leaning, and will probably vote along those lines.
Rebecca Long-Bailey will be getting my vote. If she's on the ballot.

To my way of thinking there is a big difference between idealism and reality.

Corbyn was unelectable to a great many traditional voters.

His stance on Brexit was ambiguous to say the least.  He didn't seem to want to lead the party on a Remain ticket, whilst at the same time didn't want to get behind the 'get it done' philosophy that won the election for Johnson, as most people had got heartily sick of Brexit by now.

Leadership is about leading - he didn't lead.

His ideology about achieving a social utopia was all well and good but only the first time voter generation and dyed in the wool left wing socialist believed that to be attainable - how would it be founded - and probably more pertinent, who would fund it and how could it ever be paid back?

The first time voter generation and the 'dyed in the wools' seem to live in their own 'bubble' and their views and opinions are reinforced by others inhabiting the same bubble they are in.  They can't accept/understand/relate to any views not consistent with their own and reject them out of hand as people being to dumb/stupid/vacuous to 'do the right thing'.

The reality is though that hard left socialism as propagated under the Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum banner is not palatable to the large majority as can be evidenced long before this election with the waves of scores of moderate Labour MP's giving up and walking away rather than be part of the parliamentary party under the current regime.  Is it any wonder then that moderate Labour voters rejected the party at the election too?

It's been clear from many Labour canvassers for some considerable time that 'Corbyn' as been an issue on the door steps of many - yet nothing was done about it.

It was clear to that Brexit 'burn out' was an issue and people wanted it to be resolved - and fast - yet no clear message came from Labour - nor it's leader!

There was a clear and obvious disconnect from the party to those who are natural supporters of it.  The ideological cabal which had taken leadership of the party went along the 'Longest suicide note in history' route by rejecting the feedback they were receiving (and which was contrary to their rhetoric) and again ended up with the same outcome as before.  It wasn't rocket science to see what was coming on the day - apparently they saw it themselves towards the end but even their own worst predictions were surpassed with the scale of defeat.

Brexit isn't going to be anywhere near as bad as the multitude of social media nutjobs predict.  The reality is life will go on pretty much as now for many years to come and the changes that will probably result in us being worse off than had we stayed, will come gradually and accepted by most as 'normal' at the time.

It's not in anyone's interest (the EU, the ruling party, the population as a whole) for things to turn out significantly bad for going down the Brexit road, trade will continue, movement of people to and from the country will still happen, life won't be any different that what is normal now.

For what it is worth I write this as someone who is a naturally leaning Labour voter and would have much preferred to have remained in the EU.

Labour/Corbyn should have led a strong and clear Remain campaign at the time of the referendum but were conspicuous by the absence of such - they probably thought as many did that Brexit wouldn't happen anyway.  Corbyn should have put country before party under May's administration, instead they went along the route of wanting Brexit to happen, then winning an election of the back of peoples dissatisfaction resulting from it, and finally when it had dragged on for so long and May was forced out, should have bit the bullet and accepted Brexit was going to happen and not wimped out of taking a lead - had they done they wouldn't have lost so many of their heartland seats.

To vote in Corbynistas like Rebecca Long-Bailey won't heal the divide and could well continue the toxicity that Brexit has caused and it's time for the party to become more in tune with the electorate again by moving more to the centre ground as the Conservatives have seemingly moved more to the political right.

Conservatives have won, Brexit will happen, we have to accept it and move on and not live in the past and cling to ideology that was rejected under Foot by the electorate in 1983 and again now in 2019.

Momentum/Corbyn is the Militant/Foot of this age and has produced exactly the same result as it did.

Do we never learn?

Power to the People eh?

Pretty much agree with sluffy's analysis of this and like him think Rebecca Long-Bailey is not the answer. There are far better candidates available. I would be happy with any of the other main contenders but think Angela Rayner would be most likely to unite the Labour party and give them a chance to recover lost ground. My biggest worry is that the useless twat Corbyn will hang on until his sycophants have stitched up a deal to get Rebecca Long-Bailey into position.

karlypants wrote:

gloswhite wrote:Welcome to the one-nation Conservative-run UK  

Hopefully, the abuse will now stop.

I will be celebrating tonight mate! 

Its nice having a break from all the biased reporting

Sluffy wrote:

boltonbonce wrote:

wanderlust wrote:I cant see Labour getting an electable leader for two terms unless Borat really f**** it up - but there’s every possibility of that when reality bites.

Depends on who puts up. 
The fact is, the party membership are pretty much left leaning, and will probably vote along those lines.
Rebecca Long-Bailey will be getting my vote. If she's on the ballot.

To my way of thinking there is a big difference between idealism and reality.

Corbyn was unelectable to a great many traditional voters.

His stance on Brexit was ambiguous to say the least.  He didn't seem to want to lead the party on a Remain ticket, whilst at the same time didn't want to get behind the 'get it done' philosophy that won the election for Johnson, as most people had got heartily sick of Brexit by now.

Leadership is about leading - he didn't lead.

His ideology about achieving a social utopia was all well and good but only the first time voter generation and dyed in the wool left wing socialist believed that to be attainable - how would it be founded - and probably more pertinent, who would fund it and how could it ever be paid back?

The first time voter generation and the 'dyed in the wools' seem to live in their own 'bubble' and their views and opinions are reinforced by others inhabiting the same bubble they are in.  They can't accept/understand/relate to any views not consistent with their own and reject them out of hand as people being to dumb/stupid/vacuous to 'do the right thing'.

The reality is though that hard left socialism as propagated under the Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum banner is not palatable to the large majority as can be evidenced long before this election with the waves of scores of moderate Labour MP's giving up and walking away rather than be part of the parliamentary party under the current regime.  Is it any wonder then that moderate Labour voters rejected the party at the election too?

It's been clear from many Labour canvassers for some considerable time that 'Corbyn' as been an issue on the door steps of many - yet nothing was done about it.

It was clear to that Brexit 'burn out' was an issue and people wanted it to be resolved - and fast - yet no clear message came from Labour - nor it's leader!

There was a clear and obvious disconnect from the party to those who are natural supporters of it.  The ideological cabal which had taken leadership of the party went along the 'Longest suicide note in history' route by rejecting the feedback they were receiving (and which was contrary to their rhetoric) and again ended up with the same outcome as before.  It wasn't rocket science to see what was coming on the day - apparently they saw it themselves towards the end but even their own worst predictions were surpassed with the scale of defeat.

Brexit isn't going to be anywhere near as bad as the multitude of social media nutjobs predict.  The reality is life will go on pretty much as now for many years to come and the changes that will probably result in us being worse off than had we stayed, will come gradually and accepted by most as 'normal' at the time.

It's not in anyone's interest (the EU, the ruling party, the population as a whole) for things to turn out significantly bad for going down the Brexit road, trade will continue, movement of people to and from the country will still happen, life won't be any different that what is normal now.

For what it is worth I write this as someone who is a naturally leaning Labour voter and would have much preferred to have remained in the EU.

Labour/Corbyn should have led a strong and clear Remain campaign at the time of the referendum but were conspicuous by the absence of such - they probably thought as many did that Brexit wouldn't happen anyway.  Corbyn should have put country before party under May's administration, instead they went along the route of wanting Brexit to happen, then winning an election of the back of peoples dissatisfaction resulting from it, and finally when it had dragged on for so long and May was forced out, should have bit the bullet and accepted Brexit was going to happen and not wimped out of taking a lead - had they done they wouldn't have lost so many of their heartland seats.

To vote in Corbynistas like Rebecca Long-Bailey won't heal the divide and could well continue the toxicity that Brexit has caused and it's time for the party to become more in tune with the electorate again by moving more to the centre ground as the Conservatives have seemingly moved more to the political right.

Conservatives have won, Brexit will happen, we have to accept it and move on and not live in the past and cling to ideology that was rejected under Foot by the electorate in 1983 and again now in 2019.

Momentum/Corbyn is the Militant/Foot of this age and has produced exactly the same result as it did.

Do we never learn?

Power to the People eh?

An excellent summary Sluffy. However, I think the Labour Party, and the country would benefit from a less aggressive leader, at this time, than Rayner. There is a runner mentioned , but her name escapes me at the moment, but she is a very sensible, fairly quiet, person, and her name has been mentioned in the press a couple of times.
As I've said before, all governments need a good opposition, and this one is no different.

I'm thinking of Lisa Nandy

gloswhite wrote:I'm thinking of Lisa Nandy

Definitely better than Rebecca Long-Bailey.

My reasoning re the Labour leadership issue is that many voters do have a social conscience and would agree with some of the policies that Corbyn has espoused were it not for politics currently being largely driven by uncertainty and fear as fleeing the EU has shown and increasingly by personality over substance. The voting behaviour drivers have shifted, but there is an enormous middle ground to be won back and it would take someone With statesmanlike qualities like Sir Keir To have a chance of doing that.
Centrist voters who used to determine elections have been pushed off the middle ground by emotive rhetoric and fear mongering lies and have jumped one way or the other - but they’ve not gone far so the opportunity is there for someone to reclaim that position 
With the nec currently running Labour into the ground I can’t see that leader getting elected for At least 2 terms. Moreover if Scotland gets independence that may be the final nail in Labour’s coffin as there won’t be enough ‘traditional” seats to win back. 
Lib Dem’s could seek to gain the middle ground but they have a huge amounts of ground to claw back so again at least 2 terms imo.
All this could be accelerated if things go really bad for Brexit though.
Now that the election is over will the Russia investigation be published in full?

London Mayor Sadiq Khan has blamed Labour's "catastrophic" defeat on Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and the "repeated failure to tackle anti-Semitism".

The Mayor of London said his party's election performance, which left them with 203 MPs nationwide, had "failed ... the sick, the poorest and the vulnerable".

Writing  on Facebook, the former MP for Tooting said: "If we are truly honest with ourselves, we knew in our hearts that Jeremy Corbyn's leadership was deeply unpopular with the British people and that we were extremely unlikely to form a Labour government last night.

"Labour's shocking and repeated failure to tackle anti-Semitism, and our inability to put forward a credible and believable set of priorities for governing have made a major contribution to the scale of this defeat."

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2019-12-13/sadiq-khan-blames-labour-defeat-on-corbyn-and-failure-to-tackle-anti-semitism/

Nandy is considering it. Will be an interesting choice when it comes.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/consett-man-general-election-radio-17416901


Not a happy man.